Tailgate & Public Service Leaks

Well, I thought it about time we start a new thread for the Tailgate/Ute-gate scandal given the length of the last thread. Thought I’d also toss in some new interesting tidbits that seem to be coming up as a consequence.

First interesting snippet is that Turnbull is legally liable for defamation, having made claims outside the security of parliamentary privilege. Rudd has, so far, made all his debatable claims in the House of Representatives. Turnbull knows this (he is a lawyer) but has decided he will not apologise unless Rudd makes an equivalent one. A somewhat interesting proposition from the man desiring to be the next Prime Minister.

Secondly, it would appear that Grech decided on his own to send the faxes to Wayne Swan’s home fax. Given the current suspicions surrounding the authorship of the fraudulent email (i.e. there are strong suspicions that Grech wrote it himself), this puts another very large whole in the Opposition’s argument against Swan.It also makes it quite easy to rebut the Opposition whenever they bring up their idea of “special treatment”.

Sure Wayne Swan got more faxes about John Grant. Thing is, we never asked him to. Oh, and wasn’t that the same guy you’ve had feeding you confidential information from Treasury deliberations? What other underhanded things did you get your stooge to perform in his trusted position? And so on…

All of this done under the protection of parliamentary privilege, but shown on the nightly news. It’s not a good situation for the Opposition. (Thanks to jane for the heads up on this snippet of info)

Finally, it would appear that remarks made by others in the previous thread on the Ute-gate scandal seem to have hit the mark. Turnbull has realised how badly this will damage his (covert) sources of information within the public service; stating that his cooperation with the AFP only goes as far as this specific leak. In other words, the Coalition has realised that if their sources clam up due to Grech being thrown to the wolves – they are going to have to get their information the hard way. Given how their minister-by-minister attack has stalled because of Turnbull’s stuff up, the Coalition needs every advantage they can get. Losing their moles would probably be more damaging than losing their leader, which is looking more & more likely everyday.

Oh, and apparently (breaking news) Malcolm saw the email last week and Queensland wins the State of Origin… again 🙂

And on to the discussion…

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283 Responses

  1. Just picking up on the mobius debate re Brough and women on the previous thread.

    “Adrian, to be honest – I too am kind of stumped as to the “women & Brough””

    Huh, on June 24th, 2009 at 4:08 pm Said:

    What Mal Brough did to women was the changes to the sole parent pension and the requirement they return to work when the kiddies turn 5.

    That is my recall as well, women’s groups and single mothers were not happy with the discriminatory welfare to work legislation. Single parents (majority women) were required to get paid work when their kids turned five, no guarantees that the work would only be in school hours because WorkChoices meant the employer dictated the terms. There was talk of ‘latchkey kids’ and removing the choice for single women to remain at home for their dependent children if that was their wish.

    WAA Submission to: The House of Representatives Standing Committee on Employment and Workplace Relations Re: Increasing paid workforce participation

    George Megalogenis and Kevin Rudd: Anti-culture warriors

    Megalogenis also points to the “unnecessary fights” Howard picked with “immigrants, single mothers, indigenous people and the under-35s”.

    The Howard government had explicitly rejected the nation’s outsiders, and they returned the compliment.

    Again, I’d note the deficiencies in Megalogenis’ methodology, but I’d also observe that leaked Liberal polling has demonstrated that the welfare changes which targeted single parents played a big role in losing them seats like Mal Brough’s and others which were demographically similar. The polling also suggests that women – who’d swung away from Latham in 2004 – swung heavily towards Rudd Labor.

    I also think that to many people the NT Intervention was seen as Aboriginals being used as a cynical political ploy/strategy for re-election by the Coalition (another Tampa). The Coalition had previously gone all out to de-fund and de-fang Aboriginal organisations and demonise Aboriginals with the ‘black armband view of history’ slur.

  2. With indulgence Mr Speaker – just back from SOO. Qld deserved winners. But I did with $230 on Inglis with first try – so it was not a total loss. 😀

    Very good post ben.

  3. It’s a very good point that Mr Turnbull could be sued for defamation. One really wonders what he was thinking last Friday! He clearly stepped way over the line there! It’s been suggested than Mr Turnbull might not reveal his sources to the Federal Police sighting parliamentary privilege. That would raise further questions.

    I concede that there may not be much of a case against Wayne Swan from the information we currently know. Facts have been presented in parliament and reported in the media which have given the impression that Wayne Swan might have treated Mr Grant favourably. That Mr Grant received no favourable outcome is not in dispute. It is reasonable that questions are asked of Mr Swan in regard to this matter.

    My understanding is that there were 4 emails sent to Wayne Swan’s home fax. Not all were from Mr Grech. Some were sent by one of his staffers – Andrew Thomas. There is still a phone call and the meeting with Ford Credit. They may all be trivial matters. I just took issue with the way that Mr Rudd came out and falsely claimed that the alleged fake email was the only basis for the opposition’s claims against Mr Swan. That was clearly false. Misleading and deceptive behaviour seems to be par for the course by the Liberals. As I suggested somewhere on this blog earlier, I had higher expectations of Labor than that.

    “apparently (breaking news) Malcolm saw the email last week ”

    If true that could make things very interesting indeed!

  4. Good find kitty – thanks for that. Adrian stands validated 🙂

    Anyhow, way too late for blogging tonight. ‘Night all.

  5. As I was driving home from work I heard on the news that Opposition members may claim ‘parliamentary privilege’ and refuse to participate with the AFP over the leaks.

    I also saw Turnbull on 7:30 report and wondered why won’t he just apologise to the government and the people over this whole attack on Rudd based on faked evidence. Maybe the public could be persuaded to forgive if Malcolm would just eat some humble pie and stop with the aggressive posturing and the ongoing attacks. It is the lack of remorse and refusal to admit wrong, apologise and back down that is now working against him. He didn’t look good when he kept trying to ‘have a go’ at Kerry O’Brien rather than answer the questions, came across as an arrogant bully.

    Do yourself a favour malcolm and ‘drop it like it’s hot’.

  6. kitty, Malvolio won’t do that. He’ll keep on and on with his obsessive attacks on Wayne Swan because he is incapable of admitting he’s mistaken about anything let alone that he’s wrong.

    The only way he’ll stop is if he can find someone else to blame for the fact that he’s a complete d@ckhead with a colossal ego!

    The house of cards is crumbling around him and all he can do is travel the same road. What a w@nker!

    Meanwhile, I wonder if the real witch hunt has begun as it appears likely that Grech wasn’t the only one feeding the opposition.

    I reckon they’ll be quietly sacked with the threat of legal action if they attempt to squeal to the press.I don’t suppose the government will want that little lot spruiked all over the place.

    What a proud legacy the Rodent has left-the public service so politicised that any incoming government will have to sack everyone to be certain they’ll be able to govern without leaking like a sieve.

  7. An explanation of by what means the email was declared fake would help.
    Apparently the content of the email in question was cut and pasted from emails that actually originated from Charlton.
    If that is the case then the allegations made may still stand irrespective of who may have composed the email sent to Grech, or their reasons for doing so.

  8. jane, on June 25th, 2009 at 1:54 am Said:
    “What a proud legacy the Rodent has left-the public service so politicised that any incoming government will have to sack everyone to be certain they’ll be able to govern without leaking like a sieve.”

    I don’t think ANY incoming government has ever found it any different. The only difference is that some were more street smart and others somewhat naive.

  9. Leaks help to curb march towards the secret state

    IT will come as little surprise to learn that The Australian is in favour of public service leaks. The more the better. Whistleblowing serves the public interest, increasing transparency, enforcing accountability and protecting democracy. More often, however, it is senior politicians from both sides, and not bureaucrats, who would have most to lose from leak inquiries. . . .

    Leaks to journalists or opposition politicians drawing attention to corruption, gross incompetence, abuse of powers or other conduct against the public interest are important in the functioning of a vigorous democracy. Public servants have been passing sensitive information to trusted journalists and parliamentarians for generations. . . .

    At least 300 federal and state laws contain secrecy provisions for no good reason other than the Orwellian excuse that the laws provide for secrecy. Judicious leaks that expose vital information in the public interest are essential to avoid the encroachment of the secret state, to which too many authorities aspire.

    Indeed.

  10. By the way,

    “Trunchbull”; “Malvolio”; “The Rodent”.

    Hilariously witty as these nicknames might seem to some sections of the commentariat here, to others they are a sign of poor form and cheap ‘point scoring’. One notes that the vast majority here use the proper surname of politicians under discussion – if not their full official title. I, for one, find these derogatory nicknames distasteful.

    /soapbox

  11. Apparently the content of the email in question was cut and pasted from emails that actually originated from Charlton.

    In the interests of fairness – have you got a link to that? I asked jane the same question for something that supports my viewpoint it is a beat-up.

    If it is just speculation on your part, that’s fine too – just so long as we know. This issue is already clouded with innuendo, allegations, and fraudulent sources – no need for us to confuse things further by adding our own. At least, not without knowing that their our own assumptions 🙂

    Nicknames: I don’t see the harm in it really. It clearly delineates the moon-bats from the ding-bats & this is not a formal blog in any sense of the word. We have bloggers using pseudonyms like “I Am The Walrus”, so using the nicknames the media gave our members of parliament is not out of place. Perhaps we simply need some good ones for Swan & Rudd 🙂

  12. Except for Neil Tony, but your point is a valid one. Though I used Rodent on occasion (it was after all given by his own party), it doesn’t help to name call no matter how smart you believe the name to be.

    John why does it not surprise me that you are still attempting to find guilt against the government from the faked email. Even if it was pasted together from government emails, the context is well and truly shot. I’m sure I could take the most innocent of emails and paste them together in such a way as to make the resultant email sinister and bearing no relation to the meaning and context of the originals that were its source.

    Glad people picked up that it now appears Turnbull met with Grech early last week and was shown the fake email then, but Malcolm knew of the existence of damning document before this, at least as far back as the 4th and maybe earlier. This means Turnbull has blatantly lied in several press conferences and media interviews as well as in parliament. I’m trying to find the article but the website keeps timing out. Turnbull has a history of this type of inventing even before politics, and when found out blusters his way stubbornly through until the fracas dies down.

    Turnbull is refusing to participate in any investigations into the email citing that no parliament member has ever participated in revealing the source of a leak (unless it’s from the opposite side I guess). This would be true for an ordinary leak and it was true for Downer’s office leaking highly classified intelligence documents, but we are talking about faking documentation and using it in an attempt to bring down the leader of a country, with noone calling for the resignation of the Prime Minister more stridently and more often than Malcolm Turnbull.

  13. Related to the topic of secrecy or otherwise in government, raised in the snippet of the The Australian editorial at 6:39 am above, here is an excerpt from a speech by Lindsay Tanner on June 22, 2009 at the opening of the Government 2.0 Taskforce:

    [P]erhaps the biggest challenge for government — and for this Taskforce — is build a new culture of openness, a presumption of openness.

    Indeed the Taskforce will play a pivotal role in the Government’s ambitious FOI reform agenda.

    It will help to drive a change in the way the bureaucracy has traditionally understood FOI from a ‘pull model’, where government information is only disclosed in response to FOI requests, to a ‘push model’ whereby government information is routinely and proactively made available in anticipation of demand.

    Both politicians and public servants have to overcome an old and reflexive mistrust regarding the release of information.

    We have to accept that in this new world, we won’t always know how information will be used.

    Citizens will assemble and combine it, or mash it, in ways that we can’t fully appreciate.

    We also have to accept that when we open ourselves further to public discussion, through chat rooms, blogs and online forums, we won’t always like what we hear.

    But if the new technologies and ways of using them mean that government is in closer and deeper contact with citizens it serves, and is harnessing their best ideas, the government will only benefit.

    And so, too, will Australian democracy.

  14. Hoss Hockey and Turdball have been all over the media, and their standard line appears to be, we will cooperate with any AFP inquiry, but we won’t cooperate when it comes to Godwin Bretch, citing parlimentary privilage. I think this is the oonly way they are going to save any face at all. They can’t really win, if they don’t cooperate they will appear guilty, if they do they will be proven guilty. The interview with Lindasy Tanner was great, he put it all into perspective. In short leaks and moles are part and parcel of the game, but when it comes to criminal activitios like fraud and conspiracy, then thats a different matter.

  15. So Hockey and Turnbull is going to hide behind parliamentary privilege…well if they do then there should be a full judicial inquiry!

    Hey, they have been demanding it the last few days so they allegedly have nothing to hide…lets get the truth.

  16. No scaper, they have been demanding a judicial enquiry into the government, specifically Swan’s actions, not into themselves and Grech.

    I guarantee the opposition will run a mile if the terms of reference for an enquiry include themselves and their moles.

    Let’s not forget it has been established there are other moles within Treasury and Grech was not alone in this. The last thing the opposition wants is for them to be outed.

  17. Tony, on June 25th, 2009 at 6:54 am

    I totally agree with you, it comes back to the old saying, “When Peter tells me about Paul, it tells me more about Peter than it does about Paul”

    B.Tolputt, on June 25th, 2009 at 7:16 am
    http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25686095-661,00.html

  18. Hmm, I don’t think parliamentary privilege will work for what Malcolm wants it to do. The brief I read only protects the “executive ministry” (i.e. the government) from needing to cooperate with the police / courts in the execution of their duties. The most the brief seems to allow Malcolm to get away with (in this matter) is his statements while in the House.

