Come back Peter, all is forgiven…

Another thread on Utegate that has gone too long for the mobile users, so let’s bring today’s discussion into this thread.

Last nights thread finished off with some observations from myself and Tony on Hockey’s Lateline interview and this morning with some thoughts on Grech’s possible motivations.

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327 Responses

  1. For anyone (like me) who missed said interview – it is available on the Lateline website. Watching now… and the first five minutes show why I like the ABC

    Tony to Hockey: Can we please start the interview by answering the question?

  2. Come back Peter, all is forgiven…

    Heh. I’ll bet Peter can’t wipe the smirk smile off his face.

  3. Only way we might see Peter back is as Council for the Defence . . . .assuming he can still practice.

  4. Tony to Hockey: Can we please start the interview by answering the question?

    Yes. It would be nice if Tony enforced that as a rule, and not just when he feels like it.

  5. Grech’s house in Canberra has been egged. Duck eggs?

  6. Yes. It would be nice if Tony enforced that as a rule, and not just when he feels like it.

    Sure would, but as you can see, it was completely ineffective. Several times Tony had to repeat the question(more than thrice) and Joe Hockey still refused to answer.

    I must say, that was the worst interview I’ve seen on this issue since Grech’s senate hearing. And at least Grech answered the questions!

  7. Hockey seemed very upset last night that Jones would dare to ask for sources from the Liberals. But then, Mr Hockey, you have to understand that the mole in question:

    – was possibly the mole that Turnbull relied on for his demands for Rudd to resign
    – made accusations in senate questions that raised questions about the treatment given to Grant
    – had a fake email in his possession
    – is the possible creator of the email

    and so, finding out what connection and what contact the Liberals had with Grech is pretty central to all of this, and so is something that the public should be told.

  8. . . . .On Monday, the AFP raided Mr Grech’s home, analysing his computer and interviewing the public servant. Barely three hours later, the AFP issued a statement declaring the email a fake. . . .”The AFP has often been prepared to make comments about an ongoing investigation at an early stage when it may well be much more prudent and appropriate to delay comment until the investigation is complete.”. . . .”The more gloss, the more spin you put on the story, the more you can affect the outcome of a trial.”. . . .

  9. Isn’t it telling Tony that The Australian had no problems about the AFP being prepared to make early comments about Haneef, in fact demanded it.

    Different government and now its a bad practice, which by the way I believe it is but it still doesn’t take away from the sheer hypocrisy of The Australian.

  10. Hockey didn’t want to talk about anything Jones asked about. He wanted a pulpit to talk about Swan’s misleading of parliament.

    The Liberals have this strange notion that if they simply ignore what the media are talking about and what the public are interested in; they’ll be able to drown out the Turnbull/Grech issue and still have a good end to the story. They seem to forget (or deliberately ignore) the fact that this has become the political equivalent of a fatal car crash and everyone is rubbernecking hoping to see the severed head.

    The delusion was no better shown then when Hockey claimed that at the end of it all, people will only remember the fact Swan mislead parliament… And he said it with a straight face! No wonder he was the salesman for WorkChoices!

  11. Joni,

    There are countless cases where moles or whistleblowers have supplied information that has led to illegal or improper behaviour being exposed. Nothing should be done to discourage such behaviour. Thyat’s why police don’t reveal the identity of their informers, and the reason journalists have actually gone to jail rather than reveal their sources. The Liberals should do their utmost to protect their own sources.

  12. Given that the issue was being debated in Parliament, it is doubtful that anyone would have been happy..especially Turnbull and Hockey who would have looked even more like gooses (geese?) if the information hadn’t been released asap.

  13. But has the mole in those cases been the one who was responsible for the illegality?

    Oh – and I do agree that whistleblowers should be protected. But in this case is Grech a whistleblower?

  14. Isn’t it telling Tony that The Australian had no problems about the AFP being prepared to make early comments about Haneef, in fact demanded it.

    I don’t recall that Adrian. Do you have a link? (And I’m not saying you’re wrong; it’s just just without supporting evidence it could be construed that you’re trying to support your anti-government media-conspiracy theory.)

  15. This is what I don’t understand. The leaking of privileged information is subject to an investigation by the AFP, but the receiving of this isn’t illegal?

  16. Joni,

    Even though, in this case, Grech’s information appears to have been incorrect, he was engaged in whistleblower type behaviour.

  17. Here’s a thought/scenario…

    Someone (not necessarily in the Government) found out that Grech was feeding Treasury info to the Opposition but couldn’t prove it…

    …one way to flush Grech out would be to “plant” a false email in the expectation that it would be transferred to Malcolm Turnbull …

    …the “false email” was then “elevated” by Mal Turcoat et al and the whole situation has run out of control …

  18. I think that’s the problem, joni. Grech has been the Liberal’s whistleblower on other issues, leaking information to them whenever he found something useful. Unfortunately, he gave the Libs a fake email this time which (intentionally or not) is bringing down the current Lib leader.

    The difference is that, unlike whistleblowers protected by law, Grech was leaking information that was not on illegal activities. He was leaking material that was useful politically, sure, but that is not what the term “whistleblower” generally means.

    Hockey (and I assume others in the Lib camp) are trying to muddle that definition in order to keep their public servant leaks happy. How Grech is treated will have an effect on how their other moles act in the future. Can you imagine how bad this could turn out if say just half their other moles were to stop giving them information?

  19. Very interesting and quite possible scenario there TB. It does sound like a strategy that the AFP would employ to expose a “plant” as part of their investigation.

    It all gets curiouser and curiouser…

  20. Sorry Tony I’m not going back through tons of The Australian archives, much of which is behind registration/pay walls. There was criticism against the AFP on its timings and revelations at the time of the Haneef affair but from memory The Australian nor any other media published an article like that of Maley’s. As I said, different government.

    Min depends on the information. If it was classified then the receiver if they don’t immediately declare it is in just as much shit, which is why it irks me so much that Bolt got away with publishing secret information leaked to him by Downer’s office. As I said the Liberals have a history of this type of clandestine stuff and usurping processes for political gain.

    As to the leaker, and N5 will confirm this, Public Servants are under strict rules of no unauthorised revelations of their work and face harsh disciplinary actions for doing so. Howard even threatened to invoke anti-terrorist legislation against those revealing and receiving information he didn’t want known public.

  21. Ben, also the fact now revealed that there have been ongoing federal police investigations (obviously unknown to Grech) should have a substantial impact on other leakers. I should imagine that all flow of information for some time will be about as dry as the Murray.

  22. Gordon Grech – A Whistleblower? GMAB. Or perhaps he hasn’t read this.

    http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/EB-e/prb0127-e.pdf

  23. Yes, I think that the situation is worse for the Liberals than is being demonstrated in the media. We all know Turnbull is toast. Even if he hangs on to leadership (no viable alternatives?) – his credibility is shot to hell and there is no way he’ll be able to claim victory next elections (unless Labor really f#cks up).

    The worse situation which is only now coming to light, yet not being focused on, is that the sources of information the Liberals have been relying on (illegally or not) will clam up tighter than a snare drum. In other words, the Liberals will be hindered incredibly in their strategy of taking down the government minister by minister (as has been their strategy to date); and will need to focus on policy.

  24. Tellingly Sky News is now reporting “..as Malcolm Turnbull tries to hang onto the Liberal leadership”.

    Who is trying to wrassle it from his grasp? Not Costello apparently who from Israel has stated an emphatic Nooo (as in wouldn’t touch it with a ten foot pole).

  25. TB Queensland, on June 24th, 2009 at 8:48 am

    For it to be declared a fake so quickly indicates someone had prior knowledge of it. Otherwise it would have to be determined whether or not it had been written by the supposed author or not, and I imagine that would take some intense questioning to prove if it was not the case.

  26. You know that you’re dead meat when Sky News run a poll about one’s leadership being terminal 🙂

  27. reb, on June 24th, 2009 at 8:51 am

    Thanks, sreb, I’m just trying to think outside of the square (read right wing paranoi) and fill in the gap left by ToM 😆

    Still at this stage anything is possible …

    One thing we do know is that “one email” – and the way its been unprofessionaly dealt with, is sounding the death knell of Mal Turncoat’s political aspirations …

    … who would ever trust his decision making/leadership “skills” now?

  28. Not necessarily johnd. An email purporting to be from Andrew Charlton in PMO but originating in Treasury could very quickly be proved fake without questioning anyone. There’s an awful lot of information in email headers…

  29. The veracity of Mr Grech’s testimony to the Senate is also in doubt now as well. Was his behaviour in this matter designed to attempt to make it look like Wayne Swan was asking for more than he actually was for one particular car dealer. The case against Mr Swan is pretty well entirely based on email trails and evidence to the Senate from Mr Grech – it’s all looking more & more sus…

  30. TB Queensland, on June 24th, 2009 at 9:05 am Said:
    “… who would ever trust his decision making/leadership “skills” now?”

    He might be able to turn it to his advantage.
    I for one don’t really care if a politician stuffs up. What matters is his ability to brush off any setbacks, or knock downs, get up and have another go. That’s the nature of the game, and it ensures that wimps like Costello don’t rise to the top.

  31. There’s an awful lot of information in email headers…

    Yup, and we also have the governments “enhanced” mailservers as well. Any extra details they keep would make it even easier to pinpoint where the email came from (perhaps down to the exact workstation). It all depends on just how much is kept in the computer logs and I get the impression from other more knowledgeable than myself in government policy that there is alot of extra details kept.

  32. bacchus, on June 24th, 2009 at 9:12 am Said:

    It’s one thing to determine which computer, (or perhaps phone) it may have originated from, another thing entirely to determine who the actual author is.

  33. He might be able to turn it to his advantage.
    I for one don’t really care if a politician stuffs up. What matters is his ability to brush off any setbacks, or knock downs, get up and have another go. That’s the nature of the game, and it ensures that wimps like Costello don’t rise to the top.

    Sure, if he apologises for the stuff-up, he might have garnered some respect &/or sympathy. Thing is, he is refusing to apologise without an apology from Rudd. This arrogance along with the incompetence shown is not going to reflect well in the general voter.

    I personally think he could have worn this with an apology and gone on to attack Swan. Having publicly eaten humble pie and apologised profusely based on the evidence – Rudd’s calls for his resignation would come across very petty. Combine the arrogance & incompetence though and Rudd’s calls pretty much reflect that of the public.

