A Swan dive – or a Rudderless goverment (continued)

For the benefit of mobile users, let’s continue the discussion here…

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384 Responses

  1. This is the sort of stuff that us poli-tragics love eh?

  2. Abso-bloody-lutely joni!!!

  3. Joni

    evidently … Yes.

  4. Sky: Helen McCabe deputy editor Daily Telegraph provides that they have not sighted the email but were under the impression that the Opposition had it.

  5. Live parliament in case you missed my last link:

    http://media.smh.com.au/national/breaking-news/live-utegate-battle-597513.html

  6. I’ve got three screens in front of me, popcorn and an esky full of soft drinks.

    I’m no tragic!

  7. Esky? …. of to the fridge for an early coldy.

    I’m back …. ahhhhh.

  8. Yeah, about the most exciting time I’ve had in politics barring the election where Howard’s Government was voted out.

  9. Hmmm… fizzy drink… back in a sec! 😛

  10. Dave 12:28 (previous thread),

    Yes, Dave, it was definitely worth pushing, even if only to protect the integrity of the institution of parliament (although I’m definitely not attributing any such lofty motives to Mr Turnbull). Any question that a member or senator may have misled parliament should be pursued to the fullest.

  11. The PM says there was an investigation into Treasury and there was no email.

  12. What’s Big Joe doing?

    I’ve got visual (thanks Daphon) but no sound at work..

  13. Min,

    That’s an incredible admission..

  14. The stream is crapping out a bit. But it looks like Joe is trying to use the fraudulent email discovered in Grech’s home as proof there was an email and hence Turnbull is all good.

  15. David Speers looks worried..as in I had already worked out what I was going to say but now I’m being expected to adlib.

  16. And back to the Treasurer’s integrity and “not letting Wayne Swan off the hook”.

  17. Reb I can’t find a link via Sky News yet..but such things are often difficult to locate on their website, with no ability to do a search other than a Google.

  18. Tony,

    I agree about the misleading parliament thing. My question was whether the questions that led to Rudd making the statement in the first place were warranted. This all started because of an alleged link between Rudd’s Ute and request for assistance in February 09 – some 20 mths after the Ute was loaned to Rudd. I can’t for the life of me see this as an abuse of power issue which is what the Libs have asserted it is from the beginning.

  19. Gone so far…….

    Swan, Turnbull………..

    Who’s next?

  20. scaper …

    The PM’s comment related to a search of Treasury emails from PMO, not a search of all treasury emails.

  21. And now the smear is trying to include Rudd through the “free car”. Both sides are playing their A-game on this… I think Labor is holding the better cards though.

  22. Hockey’s not looking so flash James.

    I wouldn’t right off Swan yet either.

  23. Now Hockey is slagging the Treasury department (i.e. public servants) as if them sending an email at 5:15 PM is something unusual…

  24. I don’t think Joe’s balls have dropped yet or he’s about to lose his voice. Not leader of the opposition material.

  25. Hockey needs speaking lessons!

    At least he knows how to say “Mr Speaker’.

  26. The feed is getting slammed – I wonder if this is because so many people are interested at the moment?

  27. I’ve no problem with the feed through the SMH.

    Hockey is very unimpressive.

  28. Be prepared for alot of the following quote – “We’re not going to let the Treasurer off the hook.”

    Major PR game being played out today

  29. Where’ve Rudd and Turnbull gone? To lunch?

  30. Got it courtesy of Daphon’s link. Hockey could be opening up a can or worms..such as how many representations has he himself made for business groups, individual small businesses and indeed the local girls soccer club. And did these groups and clubs receive preferential treatment due to his representations on their behalf.

  31. Daphon

    I’ve no problem with the feed through the SMH.

    Hockey is very unimpressive.

    He is as equally unimpressive on the ABC stream.

  32. If Swan keeps on about “the email” he’s toast. The “fake email” doesn’t relate to him.

  33. They’re back: must have been a loo break.

    (Together? 😉 )

  34. Sloppy Joe I think would have preferred being Minister for SerfChoices over this ordeal.

  35. Swan is pretty ordinary too… Definitely a battle between Rudd & Turnbull on this as their Treasurers are somewhat lacking.

  36. I wonder how many cars John Grant has sold recently with all this priceless publicity?

  37. The Opposition benches are looking a wee bit sparse. All taking a loo break while Hockey was speaking?

  38. I was just listening to the broadcast – and on the face of it, the evidence against Swan is that he misled parliament and must go.

    But I still think that Turnbull will go too.

    Maybe it will be like spy-scandals, where one side expells two spies, and so the other side expells two “diplomats” – it all balances out in the end.

    So will it be, we will give you Swan, if you give us Turnbull?

  39. So who’s the judge on this? Swan’s not going quietly. Will it be opinion polls or the balance of journalistic opinion. And to what extent will the “email” detract from all of this?

  40. All that talk about a 2yo in the Senate? This playpen is embarrassing.

  41. James, regardless how this turns out Labor will take a hit at the polls.

  42. I think you’re being a little premature joni & James – Swan is looking quite safe at this stage IMO.

  43. joni,
    For Swan to have mislead parliament, it has to be shown that he did give special treatment to Grant. That’s where the other emails and faxes re other dealers come in. Swan talking about it at the moment. Looks like some of the other dealers got equally good treatment meaning he didn’t mislead Parliament.

  44. I think the best the Opposition can hope for Swan to be turfed along with Turnbull. Had Turnbull left it as an attack on Swan only – it would have been a slam dunk.

    However, the email is going to be a distraction as it colours the attacks against Swan as being lacking even though the evidence is reasonable against him.

  45. Swan’s sounding pretty good on this….

  46. So the bogus email has now been found on a Treasury computer.

    Fingers are being pointed at that nervy Treasury official.

  47. Not premature, Bacchus, I held my opinions on the information available to me at the time.

  48. scaper.

    Rudd might take a pit of a hit in his approval but the Libs look woeful coming out of this. Any drop in labor would have to come at the the gain of the Libs and I can’t see that happening.

  49. I can’t see why Swan has to take a dive on this.

  50. Swan is pointing out that he has over 130 emails from Grech. It’s going to be a difficult for T’bull to prove that Grant received special consideration.

  51. James, regardless how this turns out Labor will take a hit at the polls.

    Yes, but I think it’ll be because of the disgust being generated against ALL politicians. The Liberals are going to cop it worse but (as has been mentioned in other threads) they don’t have anywhere near as far to fall.

  52. Tolputt, I agree…whilst they keep us divided there is nothing we can do about it.

    A new political party would be interesting.

  53. Dave,

    I was taking notes 😉

    130 emails to Swan’s office (from Grech since last November);
    80 of these cc to Secretary of Treasury;
    30 of these attn Wayne Swan;
    20 referred to car dealers;
    ‘Only a handful’ related to John Grant;

    Therefore a handful (5?) of 20 relating to car dealers were specifically about John grant i.e. one quarter of all car dealer emails related to JohnGrant. Faxes to Swan’s home fax weren’t mentioned at all in that evidence of ‘equal treatment for all’.

  54. Abbott talking about integrity in govt! LOL

  55. Tony – a “handful” could be as small as three emails (meaning only 15%). The faxes seem to be hard copy of emails – not an unusual thing for some people who (unlike us) spent most their time away from the computer.

  56. I am going to get a thread up on what the polls will say about this…. so let’s keep that discussion for that thread.

  57. Did Swan trash his office???

  58. Abbott is up.

    Now accusing the PM of carpet bombing, well after all, it is a war on everything… on the basis of the valid emails he opines that the Treasurer has mislead the house.

  59. I think the Opposition know they have over-exposed themselves. They are trying to claim the debate was always about the Treasurer and only the Treasurer.

    They are not even trying to defend Turnbull… an effective (if unethical) method of killing the subject, by not even responding to it. Which will/would work if the media cooperate.

  60. Did Swan trash his office???

    Apparently, though I never heard of it. It is the clear implication of Abbott that he did so.

  61. Breaking News

    OzCar email ‘found’
    http://www.smh.com.au/national/ozcar-email-found-20090622-ct9i.html
    An email at the centre of the OzCar affair has reportedly been found inside the Treasury’s computer system and appears to have been concocted inside the Treasury Department.

    The email in question has been found in Treasury’s system by police and was fraudulent, the ABC reported.

    Federal police had executed a search warrant at the house of Treasury official Godwin Grech and were now interviewing Mr Grech about the email, it said.

    The AFP would not confirm whether they have searched the Canberra home of Mr Grech.

  62. B. Tolputt,

    Or it might be more than five. How many, exactly, is a handful? And why, when he was so specific about numbers of all other categories of emails, did Mr swan choose the ‘number’ a handful when referring to the Grant emails? Deliberately vague, perhaps?

  63. Tony,

    That hardly proves special treatment, in fact I’d think it would pretty effectively rebut it.