    His claiming that the AFP has never before been used to dig out leaks in the public service may be true. It does not, however, mean that such a use of the AFP is illegal.

    It is my impression that, even if Malcolm is reticent in his cooperation with the AFP, that they have enough legal powers to get to the bottom of the fraudulent email matter whether he likes it or not. No need for the full judicial inquiry for that.

    Given the fact the rest of the Liberal Party are distancing themselves from him (and dobbing him in to the media when they can) – Malcolm has alot to worry about.

    johnd: Thanks for that. Adrian/Mobius has a point that this means nothing in terms of guilt on the part of Labor, but it is good to know the full details.

  19. Just in case you missed it – THE MAROONS! QUEENSLANDER’s all won The State of Origin Football last night and made SoO HISTORY!
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    So Mr Turncoat and Shrek are now doing more backflips …

    As for continued speculation .. after a week all we know is:

    The email that was the foundation for all this was fake

    The faxes sent to the Treasurer’s office were not requested

    Godwin Grech looked uncomfortable at a Senate Hearing

    The rest is – well – speculation …

  20. Gee, why not broaden it to themselves and the informer(s), after all, it is a key issue.

    Judging by the actions of the government there might be something they wish to hide also, so I suspect it is not in their interest either.

    Judging by your pro government stand on just about everything you would prefer no real action because your heroes might be exposed for what they are, just another bunch of self serving politicians!

  21. Why not? Because there is no suggestion of criminal activity on the part of Labor. You are simply clawing around for a reason to support the judicial inquiry hoping for dirt to be found.

    Judging from you anti-government stand on just about everything, you would prefer any action that might prove your heroes justified. However they have been exposed for what they are, self serving politicians who accused the Prime Minister of lying to the public & demanded his retirement based on a fraudulent email.

    See how I did that – it’s easy to throw around opinion based on nothing but your own view of the world. Much harder to justify it when facts are against you, as they are in this case.

  22. Whistleblowing serves the public interest, increasing transparency, enforcing accountability and protecting democracy.

    Tony, if whistleblowing (and i do not believe manufacturing a fake document is whistleblowing) is considered to be such a good thing – why is it that Australia is one of the countries that has no real whistleblower protection legislation? Whistleblowers are prosecuted and their careers and lives destroyed in this country (just ask John McPhilbin on the subject).

    Shouldn’t we have some decent legislation implemented to protect whistleblowers?
    Grech IMO cannot be considered a whistleblower and even Malcolm fell short of trying to offer that up to Kerry O’Brien last night. There’s whistleblowing, there’s leaking and then there’s out and out fraud and forgery, all different things. The fake email falls into the fraud category.

  23. Tony, on June 25th, 2009 at 6:39 am Said:
    “Leaks help to curb march towards the secret state”

    In world affairs moles have played a very big role in helping maintaining world peace. Not only have they allowed so called enemies to get an insight into the others thinking and planning, and allowed them to outwit the other prior to any public confrontation, but they have provided unofficial lines of communication between different administrations where ideas can be floated away from the official political posturing and the need to maintain certain views.
    I think we all know that quite often, the relationship between the citizens of different countries that are able to mingle can be totally opposite the positions maintained by each government, and perhaps even more often, that portrayed by the media.

  24. scaper still attempting to find the government guilty to the end.

    They are not my heroes scaper, and yes they are just another bunch of self serving politicians I have been very disappointed in before utegate blew up.

    If you are so set on having a judicial enquiry on this then I suppose you wouldn’t mind visiting the past and being just as adamant in having an enquiry on how highly classified documents were leaked out of Downer’s office and into Bolt’s hands, plus quite a few other previous government malfeasances they quashed any investigations into?

    Please also show me this pro government stand in just about everything you accuse me of undertaking?

    I think from the start of this and on previous attacks against the government all I have called for is restraint, due care before making accusations and the sheer amount of banality and triviality in the attacks. If that is pro this government then so be it, I’ll wear the tag.

  25. johnd, on June 25th, 2009 at 8:58 am

    You forget John moles are a two edged sword and you are only presenting one edge.

  26. scaper …
    I’m pretty sure that parliamentary privilege would extend to a judicial inquiry.

    Michelle Gratten on RN this morning stated she didn’t see much point in a judicial inquiry given the other two inquiries going on at the moment. I have previously stated that I think one is unnecessary and a complete waste of time and money particularly given the other investigations that are going on.

    What exactly do you think a judicial inquiry will acheive scaper …?

  27. Mobius Ecko, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:03 am Said:
    “You forget John moles are a two edged sword and you are only presenting one edge.”

    It is up to whoever is handling the moles to determine which edge is being used.
    Perhaps you can elaborate on the second edge.

  28. A good post on ‘ute gate’ by Andrew Bartlett:

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/bartlett/2009/06/24/584/

  29. That’s true, Adrian. Moles can be a good thing, but they can also be used to bring down a legitimate government from within (such as could have happened in this case had the email not been easily proved fraudulent – say if it were a hard-copy letter).

    And on that point, just because moles are sometimes (often?) a good thing, does not make what they are doing legal. Civil disobedience has been used to great effect in moving society forward. That does not make the disobedience legal. Great leaders can & have been convicted of & jailed for crimes they enacted as acts against an immoral government or law. Moles are citizens like the rest of us and breaking the law carries the same legal consequences.

    Whistle-blowers (i.e. moles that expose illegal / immoral acts) I think are a special case that deserve protection by the law.

  30. Oe last comment on this before I get stuck into work,

    I reckon tailgate is the best name for this matter:

    While you can get some slipstreaming benefits from tailgating and it can intimidate the tailgatee the problem with tailgating someone is that if they slam on the brakes, you run up their arse and come a cropper.

    Most people that do it always think that they can react fast enough to the situation to avoid the crash, however to do this, you have to be looking a long way in front rather than just the car you are tailgating. Turnbull seems to have forgoten this and the crash is a spectacular one. We can’t help but slow down to look at as we drive past.

    Police are on the scene conducting an accident investigation. Speed seems to have been a contributing factor and the car Turnbull was driving appears to have been unroadworthy. The ute driven by Rudd appears pretty much unscathed.

  31. I really think it is important to have sources inside for oppositions to keep the government on its toes. Take for instance the AWB scandal. Although it is a breach of confidence and unethical it makes a democracy work. The problem here is that Turdball did no checking on his source. When cought it would have been better for hi to fold up his tent, apologise and walk away with egg on his face. As it is, he is continually telling untruths and talking political language to avoid scrutiny, and he is digging a bigger hole for himself. The moron Hoss Hockey has hitched his integrity and reputation (if he had any left) to Turdballs wagon heading under at a greta rate, and is still fighting. Joe public can see the childish defence a mile off, and both will be marked very hard in future polls. The credibility is not the issue here, thispowder will become dry in a few months but will be used to fire the cannons in the run up to the next election. A glaring issue here is that Turdball does not have the confidence of his own party, but there is an incredible void in those who have the ability to lead in the grand old LNP. Those with ability to lead (if any), wouldn’t accept the poisined chalice.

  32. Dave55, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:10 am Said: A good post on ‘ute gate’ by Andrew Bartlett:

    Dave,

    Why? What did he say that was “new” or “different”?

    Seemed quite ordinary to me did I miss something?

  33. Dave55, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:19 am Said:

    Unscathed is right, look at it. not even a patch of rust visible. Calling it a rusty ute was having us all on.

  34. John

    For instance you stated that moles have played a very big role in maintaining world peace, but moles have also played just a big a role in destabilising world peace.

    This instance of Utegate is an example of a mole attempting to destabilise a government, not assist it in governing. So moles can stabilise or destabilise, two edges.

  35. Dave55, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:19 am Said:
    I reckon tailgate is the best name for this matter

    Now that’s a good analogy, Dave! 😆

    …and a better read than Bartlett!

  36. TB

    Nothing new just points out the pointless of this whole exercise. This was nothing but a diversionary tactic for the Libs but it has blown up so much and they have invested so much of their credability in it that they (or at least Turnbull) can’t let it go.

    The whole saga never deserved the attention it was given by the Libs or the media. But as my tailgating analogy points out – it is now the car crash we can’t help but have a gander at.

  37. Kittylitter 8:56 am,,

    Of course manufacturing a fake document is not whistleblowing, Kitty. However, if reports are to be believed, Godwin Grech has been supplying information to the Liberals for some time, and some of that information might be what I’m referring to as whistleblowing.

    As a general principle, whistleblowing that draws attention to abuses of government power or process, as ‘the email’ initially appeared to do, is in the public interest, and should be encouraged. Pressure to disclose sources exerts a chilling effect on this kind of behaviour.

    (By the way, from my sketchy memory of what he said, John McPhilbin was not prosecuted; but, as you say, we would be best to ask him.)

  38. johnd, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:23 am

    …and your point is, jd?

    (Before you get carried away I reckon KR (a multi millionare) is a “dick” to accept this ute in the first place, just screams “…c’mon, ‘av a go at me ya mug…” (unfortunately MT did … and forgot the rules … it was declared … over two years ago)

  39. @Dave55:
    Best analogy I’ve read about this issue to date!

  40. The Lieberals are getting very desperate.

    So much so, that they even let “he that should never be let loose in front of a microphone” Tony Abbott – let loose in front of a microphone this morning.

    In typical form, Tony was towing the company line but couldn’t help but take things one step further by calling the Prime Minister and Wayne Swan both “liars.”

    Meanwhile Talculm’s performance on the 7.30 report last night was appalling. he simply attempted to laugh off every question put to him as if he is somehow “above answering questions put to him by the proletariat”.

    He just came across as an arrogant arsehole.

    It’s interesting that the Liberals have accused the Govt of “hyperventilating” over the ute-gate affair, when to my mind, it’s the Opposition who are working themselves into a frenzy over their lack of traction on the entire issue.

    When I was listening to Tony Abbott this morning, I was reminded of a line out a show I was watching last night:

    “Tony Abbott is like that guy in The Sixth Sense. He’s already dead. He just hasn’t realised it yet.”

  41. johnd, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:23 am

    Oh my god John, now we have a reason to sack the PM, calling a ute rusty when it really isn’t that rusty. Quick scaper call out the AFP and get a full judicial enquiry up and running. 😉

    There are better pictures around of the ute with the billboards removed and from different angles, and though I wouldn’t call the ute rusty, it is a little tarnished in places.

  42. Mobius Ecko, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:24 am

    Adrian, so I take it that this mole wasn’t being used to destabilise the opposition.

    I’m not so sure that your claim that moles can destabilise world peace is correct. Most clashes have escalated from public confrontations that made it almost impossible for either party to back down from.
    The cold war remained a cold war because of all the manoeuvring going on behind the scenes. Each party knew beforehand just how far they could push the other publicly, even Kennedy knew how far he could push Khrushchev on the Cuban missile thingo. He already knew what Khrushchev wanted as a trade off to save face, and depending on your point of view, Khrushchev could be seen as the real winner. Of course western media would never portray it that way.

  43. Apologies if this has already been mentioned..but following on from the article by Gerard McManus, as Turnbull and Abetz met with Mr Gretch prior to the Senate committee hearing then both Abetz and Turnbull will have to submit to interviews by the AFP.

  44. Tony, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:30 am

    No, what Grech (and the other moles in parliament) are doing is not whistleblowing at all. It is for purely ideological reasons giving an opposition information on what a government is doing so that information can be used by the opposition not to reveal malfeasance, but to denigrate and undermine the government’s standing with the public so as to eventually influence election outcomes.

    Huge difference between that and whistleblowing.

  45. Mobius ‘Deep Throat’ Echo 9:55 am,,

    Good to see you know so much more about the kinds of information provided, and the motives of those providing it, than just about anybody else here. Perhaps you should give the AFP a ring.

  46. Hmm : Re : Tailgate.

    Its probably a good descriptor for the process going on at the moment. The Opposition tried to force the Government off the road – fail.
    Since then they’ve been taigaiting the Government – who have been swerving and putting on the tail lights.

    Meanwhile the hoon driver in the Government seat (Swan) has been swapped out for ‘is little brother – Slick Kev. Who’s got no demerit points – and doesn’t drink.

    Meanwhile Mr Plod is looking into the antics.

    Tailgate. Yep that’s whats’ happening now.

  47. Bugger work …

    If Turnbull doesn’t fully cooperate with the AFP has he mislead parliament. 😉

    As for Parliamentary Privilege – I’m not sure how Turnbull thinks it extends to matters outside parliament. I can’t for the life of me see how it applies to whether or not he received material from a PS.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_privilege

  48. Meanwhile the hoon driver in the Government seat (Swan) has been swapped out for ‘is little brother – Slick Kev. Who’s got no demerit points – and doesn’t drink.

    Classic. What a perfect description.

    (I am off to the ACT now to get the bf’s new passport – I wonder if I can make it in time for QT???)

  49. if reports are to be believed, Godwin Grech has been supplying information to the Liberals for some time, and some of that information might be what I’m referring to as whistleblowing.

    I beg to differ again tony, I would say that Godwin Grech and others have been leaking to the Opposition for some time, not genuine whistleblowing. What corruption has Grech exposed? Grech in his own testimony said that Swan’s dept. representations to him were entirely appropriate and nothing was out of the ordinary.