  34. ? Didn’t another saviour rise from the dead (in the area that is now Israel) to save mankind ?

    (sorry – just being a bit cheeky this morning – heading to the SOO game tonight – woohoo)

    BTW – fixed the double post ben.

  35. GO MAROONS! BLUES!

    joni: I think TB mistyped his comment so I have corrected it 😉

  36. ? Didn’t another saviour rise from the dead (in the area that is now Israel) to save mankind ?

    😀 I laughed out loud on that one! Good call, joni.

  37. Sorry TB – could not resist…. hehe

  38. johnd, on June 24th, 2009 at 9:17 am

    Most voters aren’t as cynical as you john, most still “expect” thier representatives to at least make an effort to be honest …. 😉

    Apart from that, those of us who “watch” politics are not impressed with poor judgement calls – as this fiasco has been …

    … Hockey’s performance last night only served to entrench poor assessment and investigation skills on the part of the Opposition in general and a childish – I’m a team member approach – doesn’t wash with more informed and technically “in touch” voters (and younger these days) …

    … and we all know that the Libs operate more like a dictatorship than a consensus group!

  39. johnd, on June 24th, 2009 at 9:22 am Said:

    true johnd, but it’s probably not difficult to determine that it couldn’t have been Andrew Charlton There’s also the matter of the email account from which it was created, and which user was authenticated into the government systems – this is much more telling than which individual computer it came from…

  40. TB@8:48

    “The Sting”

    Doesn’t track. Too complex for one. Out of a spy novel for a second. Look at the Fitzgibbon mess. In the present fracas you’re implying a degree of professionalism and sheer Machiavellian behaviour that was absent in the latter. ie the simpler explanations are better.

    Golly I was listening to an Abbott interview where the implication to him was that the Libs had made it all up. Planted the e-mal themselves.

    Getting sillier and sillier.

  41. TB @ 8.48am..this is not an entirely unreasonable scenario given how quickly Rudd called in the Feds and said it with a smile on his face. But wait a minute, the Feds were already there due to an ongoing investigation…

  42. joni! That’s really p!$$ed me off – just taking advantage as the “owner” – I’m off @r$s#0le – no wonder no-one will play with you here! I’m off! See ya!

  43. B.Tolputt, on June 24th, 2009 at 9:25 am Said:
    “This arrogance along with the incompetence shown is not going to reflect well in the general voter.”

    It might not sit well with those who worship policital correctness, but I think a lot of people wish for leaders with the determination, and thick hides, of some of our earlier much admired leaders.

  44. And even Shannnannnan is all doom and gloom:

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25682014-7583,00.html

    LIBERAL MPs no longer just look like they are thinking of defeat at the next election, they are beginning to talk about it…..Talking about defeat is only one step away from accepting it, and accepting defeat only guarantees the Coalition will not win.

    And so there we have it, the Libs are going to lose the next election and from none other than Shanahan.

  45. Lets have a look at Grech.

    He lives alone

    He works late into the night

    He gardens at night (according to his neighbours)

    Nah…………….nothing weird about any of that is there ?

    Grech is no whistleblower. All he is is a an absolute low life who likes to curry favour with his perceived mates in the LNP. Just like a dog who will dance on its hind legs for a titbit, Grech “danced” when he was being thanked and patted on the back by the likes of Turnbull and Hockey.

    After getting so much good quality intel from Grech in the past as soon as Turnbull had his chance to question Grech regarding the concocted email he let his dogs loose on Grech at the Senate Estimates hearing.

    Grech had probably not been forthcoming enough as he knew that the “email” was just created to demonstrate to Turnbull how “important” he was. Grech had regrets about it by then and knew the thing had gotten out of hand.

    That’s why Grech was bumbling with his answer as he knew then and there that his latest grab at attention, like all nice dogs do, had gone way too far.

    Problem was Turnbull thought he was always getting good stuff from Grech and let his senators rip and tear as the reward was the heads of Rudd and Swan.

    Bottomline : Turnbull was prepared to sacrifice Grech to get at an “email” that would bring down a government

    But this titbit was laced with strychnine.

  46. Go the Blues…………………….!

    But I think Queensland will win by 20

  47. IATW – same here – I am not looking forward to the trip back to Central with the Maroons supporters.

  48. joni, it will be wonderful, they’ll all be singing and chattering happy little souls cause their team will have just WON!

  49. Anyone else notice how badly Big Joe Hockey was sweating last night? Beads of sweat on his brow and upper lip, what a shame the ABC has no ad breaks so an assistant could be employed to wipe the sheen!

    Bob brown wants Eric Abetz to come under scrutiny for his part in the affair.

    It might not sit well with those who worship policital correctness, but I think a lot of people wish for leaders with the determination, and thick hides, of some of our earlier much admired leaders.

    It’s not PC it’s about morals and ethics. There’s something very wrong if a lot of people are happy to accept lies, deception and the use of faked documents to mount a character assassination on our PM and treasurer. Any other day these pollies are in the parliament spouting about morals and decency and how they are held to a higher example of integrity.

    Determination and a thick hide is OK as long as you are principled in your method of attack.

  50. @TB: *laugh* That’s a good impression 🙂

    @johnd: Actually, I’m with TB here. I think the average voter expects a degree if honestly in the elected representatives. Otherwise, why all this effort to catch Rudd & Swan out in an otherwise pointless lie. Grant didn’t get anything out of Swan’s efforts. That only leaves “honesty” or Swan’s lack of it as the impetus for pursuing him.

    I personally think Turnbull has passed the point in time where he can eat humble pie and get back that respect.

  51. But this titbit was laced with strychnine

    Nice story, IATW, it’ll kill the “dog” – but did the owner get enough poison on his own hands … 😯

  52. “but did the owner get enough poison on his own hands … ?”

    Possibly not.

    As to the nice story why else would Turnbull seek to agressively question Grech last Friday ?

    And what sort of nutter gardens at night ?

  53. Not fair, apologise joni and come back TB! (he’s always such a good sport being the butt of everyone’s jokes).

    And what sort of nutter gardens at night ?

    A mole – hehe!

  54. *And what sort of nutter gardens at night ?*

    … and what is he “planting” … 😉

  55. sorry, no italics were meant for the first sentence – could you fix please joni? Ta

  56. Thanks KL – I’m sure, joni, knew I was doing an impersonation … (no bloody reaction at all!) 🙂

  57. I reckon you could be spot on IATW & kitty 😀 😀 😀 😀 classic!

  58. TB – check your email to see my reaction.

  59. And what sort of nutter gardens at night ?

    A mole – hehe!

    Nice one Kitty.

  60. Turnbull on Sky: I wasn’t threatening Dr Charlton but just offering him ‘some friendly advice’.

  61. kittylitter, on June 24th, 2009 at 10:16 am

    In the bigger scheme of things, this fiasco will largely become an irrelevant diversion.
    Perhaps the longest lasting legacy may with the public servants who now might start to look more than twice at what they are being told or asked to do.
    I wonder what the atmosphere is like at present within the Treasury offices
    In private enterprise much is done on the basis of doing what has to be done and the paper work will eventually follow. I understand that in the public service it is very much the other way around, and something like this can only slow the processes down even more.

  62. SMH letter of the day award goes to Martin Connor (Balmain):

    And the OzCar goes to … Godwin Grech for Turnbull – My Part In His Downfall.

  63. This plot is thickening like cream. Let’s not get all pious about Grech the leaker (in the document sense rather than the piddling sense), as we’ve all held robust debates about all manner of issues on the basis of leaked information. I found Tony Jones’ line of questioning pretty rich using “unnamed sources” to push Hockey to give details about his “now named source”. Politics is full of “sources”, and when people ask me, as they often do, why, when I have such an interest and waste so much time in political discussion, I don’t just enter politics myself, one of the reasons is this sort of underground political to-ing and fro-ing is something I find kind of distasteful. The other reason is that I doubt many people would vote for me. Call me Tip.

    If one were to really speculate hard, one might ask just how Rudd was able to so quickly reach the conclusion that the “email” was a fraud. There seems to be some speculation that Grech got done in by a “sting” so, as untidy as this all is, it would be interesting to know who orchestrated the “sting” and the extent to which the Government were aware of it. Just to be difficult.

  64. Rud was able to state it was a fraud after a thorough check of their email archives. My guess is he was able to do it so quickly because:
    a) they knew that the email was sent to Grech – so could easily limit their search
    b) they knew that the email was supposedly sent by Dr Charlton – limiting the text further
    c) they had the exact text to look for, thanks to it being read out by Senator Abetz.

    Given the three of these together and the email archives of the government quite likely being indexed (processed to make searching easier) – the search would have been relatively quick. No conspiracy, just the fact they had enough information and current technology to make the search for the email fast.

  65. @joni: Man, that quote seems familiar… 😉

  66. I withdraw all of that, I read TB’s “scenario” whilst I was doing something else and took it as a “report” rather than the “idea” that was presented. Sorry about that.

  67. James of North Melbourne, on June 24th, 2009 at 10:51 am

    Trust no-one, James! Especially ME! 😈

  68. Ben – did someone here use it earlier? Did I miss it?

  69. The Liberals are claiming it is now <a href="http://livenews.com.au/feature/questions-over-treasury-mole-godwin-grech-dismissed-as-hysteria-/2009/6/24/210934"just "hysteria" causing people to ask about Turnbull & Grech’s relationship.

    What caught my eye was actually these lines…

    It’s claimed Godwin Grech has been supplying information to the party for 18 months.

    Opposition frontbencher Tony Abbott has told the ABC that’s not a crime.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was illegal. Nature 5?

  70. James of North Melbourne, on June 24th, 2009 at 10:39 am Said

    one might ask just how Rudd was able to so quickly reach the conclusion that the “email” was a fraud

    Too easy. He simply asked his staff if they had written any such emails. If the answer was No – then ..

  71. In private enterprise much is done on the basis of doing what has to be done and the paper work will eventually follow. I understand that in the public service it is very much the other way around, and something like this can only slow the processes down even more.

    Public service is meant to be slow and thorough, getting it right, can’t rush into everything like a turnbull at a gate, or mistakes are made and people suffer. Private enterprise is only interested in profit, but the public service is supposed to be about toiling away for little personal profit and self sacrifice, all for the greater good of the nation and it’s people. Not supposed to be politically active and working to bring your democratically elected government down.