  64. How so, Dave?

  65. I notice Abbott is the only who respects the speaker by looking at him/her. I’ve always thought it very rude the way Rudd and others turn their backs on the speaker.

  66. If Grech was the one who sent the email from Treasury to his home email, then that might explain why he looked so tortured* last week. He knew the source of the “email” story and he knew that he could not just say it was made up – and maybe his boss was trying to protect him.

    And what about the possibility that Charlton did send the email – just that he sent it from the Treasury network?

    * torture not in the “enhanced interrorgation” style

  67. I think Abbott’s speaking very well.

  68. So exactly nothing has happened? bar a whole lot of speculation.

    I think that those with a little firsthand insight into the public service (there are apparently a couple around here) have been fairly close to the mark with their observations throughout this sideshow; almost everybody else is just trying to decipher ideological patterns in the entrails.

  69. Abbott stuffed it by bringing up the email.

  70. Or it might be more than five. How many, exactly, is a handful? And why, when he was so specific about numbers of all other categories of emails, did Mr swan choose the ‘number’ a handful when referring to the Grant emails? Deliberately vague, perhaps?

    Possibly, but I recall that you were after facts not innuendo & opinion? Not an hour ago 🙂

  71. Abbott done well!

  72. Abbott ended badly. Had he left the email alone – it would have been pretty damn strong.

  73. Because he recieved numerous emails from Grech (including copies faxed to his home) in relation to other car yards. From what I have read, the Treasurer’s office was only making representations to Treasury on hehalf of maybe 6-10 car yards. Even if Swan received oneor even two more emails re the Grant car yard than other single dealer, that hardly constitues special treatment.

    BTW, I thought the 130 emails related to only a couple of other car yards when comparred to the 17 or so in relation to Grant’s.

  74. LMFAO – Like going in to bat thinking you were facing Brett Lee and instead you find you’re facing John Howard.

  75. B.Tolputt,

    Possibly, but I recall that you were after facts not innuendo & opinion? Not an hour ago

    In support of serious allegations. Please quote me in context if you wish to use my own words against me.

  76. All the opposition benches are empty! Deduct their pay.

  77. Daphon..Abbott called Bernie Banton’s presentation on behalf of asbestosis sufferer ‘a stunt’..I don’t much care whether his other manners include looking to the Speaker.

    Normal is that you pay respects to the Speaker/the Mayor/Shire President and then you address the house, one’s fellow elected persons plus the gallery.

    Can you imagine if a person just addressed the Speaker and ignored the house and the gallery. As above, protocol is that one acknowledges the Speaker but one addresses the house.

  78. LOL D55…. what a great analogy. Did the ball actually make it the whole 22 yds?

  79. 1984…….shit 25 years ago!! Both sides have the gloves off!!!

  80. Dave, I said I was taking notes. 😉

    20 emails related to car dealers. “Only a handful” related to John Grant.

  81. The government benches ain’t that full either.

    Quick Blogocrats, lets get organised and take over Parliament!

    I bags Infrastructure!

  82. Thanks, Min.

  83. I agree Min.

    After questioning Bernie Banton’s intentions as “not being pure of heart” Tony Abbott has no credibility to lecture anyone about “integrity”.

    The fu*kin’ sanctimonious, smarmy, mealy-mouthed C**T!

  84. Albanese is going for the jugular…

  85. I bags the PM’s wine collection…

  86. Geez, Reb, you don’t like Abbott, do you? 😉

  87. Can I have foreign affairs?

  88. Reb……back to topic please…

  89. Did Howard leave anything in the cellars?

  90. Albanese is quoting Helen McCabe Sky News.

    Re: reb, on June 22nd, 2009 at 12:52 pm Said:
    Min,

    That’s an incredible admission..

  91. Alcopops tax passed!

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25670319-12377,00.html

    Up all alcohol taxes by 50% to get serious to stop binging!

  92. joni – It was Albo’s comment. I was laughing so hard I almost missed his Chk Chk Boom line (ie, the Opposition had no such moment).

    Albo performing brilliantly.

  93. Dave55, if that’s right, Turnbull is in gaol.

  94. James,

    He will successfully argue that it was done without his knowledge – if the story is right that is.

  95. I’m now starting to ogle Kate Ellis rather than listen…. I’d better do some work:)

  96. Dave, if it has come from his office, he is a goner in a big way. There will be no denying fraud and no staff member will cop it in the neck for him.

  97. “Up all alcohol taxes by 50% to get serious to stop binging”

    Nu-uh! binging is my prerogative.

  98. What Toilethound said.

  99. Julie “Waffles” Bishop …

  100. In support of serious allegations. Please quote me in context if you wish to use my own words against me.

    And misleading parliament is not serious? Come on, Tony, we’re not that dumb…

    And on it possibly coming from Turnbull’s office – damn, I almost wish he was that stupid. The Coalition would never live that down!

  101. I can just see, Tip Custard, giggling in the cupboard …

  102. Julie Bishop (using Jesus analogies) OMG..the PM received year after year after year..the use of a..wait for it..a ute.

    Me thinks that the Opposition are in deep poo because stage next is what ‘special considerations’ their friends and family, their electorates have ever received over and above what they deserved. For example, might a friend of a certain politician have received some sort of priority re a softball oval..jumped the queue just because one has a friend who was a cousin of a politician.

    And let’s not even pretend to try to imagine what the National Party are thinking about this preferential treatment and that they might have to put all the papers on the table.

  103. Tolputt,

    Get serious. As you well know, I was referring to the meaning of ‘a handful’, and Swan’s use of ther term.

  104. I still reckon we could see a change of heart from Costello – he is the man to save them from all of this.

  105. Is that Bronwyn Bishop sitting behind crazy eyes?

    She looks like she’s just crawled out from the crypt..

  106. Joni,

    I reckon Costello wouldn’t want to go anywhere near the shambles that is the Liberal party with a ten foot poll..

  107. I agree, Reb, if this Turnbull thing has legs.

  108. Possibly, joni, but he better get his act together. He has until the end of the month to sort out the preselection thing. Even if he does get it in on time for that, he’ll have annoyed alot of the Liberal Party (again).

  109. Tanner’s up. Pay attention.

  110. Tanner’s THE MAN!

  111. Tanner is issuing veiled threats: “Don’t go scurrying back to your offices to delete emails. That wouldn’t be a very good idea” and “Think very carefully about your behaviour from here on in.”

  112. Sweet. A few journo’s are being pilloried. Bet Bolt is glad he’s not here.

  113. Oh, nice – Tanner is slapping down the Coalition’s investigative abilities on the subject of the faked email.

  114. Lost connection! Grr!

  115. Philip “Zombie Lord” Ruddock is playing lawyer with an objection.

  116. ooh . . .our favourite stamp collector. Makes me believe in zombies.

  117. Tanner: False email: the Opposition have some interesting questions to answer…they have NOT MOVED a censure motion (could have misheard..am doing my best).

    They therefore have some interesting questions to answer..that they should now open up their offices and emails..a we have..

    Don’t scurry back to your offices now to try to delete emails..

    And now this evidence has blown up in your face…

  118. Past Lib Gov. misdemeanor – Children Overboard etc

    Hmm . . . .someone been reading this blog? Looks like you guys ghost writ Tanners speech.

  119. I agree TB

    Tanner is THE MAN.

    Tanner for PM!

  120. Tanner reads Blogocrats – he must!

  121. Bloody connection gone again! Where’s my high speed broadband connection when I need it, Conroy?

  122. Hey let’s try it…re Tanner channeling Blogocrats.

    What about…perhaps Tanner should bring up HIH.

    Blogocrats..close eyes and concentrate..deep breaths, out with the negative energies.

  123. I knew that mayors read the blogocrats, but government ministers 😯

  124. I think if it is proven the email was faked wholly within Treasury for whatever reason, then I believe Turnbull has saved some face. Though his initial attack on Rudd was too hasty and too harsh by half there is no way he has of telling a real or fake email that was initiated from within the government network.

    It is now for Turnbull to tell any investigation how his party came to know of the email and its content.

    The good that will come out of it is that just maybe some of the baseless and trivial attacking that has been the hallmark of the opposition might dry up and debate might start on policy through informed factual criticism based on substance.

    As an aside, news has come out that the car industry is experiencing a mini boom based almost entirely on sales to the business sector because of the government’s 30% rebate. Another part of the stimulus that is doing exactly what it intended and doing it well.

  125. Whos speaking now?

  126. I never actually got to be a mare, just next up for Shire President 🙂 But on the other hand….

  127. TB a bald old bloke…

  128. ME?

  129. MIn -HIH? Tanner did. Now that’s spooky.

  130. TB:
    Tony Windsor

  131. TB

    Some baldy guy…

  132. Oh yay. It’s Tony “Lithpy” Burke… Not doing badly, just sounds terrible…

  133. Ta, Ben (I shall refrain from further – friggin connection dropped out again!

    Just dawned on me, must be all the Liquid Sunshine!