    Whistleblowers are people who, by reason of their employment, come across information that reveals corruption, dishonesty or improper conduct in government or in private organisations.

    (min) “…Turnbull and Abetz met with Mr Gretch prior to the Senate committee hearing…”

    And the Opposition think there is no question of collusion and conspiracy with a witness to be asked and answered?

  50. That’s it Dave..it was because Turnbull and Abetz met with Grech outside of parliament that he obviously cannot claim parliamentary privilege re these.

    My understanding that once outside of parliament that both Turnbull and Abetz are Mr Ordinary Citizen and are subject to the same rule of law as everybody else.

  51. joni – live blog if you do make it!!

  52. This whole thing is beginning to get pretty tiresome. I reckon both Rudd and Swan helped out their mate, but it’s clear that it’s never going to be proven. Harping on about it is just going to turn people off. The best strategy for the Libs would be to simply STFU and let the investigation run its course. In order to do this, Turnbull needs to step down. He went all in on this, and whilst he may have been a bit stiff to some extent, he has lost and his continued presence as Opposition Leader serves only to focus attention of his stuff up.

    Joni, can you hold up a sign that says “Blogocrats Rule”?

  53. thanks D55, from your link:

    Parliamentary privilege is controversial because of its potential for abuse; a member can use privilege to make damaging allegations that would ordinarily be discouraged by defamation laws, without first determining whether those allegations have a strong foundation.

    You know, I think that Rudd is the genuine whistleblower here. He has exposed dishonesty, fraud, corruption and collusion between treasury officials and the Opposition!

  54. scaper…, on June 25th, 2009 at 8:48 am Said:

    “Judging by the actions of the government there might be something they wish to hide also, so I suspect it is not in their interest either.

    Judging by your pro government stand on just about everything you would prefer no real action because your heroes might be exposed for what they are, just another bunch of self serving politicians!”

    scaper, not so. My reaction is, is a full judicial enquiry really necessary? I don’t think so. I don’t think it will produce a better outcome than the current AFP investigation and is very expensive.

    I also think it might pay Malvolio to ease off on the preferential treatment riff. He’s hardly a cleanskin in the scenario.

    The recipient of his preferential treatment, Matt Hanbury, liberal donor and Rupert’s nephew, walked off with a lazy $10m of taxpayers hard earned, against departmental advice that only $2m should be granted.

    All in all, it looks like a spot of preferential treatment from the Member from Wentworth has a much better outcome than the alleged Rolls Royce treatment from the Treasurer.

    He should also come clean about the liberal moles in Treasury. I don’t think it would avail anything if their names were splashed over the front pages, but they should be removed from any position where they have access to sensitive information, or just plain sacked without references, which is my preferred option.

    The leaks were politically motivated. They leaked the information not because they thought there was any wrong doing on the part of the government or that there was a threat to the well-being of the country, but because they wanted to damage their employer, the elected government.

  55. So, the latest defence offfered-up by our Liberal friends is whistleblowing.

    This is nonsense.

    As others have pointed-out above, whistleblowing is the act of revealing information that discloses Government misfeasance-in-office. It does not extend to concocting and hawking-around fake documents.

    Whistleblowing is a vital activity and one that must be encourged via de-criminilisation. This is because whislteblowers assist the democtatic process by allowing people to see just what their representatives and Government have been getting up-to. in their name.

    Fraudsters, on the other hand, retard that process because any information they provide is, by definition, false and worthless. They are incapable of assisting people to make any informed judgments.

    A classic example of a true whistleblower is Andrew Wilkie.

    He was the fellow who leaked the Australian intelligence assessments that proved that Howard’s public statements about Iraq having WMDs (the rationale used to justify involving us in a war there) were false and groundless at the time.

    While Its nice to see our Liberal friends at last embracing the idea of whistleblowing, I seem to recall that their treatment of Mr. Wilkie was, well, somewhat harsher that what they now consider to be appropriate for such people.

    In fact, given the way they victimised and demonised Wilkie was for doing no more than telling the truth, it strikes me as somewhat bizarre that they’d now spring to the defence-in-principle of someone who has, it appears, done anything but tell us the truth.

  56. Ben

    The fact that QLD is completely irrelevant to this debate! We were robbed!

  57. …now I can’t even get it out properly… ‘The fact that QLD won’
    The QLDers were alleged to have had stomach bugs! My arse!

  58. yeah tony, we know that both sides make good use of leaks and quite often the leaks come directly from MP’s.

    You were trying to say that Grech and the Opposition were whistleblowing, an entirely different thing.

    (tony)As a general principle, whistleblowing that draws attention to abuses of government power or process, as ‘the email’ initially appeared to do, is in the public interest, and should be encouraged.

    How so, when the email is a concocted fake/forgery? There is no public interest to be served in making crap up solely to bring down the democratically elected government. Aren’t we then getting into the realm of traitors and treason?

  59. “Aren’t we then getting into the realm of traitors and treason?”

    Only “in principle” of course 🙂

  60. Good post evan.

  61. Kitty,

    as ‘the email’ initially appeared to do

  62. Did I mention yesterday GO THE MAROONS. I was a bit surprised to see TB of Qld posting, thinking that he would be nursing a very sore head.

  63. Tony, on June 25th, 2009 at 10:00 am

    Ah, facetiousness now. It has not been me who has been claiming to know all about what the government has been doing in regards to this and has labelled them guilty from the start. James is still at it, with not one piece of evidence but a faked email and unsolicited emails sent to the Treasurer’s home address, the government must still be guilty.

    And it wasn’t me that wrongly stated Grech was whistleblowing. I just pointed out that what he (plus others) and the opposition have been engaging in is not whistleblowing, but the attempted undermining of the government so as to have a chance at winning the next election. It is something done by both sides (and maybe even the minor parties as well), but it is not whistleblowing, which is protected under legislation, whilst this leaking of government information is illegal and punishable under the law. Leaking of sensitive, caveat and classified information goes to undermining our whole strategic well being, for once it goes out of the controlled domain of government security then it becomes uncontrolled and there is no guarantee where it will end up and how it will be used.

  64. By the way, concocting false emails gives whistleblowing a bad name! SO, who concocted it and why?

    And why is facing the truth and being truthful so hard, especially for politicians? I think I know.

    https://blogocrats.wordpress.com/2008/11/09/a-whistleblowers-persective-why-honesty-is-so-hard-to-do/
    A Whistleblower’s Persective: Why Honesty Is So Hard To Do
    Posted on November 9, 2008 by johnmcphilbin

    We hear a lot of corporate and government leaders speaking about the greater need for integrity, honesty, and systematic transparency. Yet, at a deeper level we all feel let down by many of the broken promises they make, however, that doesn’t stop us from hoping that one day, a leader, or leaders will actually deliver on what they continually promise.

    In the meantime, what I would propose is a more critical approach in assessing and challenging what our corporate and government leaders espouse as ideal behaviours and actions and how that actually translates in ‘real life’. I call it ‘Discussing Undiscussables’, which is a reality based approach that should bring us all greater protection from ourselves, because let’s face it, we have seen the enemy and the enemy is us. By keeping silent about the obvious gaps between high sounding rhetoric and the failure to ‘walk the walk’, we only have ourselves to blame.

    Having said that, this is not as easy as it first sounds, because there are obvious pitfalls associated with boldly challenging those in positions of power. It is no fun being a lone ‘whistleblower’, in fact, you sometimes stand a better chance of howling at the moon and being heard, than you do by standing on your principles and being heard.

  65. Crikey:

    Grech affair a setback for government 2.0

    While a hopeful digerati (still waiting for the revolution) look hopefully towards the Australian Government’s government 2.0 project, a much more powerful message has been sent by the government’s heavy-handed approach to the Grech affair. That message is that we, the politicians, control who gets told what and how. The heavy-handed use of the federal police, including real-time updates on the progress of the investigation (and a stream of unsourced rumours of dark deeds), will send a chill through an already timid and cowered public service. There is no mood for openness and inclusion here. As you were social media advocates, it’s business as usual.

  66. It’s pretty funny watching the contortions of Mal & Co.’s apologists, as they desperately try to pin something, anything onto Kev and Swan – talk about imaginative minds !

    Must be pretty disappointing to have been sucked in by their “heroes” though, and better to try and grasp something out of the ashes of defeat, no matter how hyperbolic, it must surely be better than facing the truth.

  67. Off Topic (just had to happen with Miglo being unavailable). 83% of the jail population in the NT is indigenous. Indigenous people are 75% more likely to be given a custodial sentence compared with white people. That is, if you front up to court and your skin is a darker hue then you will be locked up but if your skin is a paler hue then you will be given community service. Shall now get down from the soap box.

  68. Good point Evan, Allan Robert Kessing is another example.

    Blowing the whistle on hypocrisy

    http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/janetalbrechtsen/index.php/theaustralian/comments/blowing_the_whistle_on_hypocrisy

    MEMO TO MEMBERS OF THE HOWARD GOVERNMENT: next time you pack your bags and jump aboard a plane at one of the nation’s airports give thanks to Allan Robert Kessing. You can feel that much more secure about travelling due to his efforts to expose dangerously lax security at the nation’s airports, issues such as surveillance blind spots and airport workers with serious criminal convictions. Now, at least, you can be certain that David Hicks won’t be turning up as a baggage handler when he gets out of prison next year.

    It was not always so certain. Thanks to Mr Kessing, a former Customs officer, the federal Government ordered a major review of airport safety. That review, by British aviation security expert, Sir John Wheeler confirmed that policing at our major airports was “often inadequate and dysfunctional”. His report recommended co-ordination between state and federal police, special police commanders to combat terrorism and organised crime at airports, a more rigorous system for issuing Aviation Security Identification Cards to airport employees and tougher filters to rout out those with criminal convictions. The Howard Government responded promptly, accepting all the recommendations under a $200 million package to better protect our airports from criminals and terrorists. Good news for all of us.

  69. Min, what are the statistics of the actual crimes committed? Not make a prejudgement but (purely hypothetically speaking) if one group is only in court for misdemeanours & the other for felonies – I could make those statistics 100% to 0% jail-times.

    Those numbers have no context without the crimes percentages…

    If you want (and have a link), I can put up a thread for the subject.

  70. Adrian Mobius ‘Strip’ Echo of Nowra 10:50 am,

    I’m glad you found my comments facetious.

  71. from tony’s link: The heavy-handed use of the federal police, including real-time updates on the progress of the investigation (and a stream of unsourced rumours of dark deeds), will send a chill through an already timid and cowered public service.

    Of course there’s been no precedents like Haneef and the vilification of David Hicks by the Howard govt. and the AFP, has there? Andrew Wilkie, Gerard McManus and Michael Harvey, Scott Parkin?.

    Australian government instigates move to jail journalists:

    …But Howard personally backed the legal action, saying that while he regarded the two journalists as �good blokes�, it was �worthwhile preserving the principle that the government does have a right in the public interest of conducting some confidential discussion�.

    Likewise, Howard�s departmental secretary, Dr Peter Shergold, recently told a conference: �If some people seem surprised that I have called in the police to deal with leaks, they shouldn�t be�I always have and I always will.�

    AFP Commissioner Mick Keelty recently told a Senate estimates committee that between 2000 and June this year, eight people had been charged under the secrecy provisions of the Crimes Act. Six were convicted, and two cases were still pending in the court. Between 2002 and June 2005, ministers and their departments referred 37 leaks to the AFP for investigation.

    The AFP recently questioned Marcus Priest, the legal affairs editor of Australian Financial Review, over the source of a briefing alleged to have come from the Workplace Relations Department. Last November, AFP officers raided the Canberra office of the National Indigenous Times in search of cabinet documents relating to Aboriginal welfare…

  72. Apologies: off topic Ben, this has been the subject of investigation for some considerable time. My former criminal law lecturer has been working on this for at least the past decade: Google Books Link

    David’s book is well worth a read.

    This is mostly due to misdemenours such as being locked up for public drunkeness, the 3 strikes and you’re out and a young lad locked up for stealing a packet of Tim Tams. You can imagine my shock when I learnt that my son’s partner could not breast feed my (very gorgeous..and did I mention that she’s already crawling at only 6 months and loves books) grand-daughter in public in Cairns. I asked: What are you taking a bottle for (we were off to the brekkie smorgasbord) and son said, M* isn’t allowed to breast feed in public.

  73. John McPhilbin, on June 25th, 2009 at 10:39 am Said:
    …now I can’t even get it out properly… ‘The fact that QLD won’
    The QLDers were alleged to have had stomach bugs! My arse!

    Just another *false leak* – JMc!!!! 😆

    QUEENSLANDER!

    Min, two beers and a WT (whose been a good boy, then?) – weekend might be a bit different (did I tell you its my birthday in 4 days time – expecting a CD from, sreb) Saturday night we light up a fire in the backyard – just family – chestnuts, potatoes (ham and chook roasted in the BBQ) – Sunday arvo a mate’s party (same b/day as me) used to be in a band with him and I’m opening up the “show”, be a few ex musos there should be a good day … Monday to the seafront with friends – busy, busy, busy …

  74. Howard spent considerable amounts of AFP resources (a point they once complained about in seeking more funding) in purely tracking down leaks from government and prosecuting those who leaked (unless it was his ministers like Downer doing the leaking of course, e.g. Wilkie).