    Have seen that speculation about a sting james – who knows, it’s not impossible, but isn’t Grech supposed to be the author of the fake email? I wonder too about other sources in treasury and whether Grech has been working with someone else – ?that guy from turnbull’s office who went to treasury a couple of weeks ago.

  72. BT Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought it was illegal. Nature 5?

    Peter Shergold always thought so.

  73. Nature, bearing in mind that I’ve withdrawn the conspiracy “hypothesis”, if Kevin Rudd were to ask that, and simply accept an answer in the negative, I think that would demonstrate that he is as dumb as Turnbull in simply accepting the word of his entire department especially given what we’ve all learned in the last few days.

  74. Ben I refer you my earlier link re Protection of Whistle-blowers and the implications of same for the individual.

    http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/EB-e/prb0127-e.pdf

    It is not illegal for Public Servants to brief Oppositions. It happens all the time but usually with the permission or at the direction of the Minister or CEO. But I think Godwin has moved far from briefing. Certainly he is outside the Code of Conduct.

    PS, I have never worked in the Australian Public Service only the State Public Service.

  75. “but I thought it was illegal”

    Of course its illegal.

    Could you imagine someone from Finance, the RBA ,or the ABS leaking policy decisions or other info to someone in the Money Market.

    Grech is on his way to a Zebra tan !

  76. James of North Melbourne,

    The allegation was that the email came from his Office not his Department, in particular from his economic advisor. Presumably he ‘trusts’ his staff.

  77. Plus he has impersonated another Commonwealth Officer who “sent” him the “email”

  78. the public service is supposed to be about toiling away for little personal profit and self sacrifice, all for the greater good of the nation and it’s people.

    Presumably, then, public servants would prefer not to be paid for such “self-sacrifice”, just so the purity of their motives couldn’t be called into question.

    😉

  79. Economic Advisor being Dr Andrew Charlton – A Rhodes Scholar who has some idea of Ethics and knows his way around Government.

  80. Tony, note the words for little personal profit . Not for zilch. Also check the professional code for other ‘professions’.

  81. Hmmm… Walrus has a good point. Even if it were legal for him to leak the email to the Opposition (which I don’t think it is); the person faking the email (which may or may not be Grech) is in deep shit.

  82. johnd, on June 24th, 2009 at 9:22 am Said:

    It’s one thing to determine which computer, (or perhaps phone) it may have originated from, another thing entirely to determine who the actual author is.

    Not at all as access to computers within departments is restricted and there are only so many people who work in a department area.

    If Grech allowed someone else onto his computer using his login then he will have to name that person in any enquiry or investigation. If he left his computer logged in unattended for any reasonable length of time then those who would have access to it would be limited and easy to investigate.

  83. Yes, I did note that, Nature 5. So which part of this paid work qualifies as self-sacrifice?

  84. Tony, the unpaid overtime would be a start.

  85. Adrian, I’ve been looking around for stories about Mal Brough and women. I can’t find any. Can you direct me somewhere?

  86. If he left his computer logged in unattended for any reasonable length of time then those who would have access to it would be limited and easy to investigate.

    Exactly. Presuming Grech has claimed that he is not the author of the email ( which would probably be a fair assumption given that he hasn’t confessed to writing it) I think it would be fair to accept that this is where the investigation is at right now.

    It will be a very easy task to determine whether the email originated from Grech’s PC or not.

    As Ben says, regardless of whether Grech’s actions in leaking the email to the Libs is questionable or not, whoever wrote the email is in deep shit.

  87. Nature..can you explain the difference between briefing the Opposition and leaking information?

    Wait..I think I have it, one is immediately channeled to a journo and the other isn’t.

  88. @joni: No, but I saw it a day or so ago somewhere. Either that or I’m having some weird deja vu.

    I actually thought you were bringing it up because it was written here first (which jived with my recollection of reading it)

  89. Oh dear, it’s just gotten worse for Talcum..

    There will be no public inquiry into the OzCar affair, after the Government used its numbers to block a Coalition motion in the Parliament.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/24/2606943.htm?section=australia

  90. Fair enough, Nature 5. (I will assume you’re not suggesting, or defending Kitty’s suggestion, that this kind of “self-sacrificial” unpaid overtime is unique to the public service.)

  91. Wow, I just read an article online on The Australian’s website. The “related stories” has only negative stories in regards to Turnbull’s future. Given their usual bias – this is pretty striking.

  92. Given that there is an AFP inquiry into this matter, I believe the details of this case should not be discussed by the politicians to the media. The public does deserve to know the details, but once the police investigation has concluded.

    I believe that Tony Jones was out of line in that interview. Hockey should have shut down his line of questioning.

  93. Questions for Peter Costello. Did you know what was coming? If so, did you quit because you considered Turnbull was on a winner and you were removing the distraction? Did you quit because you wanted no part in it?

  94. And sooo..the likely scenario is that Grech, thinking that he was doing a favor for the Libs via Turnbull who he knew was looking for ‘a something’ re Rudd’s ute came up with an email.

    Turnbull having previously received some ‘very good advice’ from Mr. Grech didn’t hesitate but to believe that this email was authentic.

    Hence an explanation as to why Turnbull didn’t bother to check the email’s authenticity.

    **The above previously described as sloppy, but Turnbull’s lack of scrutiny of the email makes sense if he had previously been syphoned other and accurate information.

  95. Thanks for asking James.

    I had a sense it was all going to turn to custard (so to speak) so I got the hell out.

    Just as well eh?

  96. I think that’s the case exactly Min.

    If Grech turns out to be the author, he’ll be looking at time in the slammer..

  97. Thank you Peter..how are things going in Israel? And why did you choose Israel specifically when you knew that the proverbial about to hit the fan?

  98. Reb..hello gorgeous. If Grech has to do time in the slammer, what about the recipients of these messages? Surely if any money has changed hands about these leakages, then one and all are dead meat.

  99. Or perhaps Grech made up his story of the PMO “contacting” him, and then created the email after the fact to “sustain” that story.

    As they say – it is not the first lie that brings you down, it is the lies that cover up the first lie that brings you down.

  100. James

    I’m not going to troll back through press releases and articles on the last election where they stated Mal lost because of the women’s vote turning against him. If you want to call me liar then do so, I really don’t give a shit about your antics on that front anymore.

    Mal’s lost was the biggest surprise of the whole election, even bigger than Howard losing his seat. I know I read that when the voting for his seat, which he held by over 6%, was broken down it was the female vote that had turned against him.

    If you want to prove me a liar then you go back through the electoral results on the government website.

    Mr Brough – Minister for Families, Community Service and Indigenous Affairs – was the highest-profile Coalition casualty in Queensland with a stunning victory to unheralded ALP candidate Jon Sullivan in Longman.

    Supporters of Mr Brough had prepared for a party with balloons, TVs, party lights, outdoor furniture and pizza ovens set-up at a friend’s house in Morayfield to celebrate.

    However, the mood of the gathering was sombre as the horror results continued to roll-in.

    Few residents questioned outside the marginal Liberal electorate knew of ALP candidate Jon Sullivan, but many voted for him.

    Mal lost to an unknown and even initial supporters of him turned, yet this is the person you want to lead the party. Then there were his exaggerations about pedophile rings in aboriginal communities (not a single one was ever discovered but he still went on as though it was fact) and other egregious statements he made to denigrate Aboriginals.

    No James, again if you don’t believe me stiff.

  101. Nobody is challenging me about the fact that Rudd called in the Feds when the Feds were already there.

  102. OK. Speculation time. Moving past Utegate for a bit.

    1. Will the Government pull a DD?
    2. Will the Opposition wind back their efforts to block legislation to avoid a DD?

    The landscapes changed quite a bit since Friday. IIf the Libs could have gotten another Minister they would have welcomed a DD. The Governments ratings are so high, the only reason to go to a DD would have been to remove a few annoying Senators to get the ETS through.

    Now? A DD could give the Government both Houses. Not in the Oppositions interests, ( I would have thought) to give the Government the trigger they want when it means electoral suicide.

  103. Peter Costello of ACT, on June 24th, 2009 at 11:50 am Said

    So, Tip, unlike Joe Hockey, you’re not a “team player”?

  104. Mobius/Adrian..this was certainly one of the very oddest things to have happened during the last election. And I don’t think that it had anything to do with women. And this is rarely discussed.

    The defeat of Mal Brough was not expected. This was in the middle of ‘the intervention’ but I would not have expected this to have had enough impact so as to unseat him. Mostly being an action person is a positive in one’s own electorate.

  105. Min, on June 24th, 2009 at 11:58 am Said:

    “Nobody is challenging me about the fact that Rudd called in the Feds when the Feds were already there.”

    It is going to be telling when it is revealed at what point Rudd knew the email was a fake, and Swan, and Grech.

  106. TB Queensland,

    I am a team player. I just like to play for the team that’s winning. The word on the Street is that Kevin might be fitting me up with a job soon. Just as well, as the job market’s a bit tough out there at the moment.

    Cheers
    Tip.

  107. brian, in “military terms” the Government needs to “roll over”* the Opposition as soon as possible – that means a DD.

    *Once you have taken the enemies position you don’t just sit there – you move on to consolidate your own position and dig in for a counter-attack!

    This was a classic mistake during Gulf War I when politicians got in the way of generals in a real war and they stopped them rolling into and past Baghdad … then what happened – Gulf War II

  108. Brian:

    1) on CPRS – maybe
    2) no they may allow Alcopops to pass, but they won’t move on CPRS.

    “A DD could give the Government both Houses”

    Not likely. That would require a Labor/Coalition to pick up 6 seats in every state plus an extra seat in one of the states or territories. To win 7 seats, a party ticket would need over 46.2% of the primary vote + additional preferences to take it to 53.9% of the vote. That sort of high vote (based on past senate results) is very unlikely, particularly for Labor.

    To win 6 seats still requires a high vote in the senate – over 40% primary plus preferences to get to 46.2%. That is plausible for both major parties but is unlikely to occur in every state.