  134. Second string now. Tony Burke.
    Old Bald Bloke (OBB) had some good points. Show the e-mail else Mr Turnbull gets spanked.

  135. Old bloke has censured the Lead of the Opposition viz using a false email..

    The Opposition benches are looking even more sparse.

    Obviously noone in the Opposition is going to move a censure motion.

    Tony Burke doing an excellent job as always.

  136. The 7.30 report tonight will make for interesting viewing!

  137. Yeah, the Opposition benches are looking pretty damn sparse. Wonder if the possibility the email originated from a Turnbull staffer has them in an emergency huddle?

  138. Ben..what’s the bet that if Turnbull has the email/or if they are doubtful that as per Burke ‘it hasn’t got their fingerprints all over it’ (maybe a misquote)..that it’s getting a little late in the afternoon for Turnbull to suddenly slap the document on the table.

  139. As an aside, news has come out that the car industry is experiencing a mini boom based almost entirely on sales to the business sector because of the government’s 30% rebate. Another part of the stimulus that is doing exactly what it intended and doing it well.

    Car dealers, while happy about the increase in new car sales this month, are extremely cautious as they fear sales will collapse in the ensuing months, after future sales have been brought forward by tax benefits due to expire on June 30.

  140. Hmm . . .empty benches, sinking ship? Probably polling each other as to who will replace Malcolm.

  141. Well, it may surprise you all to know that I’ve reached a conclusion – heads will roll – but not on the government benches!

  142. Brian..did psychic readings in Byron Bay for years…

  143. Does anyone know of a merchant bank that is looking for a senior staff member? I think that someone with experience might be coming available very soon.

  144. oh

    Talculm’s back…

  145. Turnbull back on the front foot, looks like he feels safe.

    The independant bloke had it about right for mine.

  146. Did the PM accuse the opposition of forging the email?

    Had to go out for half an hour.

  147. Da plot thickens:

    FEDERAL police officers reportedly want to speak to a member of Malcolm Turnbull’s staff in connection with a faked email at the centre of the utegate mess.

    The Punch reported police are “keen to speak to an advisor inside Mr Turnbull’s office, who formerly worked at Treasury”. It later reported the advisor left Mr Turnbull’s office in recent weeks.

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25670087-5007133,00.html

  148. Watch the benches behind the speakers. Body language or lack of is interesting. Swan . . .he looks pretty comfortable.

    Malcolm is arguing sweet reason. Oxymoron in this case. Not a rabbit out of the hat.

  149. “If it emerges that anyone inside Mr Turnbull’s office was involved in the production or dissemination of the email, the Opposition Leader will become the politician with the most to lose from utegate,” The Punch reports.

    “By the end of the day he will either have sacked his staff member, or if it emerges that he, as alternative Prime Minister, knew of any scam, Mr Turnbull will be gone.”

  150. I still think it boils down to what was the originating communication that led to representations being made on Grant’s behalf.

    Turnbull looks a little silly talking about reckless accusations.

  151. The suggestion is that the email is a forgery but the opposition denies that they had any input nor have they any copies of the email.

  152. Blood in the water. Feeding frenzy.

  153. Geez it looks bad when the Opposition all file out….

  154. The difficulty with Turnbull being gone is that there is nobody to replace him..Bishop? Pyne? Who?

  155. I haven’t seen anything yet to require a resignation from anybody.

  156. Update from Punch:

    UPDATE 2.20pm: The Punch has learned that the staff member left Mr Turnbull’s office a few weeks ago. His name is Paul Lindwall and he is a former advisor to Peter Costello and also worked for Treasury. There is no suggestion that he has engaged in any wrongdoing, but the AFP want to talk to determine his involvement.

  157. You’re forgetting about Joe, Min.

    Joe would leap at the chance.

  158. who’s on now?

  159. Not so much leap reb, he is a big man – but very avunclular.

  160. Reb: It’s Chris Bowen..it’s droop given that the Opposition has done sweet BA.

    Joe Hockey? Will send an email to this effect.

  161. Meanwhile – Greg Bird gets 16 mths (8mths non parole) for hitting his GF.

    http://www.smh.com.au/leaguehq/articles/2009/06/22/1245522769014.html

  162. Bronny up!

  163. Bronny up!

    Thank god my feed is down.

    Off to do some work now.

  164. Wow, Bishop 2 to attacking position. “Swan delivers cash in bown paper bags”. We have hit rock bottom, unless we start getting into extra marital affairs. Please can we get into extra marital affairs??? Please??

  165. The AG has not taken on the Inquiry yet!

    There was no order…a full judicial inquiry is required to clean this up.

  166. Bronny says that it is the ‘tone’ of the letter. Ms Deputy Speaker..it is the tone of the letter..it is the tone of the letter…

    Did the letter not have rounded vowels?

  167. Maybe it was “the vibe” of the letter..??

  168. what’s going on now?

  169. Who will win the vote???

  170. Let’s hope she does not let her hair down.

    And is the “tone” like the one when the patient has died?

    beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

  171. Nice one reb. It was only a matter of time before “The Castle” was brought into this mess. We’re currently in division waiting to convert the motion to one of censure I think.

  172. Thanks Ben.

    Who’s going to censure who?

  173. Well at least the Libs don’t have to confront CPRS.

  174. PM is on.

  175. Well it was Labor converting a motion the Liberals started with into one of censuring the Opposition Leader for his email antics.

  176. Turnbull asking the PM if there is going to be a full judicial enquiry.

    Answer the question, PM!

  177. Odds of him answering the question?

  178. Is it just me, but as the day “wears” on, this whole situation just gets sillier and sillier ….

    …. unemployment rising, massive deficits, climate change issues, GFC, war in Afghanistan, strife in Iran etc…

    … and what does our Parliament do? Fart around like a bunch of …

    … Private School Bullies!

    Nothing changes … at least PJK was fun to watch …

  179. If there is no enquiry the mud will stick!

  180. Repeat from Sky..from Rudd: A leader of the Opposition who is swinging in the breeze..only one course of action..to tender his resignation…or a formal assurance that all emails/computer will be make fully available to scrutiny by the (federal) police.

  181. Nup no answer. Question was would he hold a judicial enquiry. Not answered.

  182. Back from work 😉

    Scaper – why should they hold a judicial inquiry?

  183. Albanese talking about vision…where’s the bucket???

  184. Thanks Min.

  185. Odds of him answering the question?

    Around the same as Turnbull stating to parliament where he first got a hold of the fraudulent email.

  186. Dave, to get to the bottom of this!

  187. I should imagine that the government were all primed to debate the ETS and now the opposition has wasted at least 2 days of debate.

  188. Who cares about the ETS…it won’t get through this time anyway.

  189. I bet all these guys in politics have tiny little willies.

  190. Ben, just making a broad point as not everyone listens to Parliament. It was a yes or no question that he didn’t answer. He should.

  191. Interesting point, Min. I wonder how much of this is doubling as a delaying tactic to allow for the ETS to be postponed.

  192. I wonder where the Murdoch Press will file this “Fake Email” fiasco ?

    Perhaps on the shelf just beneath the file full of the “Fake Pauline Hanson Photos”…………..?

    Nah………Come to think of it…………..I think it deserves to be on the same shelf as the “Hitler Diaries”

  193. The AFP and the Auditor General are already looking at this. There is no allegation of illegality by Swan or Rudd so why hold a judicial inquiry – it would just be a huge waste of money and time and probably not reveal anything that wont come out of the AGs and AFP investigation.

  194. Albanese thinks the ‘Chk Chk Boom’ line will be funny ever time he uses it. I’ve got news for him.

  195. TB Queensland, on June 22nd, 2009 at 3:21 pm Said:

    “his whole situation just gets sillier and sillier ….”

    Indeed! Judicial enquiries into rust utes. FGS.

  196. I agree James. The next guy from Labor did the same (not answering the question), and I found myself nodding in agreement to Abbott. That is not good…

  197. Three out of three, Ben.

  198. A pissing contest as to whose fax works hardest. Mr Swan’s works through the night. (There’s a GFC, doncha know?)

  199. Tony,

    Agree – it got old fast. Poor bugger probably had his answer scripted before he gave his speech earlier today.

  200. ames of North Melbourne, on June 22nd, 2009 at 12:56 pm Said:

    “Gone so far…….

    Swan, Turnbull………..

    Who’s next?”

    How so, Swan, James? None of the activity on the Grant deal was at his behest. Neither his nor Rudd’s offices generated the email at the bottom of this fiasco. So Swan didn’t mislead parliament in any way shape or form.

    Grech, the (imo) unsuspecting patsy thought it had come from the boss, and acted accordingly.

    Meanwhile, Trunchbull’soffice is being investigated as a possible source. It doesn’t get much better than this folks!!

  201. Dave, then lets not have an enquiry then so we can all speculate for years.

  202. Is it just me or does that treasury official Godwin Grech look exactly like the vision I’ve alway had of our own “Miglo”

  203. Swan’s fax uses too much electricty and paper and he’s being hypocritical with his pro-AGW stance.

  204. Agreed again, James. Both parties (Labor & Coalition) are terrible at this. Question Time is a joke that shames me as a person that advocates democracy.