    Howard was also not afraid to threaten the use of anti-terrorist legislation against those receiving the unauthorised information.

    This government has (half heartedly) sought to open up the process and have a more transparent process and they are rewarded by having a falsified document used against them.

  75. TB

    Hence the reason the Blues were misled into believing that had a chance! It’s corrupt I tell you!

  76. Thanks for that link Kittylitter 11:10 am,

    You’ll note that I alluded yesterday to those journalists.

  77. Yes TB..I have written this fact re your birthday in BIG BOLD letters on the calendar. And who haven’t I sent a pic of the grandie’s christening dress to? Just let me know if anyone has missed out.

    Ohhh double yum, chestnuts. Are these of the edible variety or a description of the music that you play?

  78. @Min:
    Looked briefly at the link, but could not find the details you mentioned. Of course, I didn’t read the entire book – just the portion linked to.

    That said, the situation you describe on breast-feeding – that’s not not good, but not indicative of a systemic failure (as the jail-sentence stats would be), but of a few loud-mouthed (possibly racist) prudes. Technically speaking though, there would be nothing anyone could do should she decide to breastfeed in Cairns – it is not illegal. White, indigenous, or otherwise.

  79. This government has (half heartedly) sought to open up the process and have a more transparent process and they are rewarded by having a falsified document used against them.

    The true extent of how open and accountable the current government intend to be is unfolding before us in their reaction to this matter.

  80. Tony, on June 25th, 2009 at 11:09 am

    Yep not serious at all and has to be nonsense.

  81. Adrian, you really have no grasp of language or context, do you. I said what I think. In the same post, I said that despite that, in the absence of proof, the accusation cannot be sustained therefore he who made the accusation should resign. You’re now invoking some sort of “thought crime” clause into the whole thing. Don’t dare form an opinion on gut instinct. People form opinions everyday on many many things, and often make very important decisions based on them. I do not have to be able to prove in a court or justify to a court why I might form opinions about various matters.

    Now, my opinion on Rudd is that he is a snake. The reason I think that is because I consider him to be a pathological liar. This opinion of him was formed largely when he trashed the reputation of that bloke when trying to create the image of the street kid who made it. He has told lies of convenience a number of times since. I find it very difficult to believe, therefore, that that same bloke did not at the very least ensure that it was known that he was mates with Grant when that finance was being sought. However, in the absence of sufficient evidence to sustain the charge, the bloke making the charge, a fair old serpent in his own right, ought to resign. This does not mean that there are no longer grounds for suspicion. I continue to hold those suspicions. As I am entitled to do in a free, democratic society.

  82. Adrian – may I suggest you back off a little on James here?

    This is three times in as many days you’ve had a go at him for a reasonable post. He stated it was his thoughts and he stated it would not be proven (i.e. there is not enough facts on the table to make the case). He is as entitled to his opinions of Rudd as we are to our opinions of Howard.

    I know how it is when you have history with a poster, but at least leave it until there is sufficient cause… such as him calling you a tool or tosser. 😛

  83. Ben, it was just an indication that this issue re our indigenous population being over-represented in jails has been an issue for a very long time. I don’t have much time as this is Jeff’s last day at work but a Google of David Heilpurn would (hopefully) provide further information.

    The example re breast feeding is indicative of being treated differently. Can you imagine a bylaw in any southern jurisdiction containing this.

  84. There is a by-law on Aboriginals not being allowed to breast-feed whilst others can? If so, that is definitely worth a thread on it’s own… if I can find something to back it up – I’ll weave an article around it.

    Don’t bother finding anything more on the subject until you have time. Anything you can find (when you get time) would help me put together something interesting for us all to discuss as this issue (and Malcolm’s career) wind down 🙂

    Note: this link implies there are no specific laws about it in Cairns, but is not definitive.

  85. James off limits, got it.

    Guess I still have some pent up issues. Breath deeply, inhale, hold, hold, slowly exhale….

    Ben: Not off-limits, just be reasonable… Wait until he makes an ridiculous statement of fact or calls you a moron before going all “outraged Opposition Leader” on his ass 😛

  86. It seems a real possibility to me, given the evidence so far, that the car dealer in question may have been deliberately targetted in the scam being run to attempt to frame Rudd and Swan.

    Much more likely explanation than the above contortion by James, I reckon.

  87. Min, on June 25th, 2009 at 11:21 am

    re: Chestnut. Both! LOL! Very clever!

    James – don’t you dare start to reach conclusions using the same logic as, Neil 😯

    (speaking of whom?)

  88. To be fair, Ben, and thanks for your support, the reason he is doing it is because throughout Blogocracy times and more recently as Blogocrats, I have run a bit of a campaign fact checking a lot of the things that Adrian presents as “fact”. He feels picked on but all he needs to do is use appropriate language or do some checking before he posts.

    Ben: Hey, I’m all about checking the facts – so feel free to continue! I disagree with you (quite alot generally), but (lately) I cannot fault you about what you claim as facts & what you state as personal opinion 🙂

  89. I’m firmly of the belief that Malcolm Turnbull and Joe Hockey are now living in a parallel universe.

  90. Ben..it’s all women. But everyone knows who the rule is aimed at. Likewise in Cairns one (any color) cannot purchase a wine cask prior to 4.30pm. I think that Miglo would be the person to ask as he is our resident expert on Aboriginal issues. My only knowledge is due to being an anti-discrimination advocate and son’s partner (and my 3rd ‘daughter’) being 1/2 TSI.

    I believe that Migs will be home by the weekend.

  91. Reb: can you please provide a description of this universe?

  92. No calling Senator Eric Abetz, Erica Betz, then? It was not a dress, it was a toga! I think Ken Henry might be a Scientologist, too…they have a thing for audits and ‘clear’.

  93. Not off limits, Adrian, at all. But debate me, or if you’re going to mock me, at the very least read properly my posts and seperate opinion from speculation from direct accusation. I am very careful mostly to distinguish between them. And when I’m proven wrong, I’m pretty quick to withdraw.

  94. reb, on June 25th, 2009 at 11:39 am

    sreb, luckily for me I’m just visiting your planet … none of this happens where I come from …

    Maybe its time for Mr Turncoat and Mr Hoss to go back to the “Centre” …

  95. Min,

    I recall some years ago the beak at Byron Bay Court had a nursing mother tossed-out of his Court room.

    Every caftan-clad nursing-mother for miles around was there the next day to give him a piece of their minds. This is Byron, we’re talking about. The meeja also turned-up in droves.

    He coped a right caning over it and I believe Byron Court House is a nursing-mother friendly precinct these days.

  96. TB,

    I thought the players Melbourne Storm have on loan from the Maroons 😉 did a pretty fair job last night.

  97. Adrian, point me to one of my comments that have accused anyone to be wrong in this saga, I have put questions here that need answering and I suspect that we will never know the truth!

    I bet if this was the last government the usual suspects here would be screaming for blood which to me is ‘footy supporter’ mentality and I laugh at the ones here that accuse me of being on either side!

    By the way Adrian, ever since you accused the last PM of being responsible for the ‘Bottom of the Harbour’ scheme I find it difficult to take your comments seriously…obviously reading from the Labor handbook and you have on several occasions proved my point.

    Jane, I was not referring to you in my last comment.

  98. A reasonably compelling counter-construct to Tony’s nominal position from, and as developed by, a commenter over at the LP:

    I confess to feeling more than a little nauseous at how this event has played out, and what it reveals about successive governments’ and oppositions’ reliance on non-official, non-transparent, and largely below-the-radar information channels to advance their agendas — and how this fails to serve the public interest or see the will of the people implemented.

    There is, I think an irreconcilable tension between the need to preserve the integrity of an elected government and secure it from sabotage, versus the imperative to prevent the state from gaining a tyrannic stranglehold on information. Public servants are grist to that mill. Leaks are the consequence of individuals unable to separate their conscience from their duties, but without the ethical courage to resign their positions.

    I don’t know where all this fits into the discourse about ‘politicisation of the public service’. To my mind, a government is elected, and public service agencies are there to implement legislation crafted by the people’s House. If a public servant can’t do that, they should resign. If they honestly believe there is a tyrannic stranglehold on power by a government, their ethical duty as a citizen is to resign and agitate to bring down that government at the ballot box. To try to do it by white-anting and leaking is a betrayal of democratic principles and processes.

  99. By the way, in light of what’s just happened on this thread, I’d like to make something clear: I’m happy to take moderation advice from Joni, Reb, and their alter-ego Kamahloderator. Anyone else I would most likely ignore.

  100. Nice counterpoint, Legion… and one I agree with regardless of who is in power. What I found nice was the explicit mention of the fact that divulging information outside proper channels is a federal offence with gaol time.

    Whistle-blowers release secret information because it demonstrates illegal / corrupt activities. This is something that should be protected, as it is a core principle of an accountable government.

    Moles (in this context) release secret information because they are ideologically opposed to the government in power and wish to bring it down. This is unethical as a member of the public service (or really any organisation) and should not be protected.

    It is possible to be both a whistle-blower & a mole (given my definitions), but only the first should be protected &/or justified. The other is (as Legion’s commenter suggests) simply betraying the principles of democracy & breaching the ethical standards they agreed to.

  101. @Tony:
    Good thing no moderation was made then 🙂

    As you can see I made suggestions only. No moderation was necessary given everyone is acting reasonably 🙂

  102. “THE Senate has rejected a Government request to refer for investigation any false or misleading evidence that might have been given to its OzCar inquiry hearing last week.”

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25688192-12377,00.html

  103. B.T@12:08

    ‘No moderation was necessary given everyone is acting reasonably :)’

    ???? . . . .I wont mention football, I wont . . . . .

  104. david, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:21 am Said:

    “I really think it is important to have sources inside for oppositions to keep the government on its toes. Take for instance the AWB scandal.”

    AWB would fall under whistleblowing, imo, david. The government was giving hundreds of millions of dollars in bribes to the leader of a country the Prime Minister and Foreign Minister of the day had accused of possessing WMDs and were in fact urging an illegal invasion of that country on “evidence” they knew was false.

    Somewhat different from what has occurred in the so-called utegate affair. I refuse to call it a scandal; the only scandalous behaviour is the cynical attempt by the opposition to besmirch and unseat the PM and Treasurer on evidence it seems to be increasingly clear they knew was fabricated. Oh! Is history repeating itself?

    reb, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:35 am Said:

    “Tony Abbott is like that guy in The Sixth Sense. He’s already dead. He just hasn’t realised it yet.”

    reb, or that guy that used to be Immigration Minister, Phillip Ruddock.

    Allen Kessing suffered similarly to Wilkie at the hands of the Howard government. He only went public when all his attempts to rectify a wrong doing through official channels were ignored. His reward-link. And I’m unimpressed that the Ruddster hasn’t intervened on HIS behalf. Sorry to shout, joni, but I can’t get tags to work.

    TB, what’s that about a significant date in four days? I still don’t know what is significant about it; you’ve been far too subtle. Say what you mean, my good man, don’t be shy.

  105. He only went public when all *their* attempts to rectify a wrong doing through official channels were ignored.

    Grrrr! *his* attempts
    Ben: Fixed 🙂

  106. Jane, it’s TB’s birthday, I think he wants a present or something.

    I might send him a bottle of WT…one of those wee little bottles, lol!

  107. Scaper, that’s a disgrace that the Coalition and Mr Fielding voted that motion down. What have they got to hide? What’s Fielding doing blocking that?

  108. Al, I don’t know why Fielding voted it down…one suspects that we don’t deserve to know the truth.

  109. scaper…, on June 25th, 2009 at 12:27 pm Who’d have known? He’s just been so subtle. Lol. Bugger, I’d better not forget now I’ve made such an issue of it.

  110. Al, on June 25th, 2009 at 12:28 pm

    God told him to do it; God is real without science, global warming isn’t with science; simple.

  111. Blocking bills that you don’t agree with is fine. Blocking proper accountability – well that’s something else. Bring on the CPRS votes and bring on the Double Dissolution.

  112. Evan, on June 25th, 2009 at 11:47 am Said: Every caftan-clad nursing-mother for miles around was there the next day to give him a piece of their minds.

    And not only but also, every tracky-dack and neatly suited Mum and these included Delvene Delaney and Olivia Newton-John. Mind you, Byron Bay does not have a place to breast feed one’s littlie unless it’s the local public toilet (and you wouldn’t want to go there). It was an indication how Byron has sadly become so tourist/drugs focused in the past decade..nothing family friendly about the place.

  113. More like Double Disillusion!

  114. Legion

    Also a very good article calling out both sides in the partisan games they play depending on whether they are in government or not. I hate both equally on this front.

    Though it’s Pure Poison and some don’t like its frame, this article is worth the read:

    It’s only a problem when YOU are hypocritical

  115. In passing.

    The gall of Heffernan to vote down an inquiry into the falsification of the document but to demand investigation into whether or not Grech received any “adverse actions” after his testimony.

  116. reb, on June 25th, 2009 at 12:44 pm Said:
    “Talculm did see da email…”

    Given the email was sent mid Febuary, he must be nearly the last person to have sighted it.