  109. “That would require a Labor/Coalition …”

    I meant that would require Labor or the Liberal/National Coalition…

  110. N5, can’t help thinking that Brough suffered from the Workchoices etc Libs fallout a bit more than most?

  111. Capt’n Brough had an enormous swing against him, particularly severe given his very high profile at the time. He was defeated by Jon Sullivan a former State MLA who at best could only be described as mediocre. Nevertheless he received a swing of 10.2%, among the largest in the State, if not the largest.

    Capt’n Brough has now ‘cut and run’, away from the sunshine to chilly Victoria. Not only did he lose his seat he also failed to prevent the takeover of the Liberal Party by the Clive Palmer owned National Party,

    Put simply, Capt’n Brough’s miserable track record suggests he is anything but a saviour, but try and tell that to the Party faithful

  112. Brian..the last thing that the Libs will want is a DD, hence the reason that they have delayed the vote on the ETS until after August.

    Even with this delay this doesn’t give Turnbull any time at all to try to regain some sort of credibility. The intrigue re a false email will run for at least another week plus importantly will be the Last Impression prior to the winter break.

    The popular press are already turning it around to questioning Turnbull’s suitability to be leader of the opposition.

  113. TB Queensland, on June 24th, 2009 at 12:08 pm Said:
    “Once you have taken the enemies position you don’t just sit there – you move on to consolidate your own position and dig in for a counter-attack!”

    This is the biggest danger for Rudd, a successful counter-attack.

  114. johnd, hang in there JD!

  115. TB,

    The problem I’ve got with the war analogy is that a decimated ‘enemy’ – Her Majesty’s Loyal Opposition, in this case – is not conducive to government accountability, and our democracy would be the poorer for it.

  116. TB Queensland, on June 24th, 2009 at 12:18 pm Said:

    can’t help thinking that Brough suffered from the Workchoices etc Libs fallout a bit more than most?

    Not sure TB. Certainly Longman doesn’t have a high SES which would add weighht to your view. Brough also got the reputation of being lazy re local electorate issues which suggests to me that the staffing of his local office left something to be desired.

    He was not an easy person to work for apparently. When Borbidge left, his presser went to work for the Capt’n but was never happy in that spot and left to join the Borg as soon as he became Opposition Leader.

    I stress that Jon Sullivan is not a dynamo and to me, at least, the vote was against Brough rather than for Sullivan.

  117. Mobius Ecko, on June 23rd, 2009 at 6:04 pm Said:

    “James of North Melbourne, on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:41 pm Said:

    I think they need a real shake up. Get a real leader in ASAP, my suggestion is Mal Brough,

    Bad choice, read what he actually did during the NTER and the other baggage he has especially regards women. Women voters would run a mile from him and that’s an immediate alienation of 51% of the population. It was mostly women voters who in a surprise lost him his seat.”

    What’s the baggage, Adrian? What did he actually do during NTER, Adrian? Is this another false implication just thrown out there without basis, Adrian?

    Unbelievable that I actually accepted on face value the implication and went and looked for details. “What’s Brough done to women?” I wondered.

    Ironic that such a broad sweeping and apparently false smear appears in a blog where we are discussing what the consequences should be for Turnbull participating, consciously or otherwise, in a false smear.

    Adrian you need to understand the difference between a bit of speculation, which we all engage in, and outright fabrication, which you engage in frequently. Time and time again you have done it, you did it with Howard and the “Bottom of the Harbour” tax stuff most recently. It’s blatantly dishonest, Adrian, and you should stop doing it.

  118. Let’s keep it civil shall we folks…

  119. Fair enough too, Kamahl, but I do agree that some commenters should be a bit more careful and provide sources for some of their more serious accusations.

  120. Adrian, to be honest – I too am kind of stumped as to the “women & Brough” connection. I’d appreciate something to use when searching for it, Google is currently not my friend on this.

    On the whole, I think you’re being a little rough on James these last couple of days. On the whole, he’s been pretty straight down the line on the topic, even if he adds more weight to the case against Swan than I think warranted.

    He might be on the other side of most debates I participate in on the blog, but his request wasn’t unwarranted.

  121. Re Brough – try this link. http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2007/guide/long.htm

    Note Antony Green’s comments back in 2007

    Mal Brough would be favoured to win re-election,

    Now it is not a ‘marginal’ seat. Hence the ‘cut and run’ strategy.

  122. I know he was favoured (and thanks for the link on the numbers), but I am curious about the so-called “women dislike Brough” contention. I cannot find anything to support that, and noticed Adrian got somewhat testy when asked to back it up…

  123. As an example, here’s one assertion that would be pretty hard to sustain (and I’m not trying to gang-up on anyone; just pointing out an area where more care should be taken):

    I know I read that when the voting for his seat, which he held by over 6%, was broken down it was the female vote that had turned against him. Mobius Echo 11:57 am

    (Exit polls would be the only flimsy ‘evidence’ I can think of that could be offered to support such a claim.)

  124. Might I suggest that Mal Brough is a non-issue. It has been mooted that given that he now lives down in Victoria that he might make a run for Costello’s seat of Higgins.

    But only a few months ago..

    MAL Brough is far from dead to Aboriginal Australia. He’s back, working on a project on the Tiwi Islands he says will see him “walking the walk after talking the talk”.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23178334-601,00.html

    Mr Brough, the Howard government indigenous affairs minister who championed the Northern Territory intervention before losing his seat in the election, has been sighted on the Tiwi Islands, north of Darwin, being escorted by the Tiwi Land Council.

    Yesterday, he told The Australian reluctantly that he was seeking to make a profit from – and lend a hand to – the islanders in yet-to-be-finalised joint-venture projects on the islands.

    And then…he moved to Victoria…

  125. Well, I’d debate the fact that exit polls are “flimsy”. I’d take them over an other polls for sure.

    They are the most accurate form we have of determining the voter breakdown. After all, it’s not a poll on who you “intend” to vote for, but who you “did” vote for. And the selection of people chosen is slightly more random (i.e. no need to be home at a certain time and have a phone) – leading to a better cross-section of the population.

    Not debating their always completely accurate (statistics never are unless you sample the entire population, like Census 🙂 ), but they are far from flimsy.

  126. Tony, i don’t know about the truth or otherwise of the claim but there a other ways, apart from exit polls, of determining whether or not the Capt’n suffered at the hands of female voters.

    All political parties have research methodologies to determine the demographic breakdown of each electorate, including the ratio of men to women (easy) and also have qualitative research to determine whether certain candidates attract or repel various sub-groups. Even the national polls do that.

    I haven’t seen the research referred to but I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t done. Just sayin

  127. Try ‘was done’ LOL.

  128. B.Tolputt. As far as I know, there’s no way of possibly knowing who voted for who and why, let alone a gender breakdown of voters for a particular candidate. (Not even using exit polls, flimsy evidence or not.)

  129. B.Tolputt, on June 24th, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    You are right Ben, and I am sorry James, but I am sick and tired of James calling me up on just about everything I post (with Tony taking the clue and now also doing it), meaning I have to spend time I mostly haven’t got anymore chasing up things that I’m fairly certain my memory hasn’t mislead me on. I can only come to this board in short bursts nowadays and I’m certainly not going to spend much of that time looking up stuff that will only be dismissed out of hand anyway.

    One of the major factors for me leaving this blog last time was James calling me a liar and he’s moving that way again. And by the way I’m not the only one he plays that tactic with.

    Possum has data on how the Liberals used to skew for women, which they lost at the last election and have been slowly gaining back, Labor still heavily skews favourable to men. The ute affair will most likely lose all the Coalition gains with women voters.

    It was reported (and I can’t remember by who) when Mal Brough lost his seat in a surprise boil over, and noone is going to deny that it was a surprise, it was mostly women voters who had turned against Mal. Mal’s seat apparently skewed heavy with women voters and single mums which was a factor. Maybe Pollytics or Anthony Green have the data but surely there must be seat by seat voting breakdown somewhere and those more astute than I can find it?

  130. Mal Brough is not even in parliament. That suggestion is as good as the one suggesting Bill Shorten be Labor leader a few years back. I don’t think he’d be a good choice in any case.

    The Liberal Party needed Peter Costello this term after the last election. Unfortunately, he didn’t choose to help and became an impediment rather than an asset.

  131. Sorry if I went too hard but I spent a lot of time looking for what Adrian was talking about with “baggage and women”.

  132. Nature 5,

    I’ll agree that there would be extensive research done before and after an election, and this information may or may not be accurate – secret ballots mean it’s impossible to know for sure.

    (If such a survey is what Adrian was referring to, however, I’d love to read it.)

  133. “reb, on June 24th, 2009 at 11:35 am Said:”

    That ABC article is interesting in its slant. Would they consider writing that “Desperate Turnbull proposes to waste taxpayers money”? That would seem more accurate to me. There is already an AFP investigation and one by the Auditor-General for heavens sake!

  134. Of course you can Tony, that’s what polling does.

    How else do you think psephologists come up with data like this on women voters? (read the last bit).

    http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2009/06/24/holy-treasury-moley-batman/

  135. As far as I know, there’s no way of possibly knowing who voted for who and why, let alone a gender breakdown of voters for a particular candidate. (Not even using exit polls, flimsy evidence or not.)

    No, there is no way of “knowing” as it is possible that a significant percentage of persons polled will lie. That said, exit polls are pretty damn accurate at “guessing” based on their surveys.

    On the whole, I don’t think asking for 100% proof of Adrian’s claims is fair or even possible. But exit polls or an article discussing the polls would be somewhat desirable.

    @Adrian:
    I can understand the fact you cannot back-up everything. I was just a little taken back by the aggression in you reply. I was not aware you & James had history. I can somewhat understand your reaction, but think that James has been pretty level this past week at the very least 🙂 I’m not the one to lecture (having recently told an ex-poster to go @#$% themselves), so I’ll quit while I’m ahead…

    That said, I cannot find anything on Brough & women voters using the limits of my Google-fu. I’m no master, but I’m beyond the being called “grasshopper” 🙂

  136. Costello has an opinion piece in the SMH, where he says:

    I came to Canberra to do a job – not to get a job.

    But he never got the head job.

    (sorry 😉 )

  137. Joni, stop it.

  138. Sorry – just getting a bit frisky at the coming afternoon/evening… and I just meant the PM job… that’s all.

  139. O/T,

    James, isn’t that your horse Barachetta in the next at Sandown?