    Though, Abbott’s “reluctance” every time he objects is tiring too.

  205. Do you think the Speaker is listening “carefully”?

  206. Scaper said:

    “then so we can all speculate for years.”

    ‘We”. Let’s keep it in singular.

  207. Tanner reckons advice is a crude threat…unbelievable!

  208. scaper …
    Three letters for you – AWB. That certainly got to the bottom of that debacle didn’t it!

  209. Nature 5,

    You’re forgetting that Scaper is also the Mayor, which is practically royalty in anyone’s terms, hence the use of “the royal we”.

  210. Scaper, one in a position of power (such as leader of the Opposition) can easily couch threats as advice. I can see it as such.

    Hockey is losing it.

  211. Reb, my error. I forgot about the elevated status.

    Personally, I think it will come down to which side has the numbers. Now who will that be?

  212. Well, people here have been speculating for years what the last government did or didn’t do!

    But I suppose it is different now because your exalted team is in.

  213. reb,

    I’m beginning to think that the title on this post is getting a bit dated. Any puns around Turnbull going?

  214. Just put up a poll on Utegate.

    And D55 – I have been trying to think of a new thread name… thinking of Turnbullsh!tgate at this stage

  215. James having been a speaker/chairperson for the (lowly) East Riding, we chairs always listen carefully…might think that it’s a whole heap of twaddle, but we always listen carefully.

    A (trivial) aside. I was the first female ‘chair’…no sorry I am not ‘a chair’. After a great deal of toing and froing I ended up at my suggestion with the title of Madam Chairman…traadaaa. But umm, a Madam..umm.. Forget it, it suits me…

  216. Dave55…

    How about …”Stupid, desperate Liberals (& others) sink to new, previously unimaginable low”?

  217. What about:

    “How do they ever get any legislation passed in that place?”

  218. *IMMATURE SLEDGE ALERT*

    What is with Nicola Roxon’s hair?

  219. Now Roxon is up crowing about the alcopop tax and a win to fight binge drinking.

    Let us see the reduction in alcohol abuse in a year then.

  220. Alcohol abuse is here to stay. No government has a realistic chance of stopping such a juggernaut.

    Now, seeing as how she mourns a lengthening shadow & I’m on a day off I think I might just have to engage in a little alcohol abuse directly.

  221. Yum.

  222. The only dumb think about the alcopop tax is the way Labor tried to badge it as a health initiave first and formost. It should have been pitched as addressing a tax anomaly that also had beneficial health impacts.

    The Libs passed the tax because there was blatent hypocrisy in their position over the smoking tax increase. Maybe Labor will put that tax up as well as making the private health care changes. Will help pay ff the debt quicker and that can only be a good thing.

  223. Roxon had a good point concerning the alcohol being consumed.

    How does she count the blackmarket booze that has sprung up in the last two years?

    A bottle of spirits is going for ten bucks up here and it is bottled and sealed and tastes the same as the real stuff.

  224. think = thing – D’oh

  225. Actually, I don’t know why I bother – that post was full of spelling errors and typos 😳

  226. It’s very easy to get caught up in the ‘excitement’ of all this. I have lost respect for many members of the Labor Party who dishonestly have stood at the dispatch box claiming that Turnbull’s argument against both Rudd and Swan are solely based upon the alleged fake email proporting to be from Rudd’s office to the Treasury.

    That is plainly false and everyone in parliament knows that. It’s true that the alleged fake email is the main argument against Rudd. However, Swan is under the microscope for other emails and correspondences that are confirmed to be genuine and are on the public record. He has a case to answer.

    Turnbull made a mistake when he called for Rudd’s resignation on Friday. However, it has been perfectly reasonable for the opposition to ask questions of Mr Rudd and Mr Swan on these matters.

  227. So, who cares if you made a few blues, the message is the importance!

  228. If this lot worked for any company I’ve known they’d all be terminated!

    No wonder no-one wants Wonder Custard ..!

  229. If this lot was managing my business like the economy they would be terminated!

  230. Turnbull has only himself to blame for the spin the Labor Party are putting on the email. He over-stretched in trying to implicate Rudd with the fraudulent evidence. He basically handed them Swan’s salvation on a silver platter. As such the media are going to eat up anything to do with the email (with the rumours of Turnbull’s office being involved) as it is more sensational than the initial probes into “mates helping out mates”.

    This doesn’t excuse the Labor Party for it’s spin (it’s getting as bad as the last government in that regard); but it was a stupid move politically given the room it gives Swan & Rudd to move around in.

  231. ames of North Melbourne, on June 22nd, 2009 at 1:44 pm Said:

    “Can I have foreign affairs?”

    No you bloody well can’t!. You get domestic affairs with Ms La Bonk and her five sisters as your staff!!

    And you can’t have a Kate Ellis, either!! Jeez.

    joni, on June 22nd, 2009 at 2:42 pm Said:

    “Does anyone know of a merchant bank that is looking for a senior staff member? I think that someone with experience might be coming available very soon.”

    Which branch of staff, joni? Methinks cleaning staff might be the highest office the applicant may aspire to. Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke, except maybe the mad monk and Chrissie Pyne.

    scaper, James BT, the cops and AG are all over it at the moment, so judicial enquiries seem a bit premature until they finish what they’re doing-it may not be worth it.

    Trunchbull’s lifeless corpse could well be swinging in the breeze or he could be checking supplies in the cleaner’s cupboard at the merchant bank nearest you, at the end of this. Bwwaaahahahaha!!!!!!!

  232. Al, on June 22nd, 2009 at 4:08 pm

    ..and the case against Swan is?

  233. Re Lolly alcopops..just take a tour of Schoolies Week Gold Coast, Byron Bay and Torquay and what are all the young girls drinking? No wonder the spirits industry have fought tooth and nail to not have the price put up on their cheap lolly drinks. Not that the advertisements were aimed at teenage/pre teen girls or anything like that…just a coincidence..

  234. A member of the opposition wrote to the Treasurer concerning a constituent who owned a car yard who was having trouble securing finance.

    There was no action but the Treasurer responded by “we’ll look into it?”

  235. It’s OK Min, that’s all about to stop, thanks to Ms Roxon (and what a sterling job she did saving us all from that deadly swine flu); they might as well call off schoolies week as well

  236. they might as well call off schoolies week as well

    Which should have the equivalent effect as calling off the end of year pranks by 12th Grade students at my high school. That is, no effect whatsoever.

    Like the RIAA/MPAA are discovering about copyright protection – people only obey laws they believe in… If everyone is breaking the law, the police can’t really enforce it.

  237. jane, on June 22nd, 2009 at 4:14 pm Said:

    “No you bloody well can’t!. You get domestic affairs with Ms La Bonk and her five sisters as your staff!!

    And you can’t have a Kate Ellis, either!! Jeez.”

    You mean these girls, well, ok, I guess……

    As to the judicial inquiry, that was a pretty simple question to answer, now wasn’t it?

  238. “..and the case against Swan is?”

    I hope you’re joking. The case against Mr Swan is that he gave John Grant favourable treatment because he was a friend of the Prime Minister, and has subsequently lied to the parliament. There is evidence on the public record that Mr Swan has taken a substantial interest in John Grant’s financial affairs. The question is, did Mr Swan treat other car dealers with such attention or did Mr Grant receive preferential treatment from the Treasurer? There is a case to answer there.

  239. As to the judicial inquiry, that was a pretty simple question to answer, now wasn’t it?

    Sure it was. And I think it should have been. However Labor backed away from the “When did you stop beating your wife?” element of the question.

    The Coalition were hoping that a refusal would imply Labor had nothing to hide. Agreeing to one would waste tax-payers money until such time as it is shown one is required. All things considered, the only thing really requiring investigation in all this is the fraudulent email. The evidence Swan that he actually helped the guy more than other contituents is pretty weak at best, and as such the whole misleading of parliament rests on the definition of “special” – a pretty lame thing to required a judicial investigation.

    Personally, I think they would have come out looking stronger having just said “No. We are already investigating the fraudulent email you have been peddling last week. We don’t want to waste tax-payers money on chasing more of your baseless tales of corruption” or similar

  240. It’s on again, censure motion from the Opposition.

  241. The above is meant to read

    Sure it was. And I think it should have been answered

    Apologies

  242. Tony..I think that Ms Roxon has done/is doing a good job..she comes over as being a sincere person as compared to being just a politician. To me she is on the Petro Georgiou standard..does ones job and with sincerity.

  243. Hockey is up in relation to the questions asked of the Treasurer…no answer!

    Why can’t the Treasurer answer these simple questions?

    What’s the fucking use of question time if there is no answers…pathetic!