  117. Reb, you’re a bit slow off the bat – I have that linked in the article since last night 🙂

    Very interesting though and I think a nigh final nail in the coffin of Malcolm’s leadership career…

  118. Ben..it certainly will not be a good look when a leader of the opposition is interviewed by the federal police.

  119. My apologies Ben.

    I’m a bit slow this week. My real time job has been interfering with my blogging!

  120. Adrian 12:50 pm,

    That’s quite a reasonable article by Jeremy Sear (it’s just a pity he doesn’t do more of this kind of writing and less obsessing over what Andrew Bolt writes).

  121. Reb, any chance of getting a thread up on something different?

    It must be getting tedious for people that ain’t hard core political junkies!

  122. Suggestion Reb,

    I just put a link to Sen Fielding’s “Assessment of Minister Wong’s Written Reply” over on the Tuesday thread. Maybe we could dissect that?

  123. A point re leaking is that it gets to be a country run by bureaucrats….We will decide what to leak and under which circumstances we will leak.

  124. Mobius Ecko, on June 25th, 2009 at 12:50 pm Said:

    I guess it comes down to whether or not you feel a stage play is compromised because the actors that play the hero and the villian alternate in their roles.
    The villian is always the villian irrespective of who fills the role. Some fill the role better than others, thats all.

  125. Amazing! Since this issue came to light..over 14,000 hits. Well done guys for keeping us in tune with what might become one of the VIP issues re the future of the Liberal Party.

  126. There’s nothing to see here – move along people hehe

    Also today, Treasurer Wayne Swan – who has been accused of providing preferential treatment to Brisbane car dealer John Grant – repeatedly refused to say whether he had personally called any car dealers other than Mr Grant.
    In an interview on the ABC’s AM program, he was asked by reporter Emma Griffiths “how many other dealers did you speak to directly on the phone? Even if it is just for two minutes, how many other dealers?”

    “Well it’s a matter of public record that I spoke to Mr Grant”, Mr Swan replied.

    “How many other dealers?”, Ms Griffiths asked.

    “Well it’s a matter of public record that I spoke to Mr Grant and I spoke to many other people and many other…”, Mr Swan said.

    But Ms Griffiths then asked Mr Swan to “put it on the public record who else you spoke to. What other car dealers?”

    “Well I have put it on the public record that I spoke to Mr Grant, Emma, but that is simply irrelevant…”, Mr Swan said.

    “But you’re not answering the question Mr Swan”, Ms Griffiths replied.

    “Well it’s not exactly the right question. That is irrelevant Emma to the fact or the claims that have been put forward that somehow some special treatment was given to Mr Grant”, the Treasurer said.

  127. Tony, on June 25th, 2009 at 1:01 pm

    He does Tony in fora outside of Pure Poison. You have to remember what Pure Poison is for. And lately it has been Ackerman and Blair getting the treatment.

  128. So it boils down to either your a leaker against us or or leaker with us …?

    Time I did me walk ‘roun’t block …

  129. I’m wondering about Mr Grech’s hospitalisation. It seems to have come about as a direct result of pressure he’s been under. My theory? If you don’t have anything to hide you have nothing to be afraid of – then again, we can all react in different ways – his reaction nonetheless looks suspiciously like and adverse reaction to the truth being exposed. Or is his condition unrelated to the stress he’s been under?

  130. …and davo Swan spoke to Grant (to which Swan has always admitted to and never stated he didn’t) and not other car dealers.

    Grant has stated that there was no talk on getting any favours and Grant never received any favouritism.

    Rudd stupidly took a ute as a gift from a friend in an election campaign, which he fully declared up front, and had a forged email manufactured to implicate him in a non-existent impropriety on that gift of a ute.

    Swan spoke to the same person who Rudd received the ute from two years earlier, and Swan had emails he never asked for faxed to his home address by the same person who may have forged the email to falsely implicate Rudd.

    In all this the dealer and friend did not receive one iota of favouritism or monetary advantage out of the OzCar scheme.

    What’s your point?

  131. John McPhilbin, on June 25th, 2009 at 1:38 pm Said:

    He’s as guilty as sin.

    That’s why he expressed “the pain” from the “burden” he was carrying into work last Friday morning to the senators at the Friday “Inquisition”.

    He was shitting himself with worry………..!

    If you have nothing to hide then what’s the problem ?

    I’ve testified in Court a few times. It’s never streesed me out as all you can do is tell the truth as best you can recall.
    In fact I quite look forward to it as a diversion from the usual tax and accounting stuff. Except for the wait outside the Courtroom of course.

    So nothing should be such a “burden”………provided you got nuffin’ ta hide………!

    I reckon he’s toast !

  132. Tony – new thread on desired topic up here

  133. Or is his condition unrelated to the stress he’s been under?

    John McPhilbin, on June 25th, 2009 at 1:38 pm Said:

    I reckon if you looked like him you’d be pretty stressed out as well.

    And what drugs were his parents on naming their kid “Godwin”.

    Geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez !

  134. I’ve been hoping this would eventuate.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25688412-601,00.html

    “He said new evidence was coming to light every day regarding problems with the tender processes, inflated project management fees, and gross overcharging.”

    Yep, I have concerns with Bligh and QBuild in house pricing and tendering.

  135. Speaking of leaks..this might be the only time that I have to post now that hubby has finished work.

  136. Watching House of Reps Question Time. The first three questions by the Coalition have been asked (about John Grant) by none of them by the Leader of the Opposition. Wonder if that’s significant?

  137. Al..apologies, for yesterday arvo. I was thinking that you might be somebody else.

  138. Actually, I think it would be bad form for Swan to name other dealers he rang. They may not want their names mentioned for whatever reason. That’s not to say I’m convinced he did ring others, but if I were one of the alleged dealers, I’d prefer to keep any begging for money to keep my business afloat out of the public domain.

    John McPhilbin, on June 25th, 2009 at 1:38 pm In Grech’s defence, he is apparently a very shy loner, so all this media attention has probably been more than he can handle.

    Let’s not forget how aggressive the meeja (shudder!!!!) can be if they scent blood. And the poor bugger’s house was egged. I don’t know if I would be travelling too well under the circumstances. And there’s been plenty of people in the public spotlight who have had serious flip outs.

    IATW, being grilled at a senate hearing could be a lot more nerve-wracking. Just imagine someone like Faulkner giving you the third degree!

    Yeah, schools which are slated to amalgamate and not due for closure for years, which the Australian for some reason just couldn’t spare the column space to report.

    I am also deeply suspicious of school principals who complained that they had been allocated funds but didn’t know why and for what.

    My understanding is that schools had to lodge a detailed request including costings for funds for the projects they wanted financed. So were these principals bypassed when the application was discussed, fine tuned and completed and if so, why?

  139. Bernard Keane

    In a comment that may or may not be loaded with significance, Grech’s Departmental Secretary Ken Henry this morning said “all will be revealed” in relation to the fake email affair and Grech’s relationship with the Coalition.

    Turns out Grech was also Howard’s go to man in relation to the previous government’s pork on laying out large amounts of money for sporting venues to win Howard’s battlers.

    “Issues relating to sports and sporting ground redevelopments fell within the responsibilities of my Branch whilst I was in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet,” Grech, who by then was back in Treasury, wrote to Rose. That would presumably come as a surprise to DCITA’s Sports branch, which oversaw exactly those issues.

    So Howard took responsibility for sports funding away from the government agency responsible for it and handed it over to Grech who was then in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet.

    What a web has be woven by Howard, one that never stops unravelling and causing trouble.

  140. Thanks Min.

  141. My father taught me to not accept gifts or assistance as I would be asked for same down the track with interest.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25688676-12377,00.html

  142. Just imagine someone like Faulkner giving you the third degree!
    jane, on June 25th, 2009 at 3:07 pm Said

    Faulkner would be like being whacked with a pillow compared to the QCs and Barristers I’ve had to put up with.

    If you have nothing to hide then nothing is too harrowing in Court.

    In fact it can sometimes become tiresome being asked the same question in half a dozen different ways.

    Besides a judge/or jury can always see when an inquisitor is just being a persistent dickhead trying to get an answer he wants by trying to trip you up.

  143. Yet funnily enough, he hasn’t gotten anything from it.

  144. “Yet funnily enough, he hasn’t gotten anything from it.”

    Yes, that appears to be the case.

  145. scaper.

    How different The Australian reports it to The Age who give a more detailed story and explanation along with who the person was that raised this furphy, initials MT.

    Grant was but one businessman to attend and it has never been hidden, least of all by Rudd, that Grant is his friend.

    They hunt him there, they hunt him here, they hunt him everywhere.

    Is this going to be raise every single instance where Rudd has met someone, flew to China and opened his mouth and dared to look sideways at someone he knows in some vane long shot a nerve might be hit and Rudd will crack, fall down on his knees and confess to being the greatest usurper of due process since John Howard and then commit seppuku?

  146. In addition I think Malcolm Turnbull better be a little more circumspect in raising all these past dealings between Rudd and Grant unless he has absolute genuine evidence of something untoward. I know Malcolm is now utterly desperate and attempting anything to save his leadership, or as he goes down, attempt to take Rudd down with him, but Malcolm’s past appears to be dirtier than Rudd’s and the $10 million to a mate to make water from a blue sky has already been raised a few times in parliament since Malcolm started UteGate.

    Malcolm might not like RainGate.

  147. There is only one relationship of interest in the OzCar scandal and that’s the relationship between Godwin and Mal. And good fortune that such a relationship was exposed over a non-event.

    One less Rat in the Ranks.

    Mobius Ecko, Please note I have it on good authority that a photo exists of Rudd and Grant locked in a handshake. How incriminating is that?

  148. N5 – LOL!

    I get the feeling you are feeling the same as me …

    ie … the horse is DEAD it won’t get up stop flogging it …!

    I had a senior manager try to “get” me many years ago – he was made to look a fool …

    … about a decade later (another company) I was called in as a consultant – he tried it on again (same issue?) luckily a n umber of managers around the boardroom table knew about the “attempt” and shot him down in flames – I’m a firm believer that “leopards cannot change their spots” …

    Turnbull was toasting on Monday – he’s just not quite browned off (enough people) yet – karma is good!

  149. Interesting how The Australian newspaper has come down on Turnbull like a ton of bricks..not their usual.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25688108-601,00.html

    “Now we find that he [Abetz..my insert] had met the very person concerned (Mr Grech) days before and that the whole thing is very likely to have been stage-managed.”

    The impression given at the hearing was that Mr Grech’s evidence was new and spontaneous.

  150. Yes TB, I like many others called it early. This is a giant ‘beat-up’ and the only good thing to come out of it is that the perpetrators are the ones who were beaten up.

    Imagine having politicians who don’t talk to people or provide proper assistance when requested.

    The irony in all this is that Grant got NOTHING. Not a brass razoo.

    Now if we want to talk about Mal and his ability to Branch stack via his payment for memberships for close and wealthy friends we just might have a story.

  151. N5, Branch stack? I thought only the ALP did that? 😆

  152. TB if you are interested in the real Mal, then read Guy Rundle’s very unkind anaylsis.

    http://larvatusprodeo.net/2009/06/23/malcolm-turnbull-is-the-coalitions-mark-latham/#more-8583

    Note the comment by Katz:

    “But picture the scene: The Liberal Party Caucus room, the hostility, the bitterness, the despair, the character assassination, the plotting, the backstairs deals.

    All of the above directed toward the political extinction of Malcolm Turnbull.

    Can a man with Malcolm’s huge but brittle ego endure all this for long?

    Malcolm’s imminent demise will be driven by Malcolm’s own demons.

  153. Nature 5,

    I got no further than comment one. I found myself in furious agreement with Liam, then left.

    /Not a Guy Rundle fan

  154. Tony, on June 25th, 2009 at 7:10 pm Said:

    Not a Guy Rundle fan

    I can understand that. LOL. But he can also be quite brilliant.

    As for ‘utegate’, there are some unintended consequences as Kohler points out:

    Yet this is a silly development. The only way ministers can understand what is happen in their area is to meet people and ask questions. Once lobbying goes back to putting cases before public servants then the minister becomes isolated from the decision-making process.

    Accordingly, I don’t think we are looking at a long-run change. But it will have an impact in the next few months. Public servants will be more powerful

    http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Utegates-lobbying-legacy-pd20090625-TBTDD?OpenDocument&src=kgb

    The whole thing is worth a read.

  155. Bloody hell, MPs lives are going to be a lot easier after this last week. If any of their constituents is game to ask their MP for assistance, the MP will probably too frightened to raise the matter with the appropriate minister in case the leader of the Opposition together with a flock of reporters springs out of the woodwork impugning their integrity!

  156. jane, on June 25th, 2009 at 9:09 pm Said:

    the MP will probably too frightened to raise the matter with the appropriate minister in case the leader of the Opposition together with a flock of reporters springs out of the woodwork impugning their integrity!

    Yes Jane, if an MP raises a ‘constituent’ issue there is a clear confict of interest. No question. MPs who are members of political parties (or even if they go to parties) have an obvious conflict of interest, particularly if they talk to Ministers and if they vote on party lines they ought to resign and make it retrospective to boot.

    Members who live within their electorates ought to be disqualified from voting on any issue that affects anyone in their electorate. Those members who arrive in Canberra by car, plane or train must be disqualified from dealing with Transport Legislation, while those who arrive by foot must never vote on … whatever

  157. N5, and there should be instant jail time for any MP who has the temerity to make contact be it verbal, eye contact or god forbid (crosses self although not a catholic) physical contact with a constituent!