  140. You know something, joni? Costello may simply have been too ambiguous when he demand Howard give him the job 😛

    Explanation

  141. Ben – that’s just nasty.

    And I am watching Turnbull on Sky – how many times will he say “the reality is”?

  142. Oddly I’m feeling like this is somewhat off-topic but does anyone else feel the fact that this fake email was found on Grech’s home computer (presumably therefore sent to his personal email address although I haven’t seen that specifically stated anywhere) contributes somewhat to the general dodginess of this whole affair?

  143. Me? Nasty? I’m as pure as the driven snow I am! 😀

    Bloody hell, missing all the news today having to reserve the brain cells my flu hasn’t destroyed for code crunching… Is this news video online at all, joni?

  144. Oh for crying out loud… I think I should just give up on formatting…

  145. Ben – fixed it.

  146. OK after searching myself I can only find the backlash against Mal by ACOSS and single mothers groups over the overhaul of welfare payments to them. This got a fair bit of press at the time and came leading up to the last election.

    I know Mal Brough’s seat skewed more heavily with single mothers and women overall, and this overhaul of the welfare system didn’t just go down badly with single mothers but with women generally.

    I will stick by that I remember reading or hearing that it was mostly women who had turned against Mal Brough at the last election, and it turns out women in general turned against the Liberal party.

  147. Wow, are we due for another article/thread to contain the comments? Getting a bit long again…

  148. Thanks Adrian, will focus some searches around the ACOSS keyword.

  149. Don’t you worry Mobius/Adrian, I’ve been called far worse. And Aye to matelots.

  150. By the way is it Gretch or Grech?

    The media are spelling it both ways and even News Ltd has both spellings on their news sites.

  151. Only link I can find with discussion on polls & Mal Brough’s effect on women is a quote from “Insiders”… Perhaps you heard it on there, Adrian?

    And on spelling – I believe it is Grech, and the news sites are simply spelling it phonetically when they add the ‘t’.

  152. PM not answering the question.

    (I am watching QT and will blog some comments live)

  153. Yes, that’s it..single mothers were not impressed re Howard – nor for that matter were indigenous mothers.

    Anyway…Brough is gone and will not be coming back.

  154. Wow, Rudd is asking himself ALOT of questions… and then answering them. It’s like he is mocking his own bad habit there!

  155. Tony, on June 24th, 2009 at 1:19 pm Said

    it’s impossible to know for sure.

    Indeed! Just like it is impossible to know with absolute certainty that the sun will rise to to-morrow. Not that these two are of the same order, but if anything has to be proven to some order of absolute certainty, then it’s probably the case that no-one would cross the road. LOL.

    deb, on June 24th, 2009 at 1:43 pm Said:

    anyone else feel the fact that this fake email was found on Grech’s home computer (presumably therefore sent to his personal email address although I haven’t seen that specifically stated anywhere) contributes somewhat to the general dodginess of this whole affair?

    Yes! Tis a case of how low can you go.

    And if there was one person who is likely to crack under questioning, it is our Godwin. I suspect by now he has confessed to murdering his non-existent wife.

  156. Joni..that will be very much appreciated. Due to hearing problems, being able to read it is… wonderful!

  157. Opposition bench does not look happy.

    Turnbull is now on the Bennelong car dealer now… desperation.

  158. Rudd going for the jugular..just going by the body language and repeating of the word ‘false’.

  159. PM now bringing up the “mistakes” in Turnbull’s timeline of events… such as only knowing the contents of the email after the Tele published it.

  160. Climate Change (Dorothy Dixer) – but will hit Turnbull on the non-vote in the senate.

  161. The Opposition have said temperatures have come down.

    Tsk.

  162. I found it amusing when he said the “honourable member opposite” (i.e. Turnbull) lacking in integrity. Ironic how that worked out 🙂

  163. PM put M Farr into the mix as a witness to Turnbull’s dishonesty. That’ll hurt.

  164. Climate change sceptics..temperatures have dropped..ignoring the facts of what we used to call in the old’en days..pollution.

  165. Bam! The Liberals are digging a hole in the climate issue and Rudd is keen on pushing them into it.

  166. Rudd’s leading a chorus.

  167. That was a bad interjection by an opposition member.

  168. Will Abbott get up and say 3 and a half minutes again?

  169. “what has happened to the leadership of the member opposite?” LOL

  170. I think he will… reluctantly 😛

  171. Society has all the “tools” to act on CC!

    Can’t disagree on that…lol!

  172. Oo – six minutes!!! LOL

  173. Good call, joni!

  174. You’ve got it..Abbott.. Harry Jenkins, the member should resume his seat…

  175. Anyway my point still stands as to Jame’s original claim of Mal Brough for the next Liberal Party leadership. He has baggage that can be used against him and all the government has to do is bring up the overhaul of the parenting payment system

    I don’t think Mal is as popular as many people believe, especially conservatives.

    Also it doesn’t go with a clean sweep of the Party which is sorely needed. Mal can also be used as left over baggage from the Howard regime, and what should be happening is a sweep out of all remnants of that regime.

  176. Ow… Tony’s hurt… 😦

  177. Poor Colombians….

    And now Hockey is back onto Grant. They are gonna keep on and on about it. How about a question about the economy?

  178. Who said that Rudd is a nerd..he’s loving every minute of it.

  179. Must admit – 23 mins and 4 questions is a bit poor.

  180. Did someone here really say that the Australian was bias on the Haneef Affair?

    Obviously never heard of Hedley Thomas.

  181. Wow, we have representatives from Columbia in parliament seeing how low Question Time can go… sad 😦

  182. Who says Swan doen’t answer the question?

  183. Yeah, what happened there? My video feed was cut and now we’re talking about climate change…

  184. N5 – I missed his answer… I was distracted writing and then he was gone… did it really happen?

  185. The government can rave on about the science all they want, the legislation sucks!

  186. While the Opposition has been preoccupied and obsessing about a fake email..paralyzed in their obcession…

    Via Greg Combet….excellent effort.

  187. Bronwen !!! Be still my beating heart.

  188. Brownyn’s up – “yay – I got on tele”

  189. If the legislation sucks then they should vote it down, not delay the vote.

  190. Combet is very good.

  191. Quite right joni. If the legislation sucks, then what improvements are they suggesting? Any? None?

  192. Swan said simply. NO! Short, accurate, to the point and totally true. Besides it reduces the average answer time. LOL.

  193. Agreed. You don’t delay a vote because you disagree with it – you vote it down. I think it highlights the fact the Opposition are playing politics and not looking out for the country as a whole.

  194. Here it is – a censure motion against Swan.

  195. What’s the hurry, so the PM can go to Copenhagen to brag like he is leading the world?

  196. Wow, Turnbull has no clue how bad it looks that he is pursuing this triviality when he has just been called a coward for refusing to vote on legislation.

  197. I guess Turnbull really wanted this censure motion on the tele.

  198. If the opposition wanted to prove that John Grant Motors has now got benefit from the Treasurer they have sure done it now – not because of the actions of Swan, but because of their own actions! LOL

    Now – what was the name of the motor company again?

  199. Can we lock the doors and not let them out until we have a resignation?

  200. The Treasurer’s resignation?

  201. No scaper – if they do not like the legislation then they should vote it down, does it matter if they vote it down now or in August?

  202. Yes, it does matter!

  203. Voice from the background “Did anyone see the paper this morning? There’s an ad for a vacancy as leader of the opposition” LOL

    (may be not correct on all the words but that was the gist of the comment)

  204. Why does voting it down now or in August matter?

  205. DD trigger I believe, election in April at the earliest.

  206. Turnbull..going for it..might as well as he is dead meat anyway. That it is ‘proven’ that Swan has misleaden (sic) the house..political scandal..that Grant received more than other car dealers..a clear instruction from Treasury that Grant received more…

    Division required that the member (Turnbull) be no longer heard. And the vote is…and the vote is…(lock the doors)..

  207. BTW whose decision was it to fax these details to Swan’s home.? That’s right it was our ever reliable Godwin. Was he told to do that? If so, where is the evidence of that request? Did he have it in writing? Or was it his decision to fax certain documents (and not others) because only certain documents were part of the ‘plot’?

    We may never know, but given Godwin’s resilience under questioning we may get the whole box and dice.

    Talk about flogging a dead horse.

  208. This vote is exciting – what will the outcome be?

  209. Wow – the government won…. I am shocked 😯

  210. Speaking of Hoss. He done jumped up and waved his pinky around.

  211. Hockey about to jump over the table…

    Division again required..

  212. Ben, Thanks for going to the trouble, and as an avid watcher of Insiders that more than likely is where I got the link of women voting to Mal Brough. I also follow George Megalogenis and he made the point about the Liberals losing their female base. The comments in your link also go to the disenfranchising of women by the Liberals.

    I now only need to find the demographic break down of the Division of Longman and I think Anthony Green will be my friend in that.

  213. No questions from the opposition on the economy, on jobs, on climate change.

    Not a good look.

  214. Y’know? Some appropriate music should be played during divisions. Progressive barn dance anyone?

  215. brian – LOL – “The Pride of Erin” played on a gretsch guitar.

  216. What happened? Everyone crossed the floor. And they have done it more than once. We’ll all be …

  217. Scaper – the only issue then (if the double dissolution is the problem) is that the Opposition are more concerned with their own future than the legislation in question. If they were not worried about their own careers – they’d simply vote down the legislation.

    So, as I said earlier, they are just “playing politics”.

  218. Albanese : “the opposition leader knows a dead cat when he see’s one”

    Nice line – at least he did not say “cchk cchk boom”

  219. Fielding, Xenophon and the Greens are not voting for an ETS so what is the hurry?

    http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25683668-952,00.html

  220. So – have the vote Scaper – do not delay it.

    They should have the courage of their conviction.

  221. Another division…. woohoo!!!

    And here is the progressive barn dance brian… they’re swapping partners!

  222. Mobius..just from memory..wasn’t it that women were supposed to vote for Brough, but then they didn’t.

  223. Make them!

  224. That’s right, scaper. The public is served by definitely having legislation voted in or out. Leaving the legislation in “delay limbo” is bad for future planning. If the Liberals are going to vote the CPRS down (as they have stated), then they should get it done now so the public knows it’s out of the road

  225. And the problem for Turnbull is that he is the story now (whether he likes it or not) and that takes away his ability to get it back onto Swan.