  244. Al, on June 22nd, 2009 at 4:31 pm Said:

    case against Mr Swan is that he gave John Grant favourable treatment

    favourable treatment ? Please explain? Favourable treatment re the ‘process’? Favourable treatment re some ‘outcomes’?

  245. Agreed Scaper, Question Time is a farce. They ought to change the standing orders to require the ministers to directly answer the questions put to them.

  246. Nature5, it is favourable treatment as to the process.

  247. *laugh* Damn, I really think that Labor read this blog. They just mentioned that Costello should reconsider his retirement before the end of the month!

  248. You may be right, Min, but Ms Roxon lost me the first time I ever heard her speak. It was before the election and she was debating Tony Abbott, at the Press Club, from memory. She was every bit as smart-arsey as Mr Abbott. I don’t like her.

  249. Should Belinda Neal be on screen and can anyone hear a child in the background?

  250. James, Neal has had anger management treatment for her little transgression…all is forgiven.

  251. Nature 5, I’m sure you’re completely aware that the allegations are about Mr Grant’s case receiving special attention from the Treasurer above and beyond any other car dealers, and subsequently that the Treasurer misled the parliament on the matter.

  252. I’ve intensely disliked Roxon since this:

    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/08/04/1091557920696.html

  253. Oh, and the several emails I sent to her were deleted without being opened.

    (I don’t remember how I know this although I actually received return emails (probably used the MS Outlook ‘request a read receipt’ option.))

  254. (Actually, that can’t have been the first time I heard her, but it’s the one time that sticks in my mind.)

  255. I hated Abbott before you hated Roxon, nya-nya-nya-nyah…..

  256. Search Warrant..the email is a fake. Not yet known who concocted the email.

    Double stated, the email is a fake.

  257. Was it Roxon or the PM that instructed Australians to wash their hands when this swine flu outbreak happened?

    I missed her negativity on gay marriage all those years ago.

  258. The above from Sky..

  259. And so where to for Turnbull..now that it has been verified that the email is a fake.

    I kept getting iffy vibes from Turnbull when he started doing a backflip with pike saying that he didn’t actually, not actuuually have a copy of the email, but that a journalist had read it to him…

  260. Re swine flu..yes this is an excellent recommendation given that 60% of Australian males do not wash their hands after going to the toilet.

  261. AI

    … but you short, fat, old blokes, with red hair and odd colored eyes, always accuse without any real evidence …

    … easy isn’t it? Go on deny it …

  262. Min, it will come down to the origin of the email, but I’ve gotta say, I reckon Turnbull’s stuffed. He probably won’t collect Swan’s scalp now, although he should, and the attention will be on him relying on an unverified document at best. That is just breathtakingly stupid. Again, only going on what I can gather, but I can’t imagine it would be that hard to verify the authenticity of an email.

  263. Yes, Min! … and after washing my hands, I have to open the bloody door, using the same door handle as the buggers who don’t! (Newer buildings/shopping centres have no door to toilets …

  264. James, I hope you’ve been keeping up with my posts?

    Your about three hours behind … 😉

  265. Is the government’s responsibility to instruct us on personal hygiene, not to drink too much or smoke?

    I propose that they concentrate on running the country and get out of our lives, the fascists!

  266. Well, I think the interesting thing is that Turnbull cannot give up the source of the email in question. He knows now that the email is a fake, therefore there must be a big downside to him acknowledging the true source of his information given the trouble it’s causing.

    The interesting detail will be if it is because a journalist gave it to him that he cannot afford to get offside (say along the lines of outing Glen Milne or Malcolm Farr) or because he got it from someone in the Liberal establishment and outing them damages the whole party.

    His own recklessness brought this on, so I have no pity for him. I wouldn’t want to swap places with him though (unless we could also swap bank balances…)

    And to think, they actually had enough to target Swan with if they didn’t overreach….

  267. TB,

    I have no idea what you’re talking about. I am talking about facts on the public record that Wayne Swan and his office had several correspondences with John Grant and the possible implications of that.

  268. James..I think that if the false email can be traced to Turnbull’s office then he is bigger and deeper poo than Swan. One thing is giving a nudge to a car dealer (who didn’t receive anything anyway) compared with the Leader of the Opposition deliberately using a forged email to call for the resignation of a prime minister.

    All that Turnbull can do is to insist that he thought that the document was genuine and didn’t know that it was a forgery.

  269. TB..one of the worst things re spread of viruses is people not washing their hands. This is such a simple thing but something that people don’t do.

    It’s the same as people not scouring one’s chopping board after cutting up chicken and using the same chopping board to cut up vegetables. Don’t do it!

  270. All that Turnbull can do is to insist that he thought that the document was genuine and didn’t know that it was a forgery.

    That might save him from legal proceedings, but it won’t bolster him any in terms of keeping Liberal leadership. Turnbull’s credibility is shot to hell and it is only the speed of his departure left to determine. If the email comes from his office or one of his staff (current or otherwise) – the man only needs time to write a resignation speech. If it turns out that the email was from someone outside his immediate realm of control, he can probably cling to leadership until the election but would have no chance of winning it.

  271. Ben..I’ve been to and fro this arvo..do you have an update?

  272. AI

    Swan and Treasury officials had thousands of communicatioons verbal and written with many dealers…

    … the general public will first ask, “…so, how did this, John Grant, gain from the Treasurer’s (or anybody else’s) intervention/assistance..?”

    …answer, “…well they didn’t…” nor did many other dealers …

    … GP … “…so what’s all this BS …?”

    … the general public will then wake up to the fact that the whole Utegate issue was a waste – of time, money and other government resources …

    … as others have said the next polls will be interesting …

    As for my last post – you didn’t deny my description of you – therefore it must be true – now do you see what Turncoat & Co have done?

    AI – I spent many years in the corporate sector – Turncoat etc are a bunch of amateurs …

  273. Federal Police have confirmed that the email is a fake. Sky News.

  274. The email is a fake?

    Well the Liberals have always accused Kevin Rudd of being a phoney.

    Now they’ve got the evidence to prove it.

    LOL!

  275. scaper…, on June 22nd, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    scaper, you were much more genteel and level headed when you were on the pi$$ … didn’t use foul language in your posts either … “clink” to all!

    (nice Cockatoo Ridge Brut Cuvee NV, tonight)

  276. Easy, TB, I said as early as Friday that if the email’s a fake, then Turnbull should resign. And I said this morning that if Turnbull had any involvement in a forgery, then he should do some gaol time.

    It seems some people only wish to read half of what I write. That shouldn’t save Swan, but it will.

  277. (nice Cockatoo Ridge Brut Cuvee NV, tonight)

    *Gags*

    Wow, splashing out TB? How much did that cost? $11.99??

  278. Sorry Min. The best updates are definitely from outside the parliament. We now know the email is a fake, we have suspicions it is from an ex-Turnbull staffer (but nothing definite), and all we have got from the waste of time/money that the parliament proceedings have been all day is that Turnbull is as desperate as humanly possible to remove the email from the debate and the public discussion.

    In other words, follow the AFP investigation and you’ll get more details than will ever come out in parliament. The Coalition want Swan to be the only topic discussed, but Labor are keeping it on the email. They’re both doing a bad job at looking good – so the most sensational argument is what’s going to play in the media. That would be the fraudulent email.

  279. TB, you said a while back that it is every man for himself, why is the government in the business of seeking finance for car dealers in the first place?

    Why is the government wanting to assist developers?

    Why is the government giving bank guarantees to shield the institutions that are still making exorbitant profits?

    The PM wrote a trashy essay condemning capitalism and assists the worst offenders is somewhat hypocritical in my opinion.

  280. Y’know when I reflect on today’s proceedings I can’t help thinking – *what a wasteful day*, not only for Parliament – but personally…

    … I’ve been interested in politics and been around long enough now to have a pretty good idea of how it would all end …

    So why get sucked in – again? Amazin’ …

  281. @James:
    I don’t think there is enough to kick Swan out regardless of the fake email, but it could have been the jab before the punch (like how the Fitzgibbon affair played out).

    Now the email is going to wipe clean any attempts of continuing “Utegate” as Labor can spin it as nothing more than an attempt to continue smearing Swan. Relying on the fake email to tie Rudd into the issue has handed control of the situation to Labor…

    And I am a “leftie”!!!!

  282. Tol.. just in on Sky, the Federal Police have that the email is a fake…also at:

    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/828491/afp-finds-fake-email-in-ozcar-affair

    Police have uncovered what appears to be a fake email at the centre of the ute-gate affair.

  283. Sky: the fake email was concocted inside Treasury.

  284. TB,

    I am just interested in focusing on the facts as we know them. If Swan did give Mr Grant prefential treatment due to his relationship with the Prime Minister, I believe that is something that the public should be aware of, particularly given that he stated in parliament that he treated Mr Grant just like everyone else. I accept that the absence of government assistance in the final outcome makes the case against Mr Swan less serious.

    I object to facts being misrepresented, as has been done by members of both the Government and the opposition, and some members of the media.