    Any MP campaigning from the back of, say a mazda ute, will be impounded and any member of the public caught listening to said MP will subject to a large fine (might as well raise a bit of revenue while we wait).

    Armed police will patrol the streets, moving homeless current affairs anchors and reporters along and looming over all will be the sinister figure of Godwin Grech.

  158. Told you.

    Malcolm has too much past baggage both outside politics and within in to be pulling the type of stunt he did with UteGate, but worse, attempt to go on with it and bluster his way through (which is what he successfully did as a lawyer and in the business world). He should have just laid down, apologised and told his Party to drop the whole thing the very moment it was revealed the email was fake.

    The opposition had a plan to bring down the government minister by minister, now I won’t be surprised if the government goes after the opposition minister by minister.

    Time to cut loose all your Howard hangovers Coalition, every single one of them, and start recruiting a new generation but not from the ranks of the religious right like Alex Hawke.

  159. The buggers are just too haughty, lazy, on the nose, desperate and dismissive of the democratic process to reclaim government in the legitimate way. I see them as a danger to democracy, nothing less.

  160. Where is this so called democracy if the opposition is annihilated?

    This country will be poorer if the choice is either Labor or the Greens and one would be deluded to not believe that after two terms this government will start behaving like the last lot!

    I believe if the Nationals pulled out of the Coalition then the Liberals would go down the same path as the Democrats.

  161. There are great dangers in ‘crucifying’ Turnbull, easy at it will be, because politicians across the world are already on the nose. Witness what is happening in Britain where there have been a spate of resignations and disendorsements which leads inevitably to a significant loss of confidence in the political institutions.

    The loss of faith in democratic institutions is counterproductive because such institutions are the only avenues we, the masses, have for exerting power and influence. Sensible people should avoid shooting themselves in the foot.

    Take this Blog as an example with some commentators simple criticising everything while offering no solutions and at the same time failing to realise they can never be ‘winners’ and therefore can only be ‘losers’.

    Perhaps the best course of action for Rudd et al. is to back-off and try to improve the standing of politicians and political institutions which are still suffering attacks from Liberals and others who should know better.

  162. I believe if the Nationals pulled out of the Coalition then the Liberals would go down the same path as the Democrats.

    LOL. Andrew Bartlett would be speechless.

  163. Removed at Caneys request. joni

  164. MODERATORS

    Oh, for an edit button.

    Can you please remove my post of June 26th, 2009 at 9:09 am

    There are numerous errors in the wording and I’d like the post nuked please.

    Thanks.

  165. Mr Fielding could always join the Liberal Party, seems he would have a natural home there amongst the religious right, although I am generally against the religious zealots seeking to gain power, influence and policy over the public through domination and over representation in our political process.

  166. Anyone else having trouble submitting a comment?

    Sorry about the duplication – would the moderator be kind enough to fix it for me please?

  167. Anyone else having trouble submitting a comment?

    Yep. After hitting ‘submit’ the screen simply goes blank but the ‘post’ seems to work.

    No need for second efforts.

  168. Me too Kittylitter.

  169. The “Recent Comments” ticker on the top-left of the page has stopped too. WordPress under pressure presumably.

  170. Turnbull = Dead Man Walking

    http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25692185-662,00.html

  171. Turnbull = Dead Man Walking

    And the replacement is?

    Too much being made of an absolute non-event. The average punter is yawning and has worst opinions confirmed.

  172. Did you read the article, Nature?

  173. Where is this so called democracy if the opposition is annihilated?

    Actually, democracy will be fine – it’s the Two Party System that will suffer. A situation I have mixed feeling about…

    I’m not happy that the choices we have basically come down to Labor or Liberal, especially when it comes to the House of Representatives (Senate is fairing better, but not perfect). I would much rather the situation be like in various European countries where there simply isn’t the numbers to make a majority on their own and three or more parties form a coalition to make government. The Liberal/National Coalition is a bit of a joke compared to the governments I see formed in European states as the Nationals basically demand nothing from their Liberal counterparts.

    If this were to occur her in Australia, the Prime Minister & Cabinet would not be able to simply run rough-shod over objections based on party-line votes as they would need to keep various elements of their ruling body happy. Theoretically, this would mean that the constituents of the ruling body would be better represented.

    Sad thing is that it is not an implosion of both parties we see occurring, but just the Opposition. This would leave us with a “single party” able to get the numbers for government, with even less representation of constituents due to “party unity” & the leadership deciding on policy.

  174. Yes James, I read the article and any number like it from the MSM. This whole affair is a giant beat-up as is the payment of Rudd’s legal expenses and how such monies were raised.

  175. Wow, Tony Abbott really is delusional if he thinks hammering away at the same subject is going to change public sentiment. The longer they keep this in the headlines, the more Labor’s (stronger, more cutting) message of Turnbull relying on fake emails is going to be heard.

    The simplest message is what wins in the media cycle. Rudd simply needs to state that Turnbull tried to use false documents to impugn the government and get him to resign. Turnbull (& company) need to make the argument that Swan talking to a constituent, combined with emails faxed to his home (sent by Grech – purported author of fake email), combined with the fact he bought a car from Grant, and ignoring the outcome of these actions mean that Swan gave favours to mates. I know the easiest one to understand & have emphasised in a twenty second sound-bite…

  176. Interesting, Ben, that The Age have for 2 days been running with this deeper story about Rudd’s relationship with Grant. On the face of it, it looks pretty skinny, but they seem to be going with it. Perhaps the story’s not done just yet.

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/rudd-in-new-mates-lobbying-storm-20090626-cyfy.html

  177. The story is done, James, because the public has a short attention span. We’ve been saturated with this story over the past week and the public now are probably tuning out when snippets & innuendo such as your link are on show.

    If the Opposition hadn’t stuffed up with the fake email, this would have been a “new” story against Rudd, continuing on the narrative of having disgraced another member of the Labor government. However, having already given Rudd his counter-attack (and surrounded by stories the Liberal Party are pulling away from Turnbull) – this new information is just more background noise for most & lacks the “smoking gun” quality needed to turn this around for Turnbull.

    As I said, the public’s attention span is rather short and this story (while nice for those gunning for Rudd) is more noise. Nothing in it is incriminating enough to do more than possibly colour already established opinions. Not to mention it has to draw a pretty long bow in order to add more dirt to the story. It plays seven-degrees of separation to bring in a drug story…

  178. How funny.

    Tony Abbott reckons this has been a good week in politics for Malcolm Turnbull..!!

    What planet does this guy live on …??

  179. From where I sit I don’t think anyone in this mess had a good week!

  180. BS, scaper, I had a great week watching/listening to the Opposition squirming and making fools of themselves as the Liberal Party slowly imploded 😆

  181. How funny.

    Tony Abbott reckons this has been a good week in politics for Malcolm Turnbull..!!

    I know reb, it’s typical Liberal Party politics, John Howard used to do it all the time – take the criticism and spin it to become your own strength.

    I heard Abbott on ABC this am saying that recent events prove that Turnbull has the character to be a PM (because he withstood everything Rudd threw at him and refused to back down).

    Not sure how peddling in lies and the manufacturing of faked documents against your opponent is a character bonus though!

  182. TB, so I take it you feel more love for the Treasurer and the PM after the events this week???

  183. James, ask Tony Abbott if he has ever lied in public?

    Many people forget Tony Jones asking him if he had had a meeting with Pastor Pell a few years ago and denying it – bald faced, on National TV…

    The man is a twit with no concience and is the typical hypocrite, Catholic – (I know ’cause I have a very close relative who is just as avaricious and righteous as our Mr Mealy Mouth Abbot who will stop at nothing to get what they want) … these are the people who give the Church a bad name!

  184. Why me, TB? I’m not here defending Abbott nor anyone else. Just providing a voyeuristic running commentary sledging both sides.

  185. Bad habit of yours, scaper, me old mate, don’t put words into my mouth – I said I enjoyed watching the Opposition squirm – didn’t even mention Rudd or Swan …

    ++++++++++++++++++

    KL, and I thought the reasons given by Abbott (re Turncoats “abilities”) were very similar to the reasons that John Howard & The Private School Bullies were removed as prefects …

    …keep up the current shenanigins and they just might get expelled!

  186. A rabbit walks into a pub and says to the barman, “Can I have a pint of beer and a Ham and Cheese Toastie?” The barman is amazed but gives the rabbit a pint of beer and a ham and cheese toastie. The rabbit drinks the beer, eats the toastie and then leaves.

    The following night the rabbit returns and again asks for a Pint of Beer and a Ham and Cheese Toastie. The barman, now intrigued by the rabbit and the extra drinkers in the pub (because word gets round) gives the rabbit the pint and the toastie. The rabbit consumes them and leaves.

    The next night, the pub is packed, in walks the rabbit and says, “A pint of beer and a Ham and Cheese Toastie, please barman.” The crowd is hushed as the barman gives the rabbit his pint and toastie and then burst into applause as the rabbit wolfs them down.

    The next night there is standing room only in the pub, coaches have been laid on for the crowds of patrons attending, the barman is making more money in one week than he did all last year. In walks the rabbit and says, “A Pint of Beer and a Ham and Cheese Toastie, please barman,” smiling and accepting the tributes of the masses. The barman says, “I’m sorry rabbit, old mate, old mucker but we are right out of them Ham and Cheese Toasties.”

    The rabbit looks aghast, the crowd has quietened to almost a whisper, when the barman clears his throat nervously and says, “We do have a very nice Cheese and Onion Toastie.”
    The rabbit looks him in the eye and says, “Are you sure I will like it?”

    The masses bated breath is ear shatteringly silent. The barman, with a roguish smile says, “Do you think that I would let down one of my best friends, I know you’ll love it.”

    “Ok,” says the rabbit, “I’ll have a Pint of Beer and a Cheese and Onion Toastie.” The pub erupts with glee as the rabbit quaffs the beer and guzzles the toastie, he then waves to the crowd and leaves…

    … never to return.

    One year later in the now impoverished public house, the barman (who has only served 4 drinks tonight, 3 of which were his) calls time.

    When he is cleaning down the now empty bar, he sees a small white form, floating above the bar. The barman says, “Who are you?” to which he is answered, “I am the ghost of the rabbit that used to frequent your public house.”

    The barman says, “I remember you, you made me famous, you would come in every night and have a Pint of Beer and a Ham and Cheese Toastie, masses came to see you and this place was famous.”

    The rabbit says, “Yes, I know.”

    The barman said, “I remember, on your last night we didn’t have any Ham and Cheese Toasties, you had a Cheese and Onion one instead.”

    The rabbit said, “Yes, you promised me that I would love it.”

    The barman said, “You never came back. What happened?”

    “I DIED!” said the Rabbit.

    “NO!” said the barman, “What from.”

    After a short pause, the rabbit said…

    “Mixin’-me-toasties.”

  187. voyeuristic? both sides? GMAB! 😆

  188. I’d have to say that more good than bad for Rudd this week, but I wouldn’t call if a “good week” for him. On the other hand it has been a “bad week” for Turnbull, a very bad one.

  189. TB, my opinion was no one in this mess had a good week and you cut in and said bullshit!

    So obviously your opinion is that the PM and Treasurer did not have a bad week!

    I stand by my opinion regardless if you consider it as “BULLSHIT!”

  190. James – boom! boom! good ‘un and probably the right thread!

    I’ll have a Turnbull Toastie, thanks – toast with scrambled EGG all over it! He he!

    (Copyright – TB Queensland – 2009 !)

  191. Not biting, TB, too much work today as I head OS tomorrow. My posts on the subject speak for themselves. All I really said about Abbott some days ago now was that he is not a candidate for leadership.

  192. scaper, grrrrrr! 🙄

  193. I want to know more about the “fake” email. It seems that it has been deemed fake because contents of other emails sent by Charlton were cut and pasted into the email sent to Grech by someone yet officially identified.
    I would like to Charlton questioned regarding whether the cut and pasted contents are a true reproduction of comments he may have made in other emails or not, presumably to persons that included whoever composed the fake one.

  194. I wonder – how many questions has Hockey actually asked in QT on the economy since he became shadow treasurer?

  195. johnd

    It has been “proven fake”, not “deemed fake”

    …and as Adrian (Mobius Ecko) said yesterday, any semblance of any original email(s) has lost its context as soon as any c/p is attempted …

    … in summary – it IS a FAKE email … period!

  196. TB, so I take it you feel more love for the Treasurer and the PM after the events this week???

    Actually, at my work, a lot of staff were expressing disgust at the nasty attack on Rudd through ‘utegate’ and all of those who expressed an opinion, said “you know, I just like Kevvy Rudd.” Turnbull not mentioned at all, the next polls will be interesting.

    KL, and I thought the reasons given by Abbott (re Turncoats “abilities”) were very similar to the reasons that John Howard & The Private School Bullies were removed as prefects …

    yeah TB, I had in the back of my mind all along that the whole utegate thing was like something dreamed up in the dorm of a private school by the malevolent ‘young libs.’ Very immature and school boy prank like in nature. Do these pollies suffer from an ‘arrested development’ because they have not been exposed to enough variety in life and people?