  226. Been fun kids – but I have to run to Homebush for beer… bye for now.

    Go the Blues.

  227. Joni..re swapping partners..you’re just saying that to tease…

  228. Big Joe’s about to have a heart attack..

  229. Why can’t the Treasurer answer a simple question?

    Misleading?

  230. He did. He said – NO!

  231. Now Turnbull’s copping it for cloud seeding…pretty rich from someone who thinks they can change the climate!

  232. Reb..Swan’s name for the member for whats’it is Sloppy Joe.

  233. Re cloud seeding, the fact is that Turnbull while minister for the environment gave his you’beaut mate who had contributed to the Libs election campaign mega bucks re something experimental to do with cloud seeding.

    Mr Turnbull pumped $10 million into an experimental cloud-seeding technology company, rejecting the advice of his department. The company, Australian Rain Corporation, is owned by Matt and Clare Handbury, said to be friends of Mr Turnbull, who bought out their European partners in 2008.

  234. Now Turnbull wants a full judicial inquiry.

    Has the government got anything to hide???

  235. Oh for fuck’s sake Turnbull – give it up! A judicial inquiry is a waste of time & money and simply a diversion that is not working…

  236. What is question time?

  237. What is question time?

    Question Time is when the Opposition gets to ask any Question it chooses and the Government of the day via the relevant Minister gets to answer it anyway he/she sees fit.

    Been that way for years and years. Nay, decades and decades.

  238. Tony Abbott said “grubby smears” were not to be encouraged in parliament …

    The king of parliamentary smears said this?

    This is eerily similar to what he was doing on Lateline last week, where he would be accusing Tanner of doing something he had just the moment before done himself.

    I don’t know if this is a deliberate tactic by Abbott or that he genuinely can’t see the blatant hypocrisy he engages in.

  239. Agreed Nature, there might be some who do not realise the protocol of parliament. Anyone can ask a question if one might care to put a question to one’s parliamentary representative. What you need to do is to write and ask, something along the lines of: I would like you (X parliamentarian) to ask this question…

    Note: it has to be in writing..as you can imagine just a phone call to a secretary isn’t considered a genuine enquiry.

  240. TB Queensland, on June 24th, 2009 at 8:48 am

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeypot_(computing)

    Grech was locked in from the moment Steve Lewis phoned him repeatedly on Thursday night to tell Grech he was running with the story on Friday either way. Perhaps.

  241. Oh, Joe Hockey’s just been booted out of Parliament!

  242. Hockey gets an hour off.

  243. An hour is enough time to consume a leg of ham washed down with a fine bottle of red.

  244. Legion, on June 24th, 2009 at 3:41 pm

    Iffing that is so, repeated mummings by the Opposition about composition of the fake email are irrelevant; it was always about collection of the fake data and its distribution pattern.

  245. Moreover, if Grech were a mole, it’d be good to place him in his own little box over in Treasury away from the PMO, let him do his thing, and see what he did with the idea of “not your average constituent” wherever he gleaned that idea from.

  246. Legion..but but but..how did Steve Lewis get hold of the story if Grech was leaking only to the Liberals and something that Grech had been doing for a couple of years.

    Why was Grech horrified? Just a thought, because he had been assured that his anonymity was protectected absolutely but then was told that the story had been passed over to journo Steve Lewis.

  247. Wow, the relevant government minister wants Gunns Mill built!

  248. “Adrian, to be honest – I too am kind of stumped as to the “women & Brough””

    What Mal Brough did to women was the changes to the sole parent pension and the requirement they return to work when the kiddies turn 5.

    IIRC the ‘connection’ Adrien refers to was based on analysis of the results done by Possum or someone similar with a statistical bent which I think was either posted at LP or a link provided to another site.

  249. We are importing more timber products than we export!

    That’s because the third world forest products are cheaper than ours.

  250. I don’t know if this is a deliberate tactic by Abbott or that he genuinely can’t see the blatant hypocrisy he engages in.

    Mobius Ecko, on June 24th, 2009 at 3:34 pm Said:

    It’s in his DNA.

    He was exactly the same when I had the misfortune of attending Uni of Sydney with him.

    Just alot more rabid back then………!

  251. Huh..yep..I believe that might do the trick. Make it compulsory for women to go out and get jobs once your youngest turns 5yrs (later changed to 8yrs because some 5 yr olds are still in kindy). This was of course irrespective of the ability to obtain child care or whether a job offered was during school hours. Mission impossible.

  252. Question TIme was a real hoot. Rudd was on fire, absolutely nailing Turnbull. Combet did a good job too.

    I didn’t like the gag motions though. They ought to allow the speakers to be heard, at least for a few minutes.

  253. Turnbull still waffling about whether Grant received ‘special consideration’..not that Grant has recieved single brass razoo. I can imagine the Lib backbenchers and the Nats especially cringing about whether they have given ‘rolls royce’ treatment to any of their friends and family.

  254. Hmm, Mr Katter also called for a matter of public importance discussion. Wonder what it was? I’m sure it’d be more important than this utegate business.

  255. I didn’t like the gag motions though. They ought to allow the speakers to be heard, …………………

    Al, on June 24th, 2009 at 4:26 pm Said:

    It’s very difficult to do both at the same time.

    Just ask reb or joni………..!

  256. Just caught up with Elise on another blog and she agrees with me…the dingo did it!

  257. You’ve been visiting Jack’s place. 🙂

  258. I get around.

    I still reckon there should be a full judicial inquiry, the whole lot in the house would be ousted!

    Then the Dingo Party can run the country…all bite, no bark would be a welcome change.

  259. Here’s a joke from Bailey’s Mum over at Jack’s.

    Q. What could have changed the course of history?
    A. A dingo in Bethlehem
    chk chk boom!

  260. Why was Grech horrified? Just a thought, because he had been assured that his anonymity was protectected absolutely but then was told that the story had been passed over to journo Steve Lewis.

    Lewis is good because he can provide cover for getting the email out into the public domain anonymously and can claim he’s protecting his source, while crying out for ‘transparency’; which leaves Grech in an impossible position of having to tell the truth about something he shouldn’t have seen and/or shouldn’t know, even when given umpteen chances to avoid the trap, any of which would have resulted in Sunday’s gambit: ‘produce the email or resign, Malcolm’. And Monday’s default: ‘the email was a fake, just resign, Malcolm’. Perhaps. And still there’s that weirdness of Wednesday’s happy snap on the blackberry and the filenote.

  261. Hockey up chewing on the Treasurer…well. it is getting late in the day and one gets hungry.

    Why won’t the Treasurer appear on ABC current affairs programs to answer some questions?

  262. Why didn’t Grant have to produce financials and the others did?

  263. “Why won’t the Treasurer appear on ABC current affairs programs to answer some questions?”

    Because he will look bad. The Government want the focus to continue on Malcolm Turnbull and the Liberal Party.

    I believe there is evidence that John Grant was treated more favourably by Wayne Swan than any other car dealer in a similar financial situation. However, the fact that Mr Grant didn’t receive any favourable outcome from the government will probably let Mr Swan get away with it.

  264. It is very very obvious that the Feds were onto this for some time. Poor old Malcolm in a muddle.

  265. “Why didn’t Grant have to produce financials and the others did?”

    I believe it is because Mr Swan knew that Mr Grant was a friend of the PM and treated him favourably.

  266. Al, I just want the truth no matter who is at fault, this government’s election campaign included accountability and I don’t see it.

    Combet is up saying that a full judicial enquiry is a waste of money…that coming from this government?

  267. Al of course, this is going to be it. In order to prove that someone has been treated more favorably, then of course one has to be treated more favorably. One can make a squillion phone calls, paint posters on all the pub walls, but when push comes to shove, if that person receives zilch then there is no purpose to any of it…

  268. Al, on June 24th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    Kind of a catch-22, huh. The more dealings with Mr Grant, the more favouritism he might appear to have got. In fact, going into Grant’s financials might result in claims of…his being a mate… and getting… 😉

  269. The intent and misleading Parliament is the real issue!

  270. I believe there is evidence that John Grant was treated more favourably by Wayne Swan than any other car dealer in a similar financial situation. However, the fact that Mr Grant didn’t receive any favourable outcome from the government will probably let Mr Swan get away with it.

    This is precisely the same nonsensical proposition that Turnbull and Hockey are foolishly trying to pursue.

    If the result is that he did not receive any favourable outcome, then the issue of the process is irrelevant.

    I think that Hockey and Turnbull both know this (especially Turnbull), but as the Libs have already stated “backing down is not an option.”

    They are already in too deep.

  271. Still no Hansard for last Friday, why not?

    http://www.aph.gov.au/hansard/hanssen.htm

  272. CRAP!

    I wonder if the people here would be so defensive if the tables were turned?

    Silly question!

  273. Reb agreed..can you imagine each and every parliamentarian having to scour through each and every response to each and every application that they have received. Imagine it: Bob received 12 emails and Betty received 9 emails, Dotty received 8 emails and Dave received 7 emails. Whoa.Dave and Dotty have been disadvantaged because Bob and Betty have received more emails than they did.

    Anybody who has ever been in business would clearly recognise the ridiculous nature of this…

  274. Al, thanks.

    Obviously I was looking in the wrong place…it will be interesting reading.

  275. Is that right???

    Was there not an administrator looking after this?

    If all applications do not go through the same process then it would be construed as bad practise.

    Ridiculous!

  276. Al, on June 24th, 2009 at 5:06 pm Said:

    I believe there is evidence that John Grant was treated more favourably by Wayne Swan than any other car dealer in a similar financial situation. However, the fact that Mr Grant didn’t receive any favourable outcome from the government will probably let Mr Swan get away with it.

    You don’t see anything wrong with that. You can believe there is evidence all you like, doesn’t mean there is any.

    I believe there is evidence that Turnbull put Grech up to faking the email and sending the faxes to Swan to bring down Rudd and Swan,

    E’s not pinin’! ‘E’s passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! ‘E’s expired and gone to meet ‘is maker! ‘E’s a stiff! Bereft of life, ‘e rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed ‘im to the perch ‘e’d be pushing up the daisies! ‘Is metabolic processes are now ‘istory! ‘E’s off the twig! ‘E’s kicked the bucket, ‘e’s shuffled off ‘is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!