  285. It’s lose, lose for Swan.
    I’m not sure which is worse, giving favourable treatment to someone, or trying to give favourable treatment to someone who ends up with zilch.
    Who is there to turn to for help these days?

  286. “If Swan did give Mr Grant prefential treatment due to his relationship with the Prime Minister”.

    And importantly there is some factual evidence which suggests that may be the case. It is not some wild baseless allegation and it has nothing to do with the alleged fake email.

  287. So one politician down plays the lobbying they did to support a mate of the PM.

    Another politician exaggerated the level of evidence against the PM.

    One is the Treasurer and can actually make decisions.

    Why on earth is so much of this discussion about Turnbull? He has no policy authority, in case the partisan had not noticed!

  288. And there is factual evidence, Al, that preferential treatment (if it was actually preferential) was given to other’s too.

    But could the source of Gretch’s “not a normal constituent” comment about Grant all come down to the fake email – in which case the “preferential treatment” all goes out the door.

    (BTW – I still think Swan will go)

  289. I object to facts being misrepresented, as has been done by members of both the Government and the opposition, and some members of the media

    AI, as we all do! But there is no “evidence” just documents – big difference …

    … and while I am a lifetime ALP voter (how do you vote BTW?) …

    … I will hold all parliamentarians to account no matter where they are from – politicians are OUR servants not ‘tother way ’round!

    ++++++++++++++++++++++
    Min, interesting that the email was concocted in Treasury – against the Treasurer and the Defence Minister was “whiteanted” from within his department (notwithstanding he was a nice bloke but a DH!)

    I recall that Kevin Rudd chose to retain many of the senior PS staff appointed by JH et al – that naieve decision (KR is ex PS) is now coming home to roost…

    … look forward to a PS purge very soon …

    … lets hope our mate, Migs isn’t caught up in it !

  290. Why on earth is so much of this discussion about Turnbull? He has no policy authority, in case the partisan had not noticed!

    Because he called for the resignation of the Prime Minister and gave some “advice” to one of the PM’s staff that all but called the guy a liar based on a fraudulent email.

    Turnbull is meant to be the alternative Prime Minister. At least a majority of the people (left & right) on this blog believe that making such direct accusations without the backing of facts makes him not worthy of the position.

  291. Meanwhile over in the Senate, they’ve been indulging in mass debating 🙄
    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25672211-29277,00.html

    Senate spends day debating what to debate

  292. Well said Ben!

  293. Doesn’t the preferential treatment hinge on the fake email asking the treasurer to give Mr Grant preferential treatment?

    As I recall out of this whole sorry business, Godwin Grech received the email and assumed that he was supposed to give Mr Grant preferential treatment because it purported to come from PMO or Swan or the Dalai Lama or someone. Mr Grech acted on his assumptions and fired off a goodly sum of emails and faxes to Swan.

    So please explain how this implicates Swan in either misleading parliament or seeking favourable treatment for Mr Grant, being as wot he neither authored nor went out of his way to provide the alleged special treatment requested in an email he never received?

  294. Now if we were to find that the email came from Swan – then there would not be a Swan dive – it would be a Swan beheading.

  295. No Jane, not at all. The “email” only really relates to Rudd. The case against Swan is a much stronger one with many emails indicative of “preferential treatment”.

  296. Joni, if there is and there is nothing untowards there, then that would be welcolme. I haven’t personally seen or heard such evidence that suggests than any treatment to other car dealers rivaled the treatment that was afforded to Mr Grant. That is not to say that your claim is not true. I think the more facts that the public receive on this matter the better.

  297. Al,

    See this comment from earlier.

  298. The PM wrote a trashy essay condemning capitalism and assists the worst offenders is somewhat hypocritical in my opinion.

    The PM lervs social capitalism and condemns neoLIBERALism. 😉

  299. So a minister, the most senior economic minister in government, apparently misleads parliament, and most people here are focussed on the behaviour of the opposition leader?

    Sensational sense of priority.

    Partisan and playing a low level political game is what I’d call most of the commentary.

  300. joni, on June 22nd, 2009 at 6:06 pm Said:

    BTW – I still think Swan will go

    While one can never be sure, it seems to me his position is enhanced, at least in the short term. Rudd really went in to bat for Swan and in a sense they now need each other for the foreseeable future.

    TB Queensland, on June 22nd, 2009 at 6:07 pm Said:

    look forward to a PS purge very soon …

    Unlikely. given his experiences in QLD, where his ‘purging’ earned him the name of Dr Death. I suspect that this time he will rely on Terry Moran to put the weights on all the CEOs and held them ‘accountable’ for the behaviour of their underlings. Much more subtle and effective and besides the contracts of many SES Officers employed under Howard will soon be up for renewal.

  301. bacchus, on June 22nd, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    They may call it “debating” but my early carrer was in auto workshops and I know what they would call it … it would end in – ing – and begin with W!!!!

    Do we pay these turkeys?

  302. Legion, on June 22nd, 2009 at 6:22 pm Said:

    I think the distinction you make is far too complex for the intended recipient.

    Tom of Melbourne, on June 22nd, 2009 at 6:22 pm Said

    most senior economic minister in government, apparently misleads parliament

    ‘Apparently misleads’ – and that Tom is the issue that remains unproven.

    Is the whole thing a gigantic beat-up? Yes!

  303. the contracts of many SES Officers employed under Howard will soon be up for renewal

    What a luverly way to purge!

    Obviously you feel comfortable, N5 …

    I wonder about, AI, he/she is a cool, calm and collected character – very similar to you but with a slight bent right – funny that, hey?

  304. Tom of Melbourne, on June 22nd, 2009 at 6:22 pm

    I think you’re just jealous that you don’t have friends who loan you their ute.

  305. Joni, just asking, is there anywhere where these facts are officially stated?

  306. Beat up or otherwise, one is a government minister with actual authority.

    The other has no authority.

    One has a sworn duty, the other is just elected within a party room.

    The only explanation for the silly focus on Turnbull is that it is a convenient and partisan diversion from Swan.

    He is incompetent, always was and there are now genuine questions about his integrity.

    This seems a better issue for public commentary than whether an opposition leader “over stepped”!!

    This focus shows more interest in stupid political games than in the quality of the people that are actually supposed to be running the government.

  307. Al, on June 22nd, 2009 at 6:33 pm Said:

    is there anywhere where these facts are officially stated?

    Normally one would find relevent ‘facts in the MSM, but the publication of same would deflate this BS ‘bubble’. Maybe to-morrow, Possum or others will provide some hard data.

  308. Al

    Hansard – people earlier were just telling us what was happening on the floor of parliament.

  309. Why was I not surprised when I saw Godwin Grech’s home? (The first pic that comes up.)

    http://www.smh.com.au/interactive/2009/national/utegate/index.html

  310. Tom of Melbourne, on June 22nd, 2009 at 6:36 pm

    I agree, Tom. If only it were possible to Malcolm go away so the focus was just on Swan. Any ideas on how to make Malcolm go away?

  311. (If only it were possible to make* Malcolm go away…)

  312. Tom of Melbourne, on June 22nd, 2009 at 6:36 pm Said:

    one is a government minister with actual authority.

    The other has no authority

    Tom this is not about ‘authority’, rather it is about ‘political power’ and to suggest that Turnbull has no political power is laughable. as for:

    This focus shows more interest in stupid political games than in the quality of the people that are actually supposed to be running the government.

    focus shows more interest in stupid political games . Can’t disagree with that. In fact it supports my point completely. This debate IS about politics, whether it OUGHT to be about authority is another matter entirely.

    As for Swan’s competence – you like others in the past have underestimated his abilities, and paid the price.

  313. 45 minutes to 7:30 Report.

  314. Daphon, on June 22nd, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    It’s not the kind of home where I’d expect to find a rusty ute in the drive; but, the suits almost coordinate. I must admit, too, that the reports of Godwin’s nocturnal gardening adventures make more sense, also.

  315. I thought Daphon was referring to the Valletta ‘style’ evident in Mr Grech’s residence. Maltese Falcon, anyone?

  316. Really enjoyed your comments on this distraction over the last few days Legion.

  317. Agree, Toilethound. Legion has evidently been on Lewis-watch for some time now.

  318. So a minister, the most senior economic minister in government, apparently misleads parliament, and most people here are focussed on the behaviour of the opposition leader?

    Actually, no. From what I can read, most here at least believe that the evidence against Swan would have been enough to tarnish him significantly, if not get rid of him.

    The issue that is tragically amusing is that Malcolm has screwed everything up by getting too greedy. Had he kept his focus on Swan – he’d be winning this engagement. Becuase he decided to over-reach, he has given Labor the exact spin they need to make the issue not only ineffective against Swan but damaging for the Coalition (assuming Turnbull is the best ot lead them to election victory).

    You might be right that the “lefties” would be standing up for Swan without foundation had Turnbull not stuffed up. Unfortunately, the big story now is the alternative Prime Minister, the man best setup to affect the legislative agenda aside from Rudd has tarnished his reputation beyond repair. How can he engage the Government now with valid issues of corruption when he has no credibility left?