  197. I wonder when the OA fracas will hit the papers?

  198. John Quiggin makes a good point that if the same standard as applied to this government by the opposition had been demanded of the previous government most of the Howard ministry would have stood down.

    scaper the next set of polling trends will see if you are right or not. There has been a slow (very slow) trend down for the government over the last six months or so. It will be interesting to see which way this trend now goes, for there is no way the government could ever have sustained the unrealistically high numbers they have been getting for such a sustained period.

  199. Adrian, Kittylitter, do you think that the reliance on documents that subsequently turn out to be forgeries is an error peculiar to Malcolm Turnbull?

  200. Adrian, Kittylitter, do you think that the reliance on documents that subsequently turn out to be forgeries is an error peculiar to Malcolm Turnbull.

    Not an error james, deliberate, and seemingly peculiar to the Liberal Party.

    Stop at nothing – Malcolm Turnbull’s fatal flaw?</a.

  201. Well, Kittylitter, you might wish to check out the ALP’s effort on the eve of the 1996 election.

  202. As I see it, the accusations against Swan are all related to the fake email. If Grech had not revieved the fake email would he have then:

    – sent the faxes/emails to Swan?
    – raised Grant at the meeting?
    – passed on the mobile number?

    That is why the email (IMHO) is central to all of this. If the email did not exist, would any of the other parts of the “misleading parliament” action still have occured? Because so far, the only evidence of Swan (or Rudd) raising Grant’s name all stem from the fake email.

  203. But I do note that Swan did call Grant directly.

  204. TB:

    KL, and I thought the reasons given by Abbott (re Turncoats “abilities”) were very similar to the reasons that John Howard & The Private School Bullies were removed as prefects …

    For months, Turnbull banged on about the deliberate demolition of the economy into perpetuity (“our children and our children’s children) as the only result of the Government’s stimulus packages (fear). Now the mother of all smear campaigns, the politics of personal destruction, to topple those in the two highest elected offices – that of PM and Treasurer. Even at a time when the economy is under intense threat, this is what is on offer from the opposition?

    Where are the intelligent and useful offerings that might attract the electorate to the alternative? We’ve had anything but – just mind-numbing theatrics based on mud-slinging, fear and smear.

    Such a joyous occasion it was in 07 that I thought would be the end of the politics of smear and fear has translated into the old guard, in their excitement to depose the PM and treasurer based on unsubstantiated “gotcha” evidence, ramping up the fear and smear intent on the personal and immediate destruction of their political opponents. Turnbull and Abetz went for the kill with Utegate but the ute has backfired all over them. Irrespective of the guilt or innocence of the Government on the issues raised, look at the oh so characteristic modus operandi of the Libs – its current intensity forcing the Government to fight fire with fire and so are the days of our lives. So, instead of less politics of smear, fear and utter nothingness for the electorate as a whole, as anticipated after the election, we the people have more of the same. Sickening!

    If all of this isn’t enough to shatter their credibility as an alternative government, there is not a shred of contrition or humility demonstrated by (I can’t see past my enormous ego) Bully Boy Malcolm which gives the whole saga an even more despicable tinge.

    Talk about perverting the course Australian democracy! There have been very few events in my life that have left me as angry and despondent as the current Liberal created mess. And I have never been privy to such arrogance as that demonstrated by MT. The Libs can never ever be trusted unless they dump that “born to rule” mentality they so blatantly demonstrate in their undertakings.

    Who is governing the country FGS?

  205. For months, Turnbull banged on about the deliberate demolition of the economy into perpetuity (“our children and our children’s children) as the only result of the Government’s stimulus packages (fear).

    Yes, it’s an interesting paradox. Unca Joe was banging on about $9000 per person in debt; but would spending $9000 now be worth it to ‘save’ the Australian economy considerably more than that in lost economic output, forestalled deflation, lost employment and wages, potential productivity and quality of life improvements through infrastructure development, etc? Joe makes it sound like a lot; but what was and is at risk? Perhaps, the Liberals (as presently constituted) just have issues with performing full risk assessments.

  206. johnd, on June 26th, 2009 at 11:25 am

    You have to be joking, johnd; you were just calling for a cessation of speculation. It’s a commonplace in the reporting that it’s been deemed ‘fake’ because there is no (record of any) such email having been sent by its attributed author, and that the ’email’ in question originated in Treasury and not the PMO or the PM&C, as also reported. Otherwise, it’s also in the reporting that Dr Charlton has been interviewed in relation to ongoing inquiries. And pay really close attention to Ken Henry’s statements about all being ‘revealed’ and all will become ‘clear’ in the fullness of time.

  207. James of North Melbourne, on June 26th, 2009 at 11:58 am

    No James, but Turnbull kept going on even after it had been revealed it was a forgery and in fact before it was officially announced as such, being told that in all likelihood it was a forgery.

    Turnbull was adamantly calling for the immediate resignation of a leader of a country in no uncertain terms, so it behove him to absolutely ensure that what he was making that demand on was watertight. Then to make matters worse he was demanding a standard that was not practiced by the government he was a part of nor practiced by himself.

  208. My you sound angry, RN!

    Reminds me of the good old days before the last election! 😉

  209. Bloody hell!

    I just remembered! I’ve spoken to Wayne Swan on a number of occasions over the last 20 odd years!

    Wait … is that a federal police car? Who’s that at the door …

    … no, no it wasn’t me … yes, I did think Haneef was innocent from the beginning, but, but , ………………………

  210. Legion:

    The email was real, not a fake but a forgery – their is a difference.

    From the AFP media release:

    Update regarding investigation

    Monday, 22 June 2009

    Having regard to the public interest in this matter, the AFP can confirm in relation to the investigation of matters referred to it by the Attorney-General’s Department on Saturday 20 June 2009, that a preliminary forensic investigation of computers located at a premises in Calwell and at the offices of the Department of Treasury has been undertaken.

    Preliminary results of those forensic examinations indicate that the e-mail referred to at the centre of this investigation has been created by a person or persons other than the purported author of the e-mail.

    A 42-year-old Calwell man has been interviewed by the AFP in relation to this matter and it will be alleged that the interview is consistent with preliminary forensic advice.

    As the investigation is continuing the AFP does not intend to make any further comment at this stage.

    Note the “has been created” meaning the email is real.

  211. RN, on June 26th, 2009 at 1:50 pm Said:

    The fact that you cut and pasted parts of the AFP media release in your post now casts doubts on it’s authenticity. 😉

  212. johnd, on June 26th, 2009 at 2:02 pm

    You don’t find Malcolm’s use of the word ‘composition‘ on Saturday curious? 😉

  213. My you sound angry, RN!

    Reminds me of the good old days before the last election!

    .

    Yes TB – Just post election 07 the smear and fear politics of the Libs under Howard was seemingly over, converted to a more pleasant political style that was the ALP under Rudd. Enter Bully Boy Turnbull as leader and a swift return to the old style ensued.

    What is most frustrating about all of this is that their isn’t a damned thing we can do about it because they are the opposition and MT and his “cronies”, to quote that useless Hockey in reference to Rudd and Swan, will stop at nothing including deceit and trickery to gain the upper hand. For as long as the Libs are the Opposition, we will endure. Is this democracy? While the Libs create such disturbance in forcing the Government to defend itself, nothing much else is being achieved. They are obstructionists for the sake of anything to discredit those elected to do the “ruling” at the moment. They have nothing else. Again – just pathetic!

    The only good thing to come of this is that the Libs are doing more political damage to themselves, give them enough rope and so on, but it could take considerable time for them to meet their demise and a viable opposition to emerge from the settling dust.

    In the meantime, how much in political and financial cost is lost? Not to mention that we the people are forced to tolerate the nonsense coughed up by the Libs.

  214. I saw mentioned this morning (can’t recall which newspaper) that it was lucky for T*bull that Gillard was absent in Israel. However, I am sure that all the journos will be lining up to get her opinion. Am looking forward to that one.

  215. This may interest you, johnd: Cut-up technique. Works for time-slices and event(s) accounts, too. 😉 Otherwise, what you appear to be asking for is a back-construction of the process of cut-up and (re-)compilation, if any, by parsing the cut-up work and checking for concordances with original texts.

  216. Boy, I wish this scandal that I’ve mentioned in the past would break because I just got an update and I’m bursting to tell you guys.

  217. Just think scaper, after the story breaks there won’t be any point in the telling.

  218. Labor or Lib scaper?

  219. It is more to do with a process initiated by the last government and knowingly inherited by this government.

    I will submit a thread on Sunday night and reveal all I know.

  220. That doesn’t surprise me scaper. There are several things this government has continued I thought they would quash or change I’m not very happy with.

  221. it could take considerable time for them to meet their demise

    I’ve got a feeling they might be “demising” as we speak …

  222. a process initiated by the last government and knowingly inherited by this government.

    Well that applies to all the work done on the ETS by Howard ey al..

  223. TB Queensland, on June 26th, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Ah ha, TB! My sinister plan has worked. Malvolio has been informed of your preferential treatment by Swan and he and Eric Abetz are even now speaking to a shadowy figure in Rock Pool car park and pieces of paper, which will later be sent via fax to Wayne Swan’s home fax, are changing hands.

    The Feds are creating an M file and Mulder and Scully are on their way to head up the investigation.

  224. jane, on June 26th, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    Bugger! I hope you didn’t tell them that I post (and extremely occasionally, author, not even sure I still can?) on – dada – Blogocrats!

    Who’s that shadowy figure in the corner of the “office” (we still cal it the office – bin retired for nearly five years!) – its not? yes it is – Michael and Elvis – they have some suggestions/ideas … yes, yes, mmm, yes …

  225. James of North Melbourne, on June 26th, 2009 at 12:24 pm Said:

    Well, Kittylitter, you might wish to check out the ALP’s effort on the eve of the 1996 election.

    James, don’t be vague, just tell me what you’re on about, otherwise get back to me when youhave checked out some info.

  226. Jeez. I thought everyone else here must have known what he was talking about. Sorry James, I’ve got no idea either.

  227. OMG Abbott’s been let off the leash and the muzzle. Now Rudd has been lobbying for white goods and he is apparently not a member of the 51 Club but others are, AND they often meet at a gentleman’s club dining room!

    Rudd in new mates lobbying storm

  228. Gentlemen’s club? That’s gotta be code. 😉

  229. I will have a go at what James maybe hinting at but i could be wrong

    http://www.treasurer.gov.au/DisplayDocs.aspx?doc=speeches/2006/005.htm&pageID=05&min=phc&Year=2006&DocType=1

    Peter Costello says “As we know, the March 1996 election was fought on the basis that the Commonwealth Budget was in surplus. The December 1995 Mid-Year Review forecast a surplus of $115 million. Kim Beazley, then Finance Minister, repeatedly affirmed in the campaign that the Budget was in surplus, for example, saying on 1 February 1996:- “…we’re operating in surplus, and our projections are for surpluses in the future.”

    However

    “On the day after the election on 2 March 1996 the Treasury estimated the deficit at $9.0 billion (1.9 per cent of GDP). The outcome was in fact a deficit of $10.1 billion (2.1 per cent of GDP).”

    and

    “Immediately after the election the Coalition Government announced that it would legislate to prevent such deception ever occurring again. The Charter of Budget Honesty Act 1998 provides mandatory reporting standards and the preparation of a pre-election statement by the Secretaries of Treasury and Finance. Now the public is told the actual state of the Budget before the election campaign and is able to assess policy against agreed facts before they vote.”

  230. I think you could be right, Neil.

  231. That’d be a first Tony 😛

  232. bacchus, on June 26th, 2009 at 10:29 pm Said:

    Ah yes, a member of my leftoid fan club makes a comment.

    By the way has anything interesting been happening in the last couple of days. i have not been around so it is possible I have missed some action.

  233. Ralph Willis released some forged letters indicating that the Coalition were intending to cut state grants by 15% to fund election promises, the week of the election.

  234. The letter was a forgery by the Young Liberals.

  235. I’m not certain that it was ever established who it was but the “young liberal” that was initially accused was cleared by the AFP.

  236. Kittyliiter- I did a quick google search. In wikipedia it was alleged that the forged letters was due to the Young liberals.

    Do you have any evidence for this or is it just an unfounded allegation??

    How about my link where it showed that Kim Beasley lied liked crazy about the state of the budget before the election in 1996.

    What a slimeball.

  237. To be fair, Neil, I don’t think Beazley lied as much as he didn’t know. He shouldn’t have had that portfolio and is one of Parliament’s good guys. Would have been a good leader, but no idea about finance.

  238. Aha..the plot thickens. 1996 is the same year as the rusty ute!

  239. Neil of Sydney, on June 27th, 2009 at 12:54 am Said:

    How about my link where it showed that Kim Beasley lied liked crazy about the state of the budget before the election in 1996.

    How about Howard then, and his debt truck that was estimated as a considerable influence on voters.

    The moment he got into power after saying during the election he would bring down the foreign account as a high priority he began racking up record current account deficits, and that continued until the day he was kicked out.

    Howard lied like crazy, what a slimeball, the greatest slimeball this country has ever had as leader.

  240. Kim Beazley was one of the best Defence Ministers we have had, and that was during a time Labor had severely slashed Defence and all but rendered it impotent.