  277. Speaking of parrots…

  278. “You don’t see anything wrong with that. You can believe there is evidence all you like, doesn’t mean there is any”

    My believes are based upon evidence. The problem is that you can’t see that they (the two phrases that you highlighted) are different. It appears that he received favourable attention. Mr Grant received a phone call from Mr Swan. No other car dealers did. Mr Swan received info about Mr Grant at his home fax. Did any other car dealers? There is more information suggesting favourable treatment but I’m sure you won’t bother looking for the information before forming a judgement.

  279. scaper…, on June 24th, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    Thing is scaper, as you yet again flip flop, they are not being defensive. It appears to me that it is the conservative supporters who are attempting the best form or defence, attack, in a forlorn hope that pressure can be taken off the Coalition and they don’t implode.

    This is just another form of what has been happening for over 18 months now. Just keep throwing as much muck as possible at the fastest rate feasible and pray with all your might that one smidge might stick.

  280. Al, on June 24th, 2009 at 5:06 pm

    Al, on June 24th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    I believe? Might?

    Proof?

    The technique is one I’m familiar with – sound rational and calm but its the content that’s suspicious – create a bit of “maybe” here and “could have” there and before too long … makes interesting reading though …

  281. Agree Mobius Ecko – ALL of the evidence being relied upon by the Liberals comes from the the same (now suspect) source – Godwin Grech…

    Who sent the emails to Swan?
    Who spoke to Ford Credit?
    Who’s up to their eyeballs in the email forgery?
    Who made the claims in Senate hearings?

    ALL the same answer – Godwin Grech.

    This could get uglier for Turnbull.

  282. “The intent and misleading Parliament is the real issue!”

    That’s the case that is against Swan, I agree. However, it does make it harder to convince people of wrong doing given the outcome.

  283. Wow! A phone call. Just make certain that if you ever enter public office to never phone anyone…

    There is no proof of favorable attention because Mr Grant has received nothing.

    On the other hand if Mr Grant had received favorable treatment, that he had actually received something..but he didn’t and all else is just speculation about what might have happened, but didn’t.

  284. Al, on June 24th, 2009 at 5:38 pm Said:

    I see *you* have made a judgement on very flimsy “evidence” – it is still a “free country” and phone calls between acquaintences are not illegal …

    I see you are still pushing the LIBERAL Party line (very subtly I might add) with each of your posts and occasionally “praising” ALP political performance …

    … nice fogging too …

  285. AI can you please point me to where Grant received phone calls from Swan over getting a favourable deal and the evidence that on faxes on Grant were sent to Swan’s home. Also can you tell us was it Grech that sent those faxes?

    Can you please point me to the additional information?

    Now AI was the email fake or not, and did not Turnbull demand Rudd immediately resign over a fake email from an inside informant Turnbull had regular and recent contact with?

    How quickly you have moved off that gem and onto the sideshow of Swan.

  286. Off to watch the SOO at son’s … two minute stagger after we have clobbered the Opposition 😆

    Origin History made tonight!

    GO MAROONS! GO QUEENSLANDER!

  287. Thanks scaper for picking up my point and confirming it.

  288. TB,

    Oh where do I begin?! By the way I’m glad to provide entertainment. I find your remarks very entertaining also!

    I won’t address your laughable suspicions and accusations. They are too ridiculous, can’t be proven or disproven, and don’t deserve any more attention than the last couple of sentences I’ve just written.

  289. TB, we all know you are attempting to divert attention away from Swan’s guilt. You don’t fool anyone.

  290. Adrian, I don’t care who might be the guilty party in this, I want to see the truth come out, that’s why there should be a full judicial inquiry!

    I believe unless this eventuates we will not get the truth…look at it this way, if Turnbull is involved he would be found out, same for the Treasurer.

    Gee, if I was an armed robber I would like some here on the jury…”because he didn’t get the money in his attempt to rob the bank, he is innocent!”

    Not a brilliant analogy but I’m sure you get my point, maybe.

  291. Al, a waste of time and effort trying to point score against TB..he is not a game player but calls it as he sees it, and anyway he is off to watch the MAROONS. And so am I.

  292. Ecko, read through the last couple of Hansards. Swan has given some information to the parliament. Read news articles to find quotes and links. I’m not going to be your secretary.

    “Now AI was the email fake or not”

    The AFP says it is a fake, so I believe that to be the case.

    “did not Turnbull demand Rudd immediately resign over a fake email from an inside informant Turnbull had regular and recent contact with?”

    It is not yet clear whether or not that is the case.

    Clearly the most serious matter in all this is the fabricating of this email. I’ve never claimed otherwise.

  293. I dont believe Turnbull knew the email was false. If he did then why would he have let his own senators loose on Grech last Friday.

    I think Grech titilated Turnbull much like a woman might flirt with a guy in a bar late at night.

    Grech : “Hey big boy……………………I bet your friend Joe has told you all about me”

    Turnbull : “Well yeh he has……….and he said you’ve got something I’d really like.

    Grech : “Well Yes big boy………..guess what I’ve got for you”

    But such a conversation does not mean Turnbull is going to “score”.

    After much conversation that semed to be neverending Turnbull thought Grech was being a tease not having actually “put up” so he thought he’d cut him adrift to get to what he was desperately after.

    That’s why Turnbull let his senators loose on Grech.

    Turnbull then got the shock of his life when he reached out and realised much to his embarassment that the “Lady” was actually a “Ladyboy”.

  294. “Al, a waste of time and effort trying to point score against TB”

    What on earth are you talking about? I’m glad I haven’t wasted any time. Isn’t everyone on this site calling it how they see it?

  295. scaper…, on June 24th, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    Pay close attention to Senator Cameron and what he foreshadows.

  296. Excellent analogy Walrus. As I said previously..Turnbull’s lack of scrutiny of the email only makes sense if Turnbull had previously been fed accurate information from the same source and therefore had no reason to question whether or not this email was false.

    This is where we began: Why didn’t Turnbull bother to check the accuracy of the email?

    Now we know..it came from the same source…

  297. Al, on June 24th, 2009 at 6:00 pm Said:
    “Clearly the most serious matter in all this is the fabricating of this email. I’ve never claimed otherwise.”

    Until the actual author is identified, as well as the reasons that the email was sent, it’s still all speculation.

  298. Scaper,

    Surely an investigation by the AFP and an investigation by the Auditor-General will discover the complete truth of this matter? The truth is exactly what I’m interested in. Some people on this site seem to only be interested in the truth that suits their biases.

  299. B.Tolputt, on June 24th, 2009 at 8:32 am Said:

    “The Liberals have this strange notion that if they simply ignore what the media are talking about and what the public are interested in…”

    Yeah it worked from 1996-2007, Tol. Different mob now, which HRH Hockey is doing his best to ignore. Looks like there’s a few more votes for the Oscar, re his insane belief that no one will remember emailgate!

    kittylitter, on June 24th, 2009 at 10:16 am. Hear! Hear!

    BTW, why the ferk is Trunchbull demanding an apology from Rudd? Is it for catching the Libtards out?

    Min, on June 24th, 2009 at 11:50 am, Truchbull should still have gone through the motions if he was going to pull it off. The sloppy way the Libs went about this sting is risisble. How stupid do they think Rudd and Swan are? As soon as Malvolio claimed the email had fallen off the back of a northbound ute the day before it was actually published.

    Coupled with the fact that Abetz was obviously in possession of the text the day before Trunchbull claimed to have seen it, would have been enough for Rudd to smell a rodent and bung out the bromakil. Grech’s performance would also have got the rodent radar twitching as well.

    The speed with which Rudd called in PC Plod and the AG’s dept all points to the fact that he’d sussed that there was something very suspect going on.

    I did hear on ABC news today that Grech took it upon himself to fax all the emails concerning John Grant to Swan’s home fax.

    Apparently, Swan hadn’t asked for that action at all. So, methinks Grech, either at the behest of Malvolio or Hockey, or completely off his own bat, decided to deliver what he thought would be the death blow for Swan.

    Also, the cops (and the government) think that a much higher ranking PS rat has also been handing over sensitive info to the opposition. These include leaking docs late last year about FuelWatch. In the meantime, they’re going to put the heat on Grech.

    Also from the Advertiser.

    When’s the next half Senate?

  300. “Until the actual author is identified, as well as the reasons that the email was sent, it’s still all speculation”

    Yes except for the fact that the AFP publicly stated that the email is a fake.

  301. Al..you wrote about TB: I won’t address your laughable suspicions and accusations. They are too ridiculous, can’t be proven or disproven, and don’t deserve any more attention than the last couple of sentences I’ve just written.

    By gee, sounds to be the writing style of somebody else…

    Am now most definitely off to watch the Maroons..hope to catch up tomorrow morning…

  302. Min,

    I agree. The conduct of the LNP senators last Friday makes no sense if Malcolm and them knew the email was false.

    Previous accurate leaks of info and the rumour of such a damaging email proved unbearable for the LNP. They just had to get to it no matter what (i.e. cut Grech adrift) because it could bring down a government.

    Clearly if they had to sacrifice Grech who was seemingly reluctant to provide them with the email then so be it.

    The “Payoff” was much bigger than what Grech was worth to them.

  303. Strangle, strangle.. Wake up Australia! No wonder Rudd was so quick to call in the Feds..it was because they were already there doing an undercover investigation.

  304. Off to the wide-screen in a few minutes… couple of questions before I go though…

    jane: Do you have a link for the “Grech took it on himself to send the emails to Swan’s fax” snippet? I think, given the fact he is the current main suspect for the email that this would tie everything in a nice little bow for Labor.
    “Yes, Swan did recieve those faxes, but they were sent by the same guy who faked the email you’re relying on! Who knows what else your little stooge did to try and undermine our legitimate government!?” and similar

    scaper: Until there is evidence of wrongdoing, calling a judicial inquiry into the matter is premature. At the most there is a weak circumstantial case that might have been cause for inquiry had the central communicator (Grech) not been the author of a fake email. Weren’t you the one asking “Why the rush?” on the CPRS legislation? A non-partisan reply to you would be “Why the need for judicial inquiry?” After all, we wouldn’t want to rush to waste money on the matter would we?