  319. As for Swan’s competence – you like others in the past have underestimated his abilities, and paid the price.

    Just saw/read this – YES having met/talked to Wayne Swan over the years, I agree, absolutely, N5, I confess to being concerned at his being “thrust” into the role Treasurer – because he is such a “genuine” politician – however, he has proved that his honesty (his “weakness”) is also his *strength* …

    … after today he can only become more professional and stronger …

  320. An observation. The story blew up on Friday. I would have thought the Feds. would have been on to these computer records over the weekend. I think the main facts would have already been known prior to today.

    Ooops – Report is on.

  321. For all the defenders of Swan, perhaps post a copy of oath of office, and then explain exactly the oath of office sworn by Turnbull.

    Notice any difference? I hope so.

    For all those here that were sick of the previous government engaging in political double dealing, sick of double talk to get ministers off the hook, sick of the same old political games, the double standards are simply breath taking!

    So many now decline to take this government to task, so many simply wanting to fall into line with the latest press release issued by the government public relations advisors.

    So much for integrity in government.

    Odd the way the standards expected of government change, depending on who’s in government.

  322. N5, in no way did I suggest that Turnbull is without political power.

    Role vested authority is something entirely different, and that is what Swan has plenty of, and Turnbull very little of.

    Swan has statutory responsibility, and needs to be held to account. Turnbull stuffed up politically, and needs to cop the political outcome of that.

    To equate opposition responsibility as equivalent to government is strange. I’m quite surprised that some seem to overlook the difference here.

  323. 7.30 Report..Turnbull has stated concocted at least 10 times and is blaming Steve Lewis for any email.

  324. Turnbull is suggesting that Treasury officials would be the ones responsible for a forgery. That’s going to go over like a lead balloon..

  325. Turnbull reading from notes – he is rattled.

  326. Hmm . . .dead man walking?

  327. To equate opposition responsibility as equivalent to government is strange. I’m quite surprised that some seem to overlook the difference here.

    I don’t think we are. However, the “proof” against Swan is not damning enough to kick him out of office. The dealership received no favours and Swan was getting emails about several car dealerships under similar financing considerations.

    It looks like there might have been special attention, but there is no proof of it. One of the good things about our country is that we don’t sack or jail people on a “might have” or “probably did”.

    I think that is the difference here. Swan might have used his office to help out a mate, but Turnbull did make a fool out of himself and destroy his credibility.

  328. Turnbull: “We are not responsible for emails concocted in the Treasury; that’s Mr Swan’s responsibility.”

  329. I wonder if Turnbull will survive all this?

  330. Sorry missed the last bit. 7.30 Report ..

    ..it was the most quoteable quote, and so just in part…Turnbull: We are not responsible for emails that are conconted by treasury…

  331. Scaper – dunno about his survival. He looked knackered at the end. Beaten? Hmm . . . .wait and see.

  332. Really? All I heard was “we are not responsible”…thought it would make a great electioneering slogan. 😉

  333. “One of the good things about our country is that we don’t sack or jail people on a “might have” or “probably did”.”

    You’ve once again proved you need to brush up on some facts, including the difference between civil and criminal standards. The examples you’ve provided require entirely different standards of evidence and proof.

    Wrong yet again.

  334. I wonder if Turnbull will survive all this?

    I don’t think so… at least, not as an effective Opposition Leader. If he’s lucky (and there are no contenders for the crown), he’ll make it to the election – but it’ll end there. His credibility is in tatters over this, and that will affect the public perception of any arguments he makes against the Government.

    His grasping at others to blame for the email he used as a foundation to attack the Prime Minister are not likely to work. After all, where would the buck stop if he becomes the Prime Minister? People tend to expect it to end with him, so his blaming others for his falling for a forgery read out over the phone of all things makes him seem very weak.

  335. Turnbull’s behavior defies logic, one would like to believe that being in the legal profession he would check the facts before making his case.

  336. Ben, Dr Haneef may disagree with you , however, re Lateline

    Rudd – 8 (out of 10)

    Turncoat (I’m sorry but as with every reality show someone has to go home …)

    ————————————————-

    I do have an apology to make to Malcolm Turnbull.

    As I have said on many occasions I blame Turnbull for the result of our Republican Referendum, because I believe he sold out to John Howard (I have no evidence nor resources to prove my supposition)…

    … however, after watching his performance tonight on Lateline and after last week in Parliament, I may be wrong …

    … in fact I know believe, Malcolm Turnbull, is just another dumb, rich, bastard, who fell into money because of his Robber Baron contacts and has proven that most of us just don’t move in the “right circles” – and if it makes you feel any better that also includes Rudd & Co …

  337. Tom of Melbourne,

    So many now decline to take this government to task, so many simply wanting to fall into line with the latest press release issued by the government public relations advisors.

    Crap. For a start I don’t see government press releases and the coverage this Government gets in the MSM is appalling, in the negative sense.

    This Government has heaps of failures, most notably its relative inaction on Global Warming, its failure to implement Equitable educational funding, its discriminatory treatment of some unions and the like.

    Take the last issue of Educational funding and its continuation of inequitable practices – care to point to a MSM article that highlights same? What about the other issues?

    As for ‘political games’, Tom that’s your stock in trade.

    But perhaps we might debate the definition of same?

  338. Thanks Joni.

    Having watched the 7:30 Report, I noticed that Malcolm Turnbull was mostly concentrating on facts. I note that Kevin Rudd made several ridiculous claims including alleging that the opposition made up the allegedly fake email. Does he have any basis for that or is he just throwing mud hoping it will stick? He also alleged that Mr Turnbull made claims of corruption against Mr Rudd. That is again false. Rudd has a habit of sensationalising things and I am sick and tired of many people letting him get away with it.

    BTW, the argument that the Liberal Party does/has done it too (mud slinging/sensationalising) does not make it okay.

  339. You’ve once again proved you need to brush up on some facts, including the difference between civil and criminal standards. The examples you’ve provided require entirely different standards of evidence and proof.

    Really? So you claim we should remove people from office because they might have used it inappropriately? If not, then your comment is just you trying to provoke another tit-for-tat.

    If so, please show me where that was done? Even Fitzgibbon resigned (not was fired) because of things proven, not alleged. It’s pretty reasonable to say that the previous government might have been involved in the AWB scandal and/or the Children Overboard scandal, but nothing was done until it was proven one way or the other. Some might say nothing was done anyway, but that’s not what this is about.

  340. The email being apparently a fake is irrelevant as far as making a case against Swan is concerned. But Rudd has effectively run interference for him so he, Swan, might live to fight another day.

  341. Are you sure the have the word-salad sequenced appropriately, Scaper? Perhaps ‘check his case to make his facts’ is the perception he’s avoiding, presently.

  342. So, therefore according to Turnbull the fake emails were ‘concocted by Treasury’ or ‘in Treasury’. This is via Tony and self..but either gets the idea. That is, Turnbull is saying that a false email was concocted by public servants – then (guessing from the chain of events) to Steve Lewis – then to Turnbull.

    Well who’s a silly duffer then, imagine believing a journo who has received a copy of an email from the tea lady/or tea laddie or someone or another who works somewhere in Canberra..or similar…

  343. I’m loving these bald assertions, johnd. Why is it irrelevant? Surely a good abstract conceptual process t(h)inkerist can think of a few ways to make it relevant; or even just a political strategist might. 😉

  344. Enter right stage…..Mal Brough.

    It was a torrid ordeal, much blood spilt on both sides. Rudd slithered through with a broken fingernail, Swan is on life support and was nearly killed off. But then Turnbull, who had selected dry weather boots, found the ground was a lot softer and muddier than it had appeared and as the battle raged he simply couldn’t keep his feet. And then they started hitting him in old sore spots, reopening old wounds, until the loss of blood was more than any man could bear. A classic case of biting off more than one can chew.

    Some will crawl crying to Costello, which is pretty much what he’s wanted all along, but I think it’s now too late, sadly. The only one in Parliament with the required seniority is Abbott, but he simply isn’t likeable enough. Hockey is likeable, but just a little too junior. Mal Brough is a bit like Costello. He doesn’t have to my knowledge any skeletons in the closet (what were they thinking putting Turnbull in) and he’s a hard, tough competitor. And I think he has a genuine social conscience.

  345. Al, on June 22nd, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    “rational” right wingers are always the most fun to play with, AI

    Look forward to seeing you more in the sand pit!

    Makes life more interesting – BTW, Turncoat was awful tonight, checking and rechecking his notes – not a good look for constituents or colleagues … especially a lawyer – even a commercial type … always knew at meetings who was prepped and who wasn’t – it shows …

    BTW we Blogocrats don’t get paid to influence opinion – joni and reb should be flattered …

    … BTW (again) you didn’t tell me which party you vote for or get paid by …

  346. If you are not responsible – then doesn’t that make you irresponsible?

    I missed Turnbull on The 730 Report – but Rudd did seem to want to avoid any discussion of Swan.