    I was in the middle of Navy career and met Kim (in meet and greets and mess functions) a few times. He was impressive and genuinely well liked by Defence personnel. By the way I’ve also met Howard, when he was Treasurer and again on the bridge wing of HMAS Sydney when he was opposition leader.

    I think as leader Beazley was out of his depth. He was too much of a thinker and strategic planner and failed in the micro management and tactical planning.

  241. For scaper.

    The first poll. A face-to-face taken at the height of UteGate before the thing backfired on the opposition.

    A considerable drop for the government then, so it’s going to be very interesting to see what polls taken after the backfire show.

    Morgan: 55-45

    I notice the opposition are still attempting to smear and fling mud. As I have stated they want to be absolutely sure of their facts and if they keep it up then I have no sympathy if the government starts raising some of their past.

    In these things neither side are ever squeaky clean and both have plenty of dirty laundry, and I think lots of dirty laundry festering on the Coalition side from their time in government.

    The probable reason the opposition are continuing these lines of smear attacks is because more good news on the economy came out this week seemingly vindicating the government’s economic management. In other words we have an opposition completely bereft of ideas.

  242. According to Jack the Insider there is chatter that Turnbull was set up by one of his own!

    It makes sense!

  243. I expected both parties to take a hit on primaries and the Greens and other to pick up the lost support.

    Newspoll will be interesting.

  244. Yes scaper, Newspoll skews towards the conservatives, if they go down in that poll they are in shit.

    As I said on the Fielding Wong thread, Fielding has taken a big hit so that is one “other” that won’t do well out of this.

  245. “Newspoll skews towards the conservatives”

    I’m not sure what you base that claim on.

    Exit polls give us the best indication about polling accuracy as they occur only a day or two before the actual election. If we look at the last two elections and the exit polls from Newspoll we observe the following results:

    2007:

    Newspoll exit poll (November 20-22 ,2007): Labor 44%, Coalition 43%, Greens 7%; 2PP Labor 52%-48%

    Election Result (November 24, 2007): Labor 43.38%, Coalition 41.77%, Greens 7.79%; 2PP Labor 52.7%- 47.3%

    2004:

    Newspoll exit poll (October 6-7, 2004): Coalition 45%, Labor 39%, Greens 7%; 2PP 50%-50%

    2004 Election Result (October 9, 2004): Coalition 46.36%, Labor 37.64%, Greens 7.19%; 2PP Coalition 52.74 – 47.26%

    Source of newspolls: http://www.newspoll.com.au
    Source of election results: http://www.aec.gov.au

  246. It seems that leadership speculation has now turned to Hockey..

    http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25697832-952,00.html

    SENIOR Liberals have accused Treasury spokesman Joe Hockey of using the fake email affair that burnt Malcolm Turnbull to position himself for the leadership.

  247. AI

    Pollytics I think did an article on polls in Australia and found historically polls skew slightly one way or the other with Newspoll skewing towards the conservatives. And that is all polls not just the election of exit polls for two select periods.

    Pollytics takes this into account and has produced the Pollytrend , which factors in all the polls and their running trend. Picking individual polls is as meaningless as picking individual weather events to disprove climate change. What needs to be observed is the trend, which is why it was stupid for many Howard supporters and right wing media to state Howard would still win in a comeback when there was an up blip in the polls. The trend had been going all one way for a considerable period, and it was the trend that was important. The trend has been going against the government for some time now, which is to be expected and realistic. Their abnormally high figures over such a long period was unsustainable no matter how bad the opposition.

    This article shows how a pollster can be out of lockstep with a trend, in this case Newspoll a few weeks ago.

    Sorry I can’t find the original polls bias article AI. I’ll go through the archives and see if I can spot it there.

  248. I found this link on Piers Ackermans blog. Some food for thought.

    http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=9094

  249. Piers Ackerman, you have to be joking, you read Piers’s blog?

    And that article was written by David Flint.

    Funny one Neil, for a second I thought you were serious.

  250. When you see the words “Piers Akerman” simply substitute:”far right-wing Liberal Party Talking Points“.

  251. Funny one Neil, for a second I thought you were serious.

    Actually i was serious. I was actually hoping for an intelligent comment. Do you have anything worth contributing???

  252. I thought Stone made some valid points in the Milne article.

  253. So did I. Thanks for the link, Neil.

  254. Caney, but even right wingers, and some hard right wingers, don’t take Piers seriously. Just look at Insiders whenever he is on and see the amount of eye rolling heavenwards as he speaks.

    But that article was not Piers’s, he only linked it. It was written by Flint, the staunchest monarchist in this country, and that is the vein in which the article was couched.

    Flint makes some valid points about the politicisation of the public service (where was his criticism during the Howard years?), but the end game is to find favour with Australian remaining a monarchy.

    That’s another point I would like to raise.

    How come all this stuff is coming out from the right now? Where was it all during a whole 11½ years of the Howard government where the politicisation of the public service was blatant and taken to the extremes? Where was all the criticism of government malfeasance and undermining during that long period. Now now two years into a new government and al these things are being demanded and raised constantly.

    I would like to believe that if a conservative government got back into power this demand for openness and honesty from government by the right wing media and commentators would continue, but I very much doubt it.

  255. Adrian Mobius ‘All-right-wingers-are-pricks’ Ecko,

    Why don’t you go and spew your anti-conservative bile over at Pure-Poison where they’ll lap it up? You’re bringing down the generally reasonable tone of this place, in my opinion.

  256. The article was OK if you ignored what its ulterior aim was, but as I said Piers?

    And Neil you should be the last one asking if someone has anything worth while to contribute if that is the case.

    We all contribute at different levels at different times. Boring place otherwise.

  257. Oh c’mon off your faux outrage Tony.

    Neil is allowed to go on about Leftoids and how bad they are, not a peep from you. You have no hesitation in putting down the left and excusing the right so I guess Piers’s blog is perfect for you.

  258. Not outrage, Adrian; I’m just sick of reading your totally-biased fact-free crap.

  259. And Neil you should be the last one asking if someone has anything worth while to contribute if that is the case.”

    Why do you say that Adrian??? I have my own leftoid fan club on this site. They all hold me in high regard. I would be VERY surprised if people did not hold my opinions in the highest regard.

    Also on this topic I did not like it that the PM of Australia took a photograph of Charlton/Turnbull and then published it in the newspapers. it is an invasion of privacy

  260. Oh back to the liar bit are we now Tony? Why does that not surprise me?

    And do you not think I’m just as sick of reading your biased crap, but it seems from your high horse that bias is OK.

    And what about Neil’s fact free bias, not a single complaint from you ever, yet as soon as the bias swings left you are sick of it.

    And since when did you become the arbiter of what bias is OK and what is not?

  261. Yes Neil it was an invasion of privacy as permission from Turnbull and Charlton was apparently not sought.

    It’s something the media and just about everyone with a mobile phone does all the time.

  262. >blockquote>Oh back to the liar bit are we now Tony?

    I didn’t say that Adrian, but if the cap fits. And I’m not claiming to be the arbiter of anything; just giving my critique of your ‘work’.

  263. Neil of Sydney, on June 27th, 2009 at 1:37 pm Said:

    I have my own leftoid fan club on this site. They all hold me in high regard. I would be VERY surprised if people did not hold my opinions in the highest regard.

    Then be very surprised! Every village has one They get to represent in the gurning competitions.

    As for David Flint and the need to act ‘proper’. LOL. It was Flint who had a starring role in the Cash for Comment scandal and became an absolute joke when he ‘forgot’ that he had written a highly compromising letter to Jones. When it comes to correct behaviour, Flint has some distance to recover.

    It was Jones of course who had a hand at least in the reappointment of Flint.

    The well-known broadcaster John Laws, also involved in the inquiry, stated he had heard Jones say that he had “instructed” the Prime Minister to reappoint Flint in 2001.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Flint

  264. Hey Pervert 5

    Do you have any comments about what Flint said in the link i gave???

  265. I’m not certain that it was ever established who it was but the “young liberal” that was initially accused was cleared by the AFP.

    The letter suggested John Howard would cut grants to the states if he won Government. Quite explosive, but a forgery by Young Liberals. It blew up in Willis’ face and is blamed by some for the scale of the loss Labor suffered.

    How about my link where it showed that Kim Beasley lied liked crazy about the state of the budget before the election in 1996.

    I think that they all lie about budgets neil.

  266. The valid points that Stone makes appear to have blown up in Malcolm’s face, again, though; sometime around Monday morning. Hard to tell if Milne should be dabbling in politics journalism, even as he skips back 25 years to draw a hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation since proved speculated otherwise.

  267. George Megalogenis is doing a story on Grech…it will be enlightening.

  268. Why don’t you go and spew your anti-conservative bile over at Pure-Poison where they’ll lap it up? You’re bringing down the generally reasonable tone of this place, in my opinion.

    Not outrage, Adrian; I’m just sick of reading your totally-biased fact-free crap.

    And since when did you become the arbiter of what bias is OK and what is not?

    Yes, it’s not for any of us to decide what someone else can and cannot post and how they go about it. We can comment (hopefully keeping it civil) and challenge, or simply ignore rather than stalking someone else’s posts just because you don’t like how they comment.

  269. Tony where’s your outrage at Neil, “Pervert 5”.

    Of course your outrage is very selective and biased. It is only for you to get upset and call people liars on one side whilst the other can lie and abuse all they want.

    So you critique posts now? Was master blog critic bestowed upon you or did you just take it upon yourself to be an Ackerman protégé?

  270. It is only for you to get upset and call people liars on one side whilst the other can lie and abuse all they want.

    Perhaps you’d like to point out where I’ve called anyone, on any of your perceived ‘sides’, a liar?

  271. Mobius Ecko, on June 27th, 2009 at 7:55 pm Said:

    Tony where’s your outrage at Neil, “Pervert 5″.

    Mobius, let it rest. LOL. Neil is clearly … Well I suspect my vocabulary of pejorative terms goes way and beyond Neil’s. I take it you have TRIED to follow his posts.

    As for Tony and his selective outrage:

    Perhaps you’d like to point out where I’ve called anyone, on any of your perceived ’sides’, a liar

    Can’t do that. But on two occasions Tony you called me a ‘troll’. LOL.

    Tony if you takes the gloves off then ‘games on’. Tis only fair.

  272. Tony if you takes the gloves off then ‘games on’. Tis only fair.

    I’ve got no problem with that at all, Nature5, and you and Adrian – and anybody else who feels the need – can go for your lives. But do me a favour: use my own words against me, not some dreamed-up version of them like Adrian has just done.

  273. What Tony? No ‘troll’ descriptor at this point? No condemnation of Neil? Not that I give a rat’s, but tis interesting re your concept of ‘sides’.

    I’d like to hear more. LOL.

  274. but tis interesting re your concept of ’sides’.

    ‘Side(s)’ is a term and a concept favoured by Adrian (I was quoting him), like his constant reference to, and apparent obsession with, “the right”, “right-wingers”, conservatives, Andrew Bolt, Piers Ackerman, and so on ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

    And yes, I did call you a troll in one (or two, according to you) of my “gloves-off” moments. And, in case you’re wondering, I’m not apologising for it.

  275. Tony, on June 27th, 2009 at 9:30 pm Said:

    And yes, I did call you a troll in one (or two, according to you) of my “gloves-off” moments. And, in case you’re wondering, I’m not apologising for it.

    wondering? Please Tony, you really have an over-inflated opinion of thy self.

    Tony your ‘views’ are about as relevant to the current context as Julian Simon’s and his now laughable assertions that all problems can be solved through ‘market forces’.

    Tony – try to keep up.

  276. Please Tony, you really have an over-inflated opinion of thy self.

    Showing exquisite timing, you provide a perfect demonstration of the kind of comment that earns you the label “troll”.

  277. Tony, on June 27th, 2009 at 10:00 pm Said

    you provide a perfect demonstration of the kind of comment that earns you the label “troll”.

    Oh dear Tony, you really are limited when it comes to responses when under pressure.

    Does that ‘troll’ reference make it three? Talk about an ‘individual’ construction of reality? But I assume it’s comforting? At least I hope so. LOL.

    Now what about Simon and his theory of how unlimted population growth will ensure earth’s furure. China is interested.

    And by the way ME’s comments are not ‘ad infinitum’. Always to early to make that judgement. LOL.

  278. ‘too early’.

  279. TB Queensland, on June 26th, 2009 at 7:23 pm TB, like Honest Mal, never reveal my sources. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

    Mobius Ecko, just buy Neil some shares in Gillette or Wilkinson Sword and don’t let Tony bait you.

    scaper…, on June 27th, 2009 at 7:25 am Said:

    “According to Jack the Insider there is chatter that Turnbull was set up by one of his own!”

    scaper, they didn’t need to do anything. Trunchbull managed to set himself up single-handedly. God knows how he ever managed to win a case as a barrister; obviously making sure nothing can blow up in your face is a concept so foreign to him that it might as well have been forged in another universe.

    The man has no common sense or political acumen, just a colossal ego and an aversion to checking provenance. Which makes him easy prey for Kevin Rudd, the obsessive i dotting, t crossing nerd, who has surprised everyone with his incisive demolition of Trunchbull.

    Much as I despise Howard and everything he stood for, he would never have been stupid enough to have been caught with his pants down like Trunchbull. He always had the wit to know that if something looks too good to be true, it is too good to be true.

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