  305. Uh wah? . . . .just woke up . . . . .is there some game thingie on?

  306. “By gee, sounds to be the writing style of somebody else…”

    I disagree with that assertion. I’d also point out that this thread is about the alleged actions of the Treasurer, the Prime Minister, the Leader of the Opposition, the staffers in those members offices and anyone with any link to the alleged fake email. I do not know why TB thinks it reasonable to cast aspersions about me. I think for myself and form my own judgements. I assume others on here do the same.

  307. johnd, on June 24th, 2009 at 6:13 pm Said:

    Until the actual author is identified, as well as the reasons that the email was sent, it’s still all speculation.

    The only facts known is that there is a fake email, author unknown and that Grech is a Liberal mole, and as you say everything else is speculation.

    AI, for someone professes to only want the truth you certainly do engage in a lot of unfounded accusations, innuendo and speculation, and all against one side whilst you claim others here are biased.

  308. Tol, sorry it’s taken a while, but have finally found a link for the fax comment. I knew I’d heard or read it. Phew! Seniors moment averted. Face saved etc. 🙂

  309. scaper…, on June 24th, 2009 at 5:54 pm Said:

    Adrian, I don’t care who might be the guilty party in this, I want to see the truth come out, that’s why there should be a full judicial inquiry!

    So you are saying the AFP are not capable of getting to the truth. If they fail then it should come to a judicial enquiry and Turnbull and the opposition should name all their moles and the full timeline of the information they have gotten.

    If you and the rest of us want the truth then it has to be the whole lot with no selectivity. I have a feeling if that were to happen then the opposition won’t come out smelling pretty at all.

    So how far does this go scaper? And why the rush, surely the AFP must complete their investigations first and then feed their findings into any enquiry?

    And while we’re at it why not look at Turnbull’s past dealings, HIH, investments and the giving of $10 million to a mate to make rain out of a cloudless sky.

    Just let this run its course and eventually improprieties will be revealed and maybe it won’t be quick enough for the liking of some nonetheless these things have a way of outing.

    For stuff sake scaper, this hunting of Swan is such small bickies as compared to what the previous government were able to walk away from in stacking enquiries and refusing to have judicial enquiries, so I really have to wonder why there is so much more emphasis now to get a scalp than for more egregious malpractices back then.

  310. Thanks jane – good to know… another nail in the coffin of the case against Swan

  311. Damn – for some reason the link isn’t working for me…

  312. Link doesn’t work for me jane.

  313. I figured this might be easier than wrestling with uncooperative links, Tol.

    Khamal, I beg your indulgence on the length of the comment.

    Matthew Franklin, Chief political correspondent | June 24, 2009
    Article from: The Australian

    THE public servant at the centre of the OzCar scandal was not asked to send messages to Wayne Swan that have formed the basis for opposition attacks on the Treasurer’s honesty.

    Mr Swan told parliament yesterday that Godwin Grech sent messages to his home fax machine about Ipswich car dealer John Grant on his own initiative, not because he was asked.

    The faxes have been closely scrutinised in recent days as the opposition has used parliament to seek to establish a case that Mr Swan went out of his way to help Mr Grant, a friend of Kevin Rudd, to gain access to the government’s OzCar fund. The fund was created earlier this year as a special funding vehicle designed to help car dealers gain finance during the credit squeeze caused by the global recession.

    Last Friday a Senate committee was told updates relating to the Grant matter were being copied to Mr Swan’s home fax.

    An email tendered to the hearing by Mr Swan’s departmental liaison officer, Andrew Thomas, to Godwin Grech, the Treasury official in charge of the OzCar fund, said: “Thanks, Godwin, great work. Just so you are aware, these emails are also going to the Treasurer’s home fax.”

    On the basis of that and other evidence, Malcolm Turnbull has repeatedly accused the Treasurer of misleading parliament on June 4 when he said Mr Grant was being treated in the same way as any other car dealer seeking assistance.

    Yesterday, as the opposition continued to pepper the government with queries about the extent of help the government gave Mr Grant, Mr Swan said he had not sought special progress reports about Mr Grant.

    “In relation to the ones that went to my home fax from Mr Grech, they simply went there because he hit reply-all to a communication from my office,” Mr Swan said.

    “That is why they ended up there. I never asked for them to be sent there in the first instance by Mr Grech because my office was using my home fax to put a lot of material through.”

    Mr Swan said he would not apologise for having work-related material faxed to his home, particularly when, as was the case at the time of the Grant communication, he was working long hours to solve a major problem.

    The OzCar affair dominated political debate yesterday, with Mr Turnbull admitting in an early morning radio interview that he had had recent contact with Mr Grech. “I certainly have spoken to Mr Grech,’ Mr Turnbull told ABC radio.

    “He’s a very highly regarded public servant and has worked … for both sides of politics.”

    Mr Turnbull also insisted the opposition had nothing to do with the concoction of an email purportedly sent from the Prime Minister’s office to Mr Grech asking him to help with Mr Grant’s case.

    Australian Federal Police confirmed on Monday that the email, sent from a computer at Treasury to Mr Grech’s home computer, was a fake — news that undermined Mr Turnbull’s demand on Friday that Mr Rudd resign over the affair.

  314. It must be hard for some to keep a straight face when repeating the line that reliance was placed on Grech’s testimony, when that testimony was equivocal from Grech in the first instance, and nearly everyone else in that room underscored repeatedly the extent to which just how unsure was the ice about to be tap-danced across.

  315. This matter is obviously of great interest and great importance to a number of people who blog here, and the media are fully immersed and making hay whilst the sun shines, but how much importance would anyone observing from afar, able to see the bigger picture, attach to the whole affair. Is it really such a big deal?

  316. ‘Whodunnit’ is a staple genre, johnd. For mine, it beats Fielding’s pamphlet: ‘there is no global warming’. It’s a cold world and not very green on Mars for the outposts of The Triumvirate, even if there is rust and a ute would be beaut for transporting the contraband.

  317. No, the initial case made against Swan (& Rudd) is ridiculous. Now the story is about Turnbull’s accusation, judgement (or lack thereof), the future of his leadership given this monumental stuff-up.

    The initial situation was trivial, petty politics and not really newsworthy. If I had to make a call, I would say it was a part of the Liberal’s minister-by-minister plan on how to discredit the government. Probably a week’s worth of small-time news.

    The current situation is about Turnbull because, let’s face it, his career as leader is over. He demanded the resignation of the Prime Minister and called him (& a member of his senior staff) a liar. On the basis of a flase email. And now refuses to apologise. The issue has changed and it is now a much more interesting one 🙂

  318. “AI, for someone professes to only want the truth you certainly do engage in a lot of unfounded accusations, innuendo and speculation, and all against one side whilst you claim others here are biased”

    So are you saying I’m not allowed to form a judgement (one which is speculative not definitive) based upon facts that are on the public record? Meanwhile you ask me to provide well-known facts to you. Have you formed a judgement of any kind on this matter? I am quite open to changing my judgement on this, particularly if other facts come to light.

    By the way, have you had a read of the Hansard of that infamous Economics Committee hearing last Friday? I think it’s very interesting reading. The behaviour of just about everyone there – the Liberal senators, Labor senators, Mr Grech and Mr Martine – is quite curious.

  319. The behaviour of just about everyone there – the Liberal senators, Labor senators, Mr Grech and Mr Martine – is quite curious.

    I dressed them in togas for the appropriate I CLAVDIVS feel. 😉

  320. Watching the games being played out in Parliament, it seems that rather than becoming more serious, it’s becoming more of a farce. Who is taking anyone seriously any more?
    It’s just a game of football, and they all are going to be that jack of it all at the end that they all will be happy enough just to call a cease fire and forget about any lynching.

  321. Al, when that poster makes that accusation of you, can I suggest you do what I did? Watch what he posts, watch what he presents as facts, check those those “facts”, and take great delight in pointing out to him that in most cases he is full of shit.

    Ben, I tend to agree with that, but there is this question.

    One party sees evidence brought before a Senate Committee from a previously reliable witness backed by what purports to be a genuine email and demands of the PM to “explain himself or resign”.

    The other party discovers that the “email” has turned out to be a forgery and demands of the first party to “explain his role in the creation of the fraud” or words to that effect.

    Now most of us I think would agree that whilst Turnbull is a complete fool for not checking the email and should resign, it’s pretty unlikely on the evidence to date that he played any part in the forgery itself.

    So is Rudd not behaving equally as moronically in implying that Turnbull has committed a criminal act?

  322. Well, Turnbull may not have done something “criminal”, but he has defamed Rudd outside the protection of parliamentary privilege. It’s not criminal, but it is against the law.

    Turnbull is letting his ego get in the road of common sense. As a lawyer, Turnbull knows he need to apologise legally or remain liable to large defamation damages. That he cannot back down in the face of reality shows a profound lack of sense.

    It actually reminds me of someone who used to post here…

  323. But here’s the thing, Ben, Rudd’s done the same, with probably less basis.

    Funny thing is, my personal feeling is that Rudd shouldn’t resign and Turnbull should. Yet when I look at it objectively, Rudd is doing the same bloody thing. I said a few days ago that the ALP should be pretty cautious about dancing on graves here, and I am having an even stronger feeling about that now.

  324. Started a new thread on this subject here

    Just trying to keep the load times on the pages reasonable 🙂

  325. Trunchbull is still banging on about communications of any type from Swan to Grant. He seems to be clinging to the idea that he’ll exonerate himself and claim Swan’s scalp if he just keeps beating his head against that particular brick wall.

    I thought Hockey was going to explode just before he got slung out of the house. In contrast to those two spootheads, Abbott was subdued and well-mannered. Even Ruddock looked like a normal human being.

    James, Trunchbull still should have checked the provenance no matter where he thought the email might have originated and borne in mind the adage if a thing looks too good to be true, it is too good to be true.

    Martin Hamilton-Smith thought the same thing about his “evidence” against Rann. He wasn’t quite as stupid as Malvolio, but still wasn’t thorough enough and paid the price.

    Unlike that idiot Malvolio, he had the wit to apologise to the house and leave the thing alone, which will most likely save his skin as leader of the opposition. However, I put this down to the fact that although he’s pretty opinionated he’s not just a colossal ego on legs, like his federal counterpart.

    joni: Ben has put up a new thread, so I have closed this one for comments.

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