    How can Turnbull survive an election campaign where this matter will be brought up again and again?

  347. The email being apparently a fake is irrelevant as far as making a case against Swan is concerned. But Rudd has effectively run interference for him so he, Swan, might live to fight another day.

    Agreed on both statements. Swan should face the facts as they stand against him without the fraudulent email clouding the issue. Unfortunately the email is in the mix now and there is not much the Liberals can do to get it out of it (after all, they brought it into the debate!).

    I don’t agree with it and I think Turnbull a dolt for not having checked his facts correctly, but that is the situation as it stands. Both sides are spinning like crazy when they simply should address the facts, but Labor has the better “angle” for the media and they’re using it.

    It’s the reason I dislike Question Time. Neither government ever answers the questions asked (unless they’re the plants from their own members), just makes diversions and sound bites. 😦

  348. Legion, Swan’s problem revolves around whether he or his department acted inappropriately, not whether the basis of their action was real or concocted.

  349. And I think he has a genuine social conscience

    Oxymoron with bells – LOL!

  350. Turnbull will survive for a number of reasons. First, the alternatives, by and large, are unthinkable. Second, the polls for Turnbull are trending up and the average punter doesn’t watch the 7.30 Report or give a rat’s, but they ‘know’ something seems ‘amiss’. Third, Rudd is damaged by this and the ‘honeymoon’ might be over. In which case Turnbull will claim credit.

    Of course Turnbull could be toast if the forgery was traced back to his office.

  351. This might all make BOTH sides become more professional (*dreamy look to the ceiling*) – as has been said before today – in business non of them would survive!

  352. Joni, you can watch the rerun of the interview here soon. I tend to watch it the next morning if I find I missed something good (usually by someone commenting on it here!). My chidlren are watching a movie atm, so I missed both interviews!

  353. If Turnbull falls it will be one of the great “acts” of parliament ever witnessed. He’ll only sit somewhere in the back benches before mounting a challenge for the leadership sometime in the future.

    Walrus – sorry to disappoint you but I look nothing like Grech. I have, in the past, been mistaken for Imran Khan, but never Godwin Grech.

    TB – Have been embroiled in my own affair. May I refer to it as duckgate?

  354. N5, I reckon this could enhance, Rudd & Co – people will know that Turnbull didn’t do his homework – they got p!$$ed off when they “finally” found out about the WMD farce!

  355. B.Tolputt – -I’m pointing out what a pedantic tool you’ve been in the past.

    You’re now trying to change the words you originally used, probably in the context of clarification, which of course is what I did. But you pushed the issue more than I intend to bother.

    You used the word “probably”, which I presume you agree means something like probable.

    In civil proceedings the standard of evidence used is “balance of probability”, this is also the standard used in employment.

    I don’t intend to pursue you on your ducking and weaving tonight, those are your standards.

    In any event I’m going out now.

    But I’ll look for your retraction or correction later.

  356. Migs – the broadband is slow but working !

  357. The Australian at: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25671252-601,00.html

    briefly mentions that a second property (other than Grech’s) was also visited that of a former Liberal staffer.

  358. The thick plottens..and a good evening to all.

  359. Tom. I’m sick of trying to be nice and avoiding debates because you are grinding your axe again. So frankly, I think you can go f#ck yourself.

    Unless we are suing Wayne Swan, any talk of “civil litigation” is bullshit and you know it. You are just being a contrary dickhead. Again.

  360. Oh shut up Tom. You just look silly.

  361. joni, on June 22nd, 2009 at 8:26 pm Said:

    but Rudd did seem to want to avoid any discussion of Swan.

    Of course. Tonight Rudd was determined to put the heat on Turnbull. As any media advisor will tell you, the maximum number of messages you can communicate in any interview is three – but one or two is preferable.

    The trick is to determine what the message is and then work out how many ways you can say the ‘same thing’, (communicate the message) using different words.

    The questions asked are irrelevant. Tis always the answers that count and whether they communicate the message or not.

    Tonight dealing with Swan would have been a distraction. Rudd remained on message which was -“The heat should be on Turnbull”.

  362. Can I just say, Joni, that Kevin Rudd was avoidant in his answers in interview, tonight. Might I also say that he was underwhelming in his attempts to re-interpret Kerry O’brien’s questions and answer questions unasked but more to his liking. Nevertheless, might I, antepenultimately, also just say, it is my recollection that Rudd clearly brought to the fore the gist of the Opposition’s innuendo integrity campaign. And, penultimately, might I just say that it is also my recollection that Malcolm fumbled repudiation of that innuendo in his interview even as he continued to embrace that innuendo as the central plank of his innuendo integrity campaign, which is the heart of the nudge, nudge wink, wink story of ‘special-ness’ as ‘corruption’. And, ultimately, might I just say, the battle of the interviews, when reduced down, seemed to consist of what Rudd did say and what Malcolm said he didn’t say and for which he wasn’t responsible, which isn’t a good comparison to draw, because either Rudd said something and Malcolm said something, or Rudd said something and Malcolm said nothing. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

  363. Legion, I’d luv to engage in dialogue but … 😯

  364. johnd, on June 22nd, 2009 at 8:28 pm

    Remind me not to have you as part of my conspiracy to bring down Government by salting the mine, johnd; you seem to have issues with processing cause and effect.

  365. Legion, I’d luv to engage in dialogue but … 😯

    *laugh* He’s been speaking regular human all day… it must have been tough on him! 😛

    Funny thing is that I actually understood his last post 🙂

  366. Oh shut up Tom. You just look silly.

    Damn. I’ve been skipping Tom’s posts. Now I’ll have to go back and read them.

  367. Miglo, on June 22nd, 2009 at 8:51 pm

    No you don’t, Migs, they’re all silly!

  368. Legion, on June 22nd, 2009 at 8:51 pm

    Oh, the ‘but for’ test attaches to Grech and not Swan; and it involves a change of frame of reference for the relational behaviour, as much as ‘Swan is the target’.

  369. Yes, Ben, I would regard the post in question as a “mind heavy petting” rather than a “mindfuck”. But to be fair, it must be hard to switch languages.

  370. Legion, on June 22nd, 2009 at 8:51 pm

    Legion, it’s always been a problem. I’m constantly selling out whilst others are buying in, then buying in whilst others are selling out. 😦

  371. @joni:
    the interviews are up on the 7:30 Report website if you wanted to catch the Turnbull interview.

  372. …and tomorrow is another day …

    g’night all …

    … did I tell you its my birthday in 7 days?

  373. johnd, on June 22nd, 2009 at 9:04 pm

    Malcolm did make it very clear that the only person who could be responsible for the faked or forged or concocted email was either the person who did so or and Swan, because Malcolm wasn’t responsible for it. If Malcolm wasn’t responsible for it and Malcolm has given himself a free pass for relying on it…

  374. And now Swan has backed up his claim that other dealers were treated the same.

    TREASURER Wayne Swan has released 21 pages of emails tonight which he says establish he had given other car dealers the same treatment as Prime Minister Kevin Rudd’s friend John Grant.

    I now think Swan will survive.

  375. Let’s wait and read them before exonerating Mr Swan, Joni. Swan said in parliament today there were a total of 20 emails from Grech to him concerning car dealers, and “only a handful” related to John Grant. That mystery number, “a handful”, is all important here.

  376. That mystery number, “a handful”, is all important here.

    Only to the desperate…

  377. Or the realistic.

  378. Why Tony – it shows that others were given the same treatment.

    And also remember that the accusation of being “not your average constituent” is from Grech.

    And I did not say it exonerates Swan, only that he will survive.

  379. Why Tony – it shows that others were given the same treatment.

    Does it? This is not news. We heard as much in parliament today. The only news here is that Swan has released these 20 (odd) emails, but what do they say, and how many of them relate to John Grant?

  380. Tony, on June 22nd, 2009 at 9:49 pm

    Frame of reference stuff again, perhaps…even ‘one’ communication is/was enough to get the ball rolling. How many is too many or too few, in the counting up-counting down calculus?

  381. ToM et al, you question why Trunchbull is the focus of continued interest in emailgate, although he isn’t in a position of authority.

    I would dispute that. He is the leader of the opposition and as such the alternative PM. His integrity and honesty should also be beyond question.

    His behaviour over the last few days has put the lie to that, imo. He hopped into a smear campaign against Rudd and Swan on the basis of a dodgy email whose authenticity he couldn’t even be bothered to check. Sloppy, dishonest and lacking integrity.

  382. Legion,

    If most of the emails concern John Grant, they are hardly proof of “equal treatment for all”. (Or, if most of them don’t, but the ones that do are specifically calling for ‘special’ assistance for Grant, and the others aren’t, then the same applies.)

    joni: closed this thread for comments, new thread up now. Shall we live blog about Lateline?

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