Is Australia a Racist Country?

Tom of Melbourne writes this timely commentary….

Given the basing of Indian students in Melbourne and the subsequent commentary in the Indian press, the Cronulla riots and the comments of Sol Trujillo, there is plenty to suggest that Australians have a latent racist streak.

We’re not even aware of the offence we cause, and we blame the victim – those that point this out, or the recipients of the violence.

Mainstream Australia is inward looking; we look down on most foreign cultures, and even our own indigenous culture.

We’re hardly worldly, most people have their “once in a lifetime trip” and leave it at that. Eating at the local Indian/Vietnamese/Greek etc restaurant seems to be regarded as evidence of our tolerance.

We are introverted, insecure about our own culture and mistrustful of others.

We have a barely concealed racist tendency, this breeds and tolerates the behaviour of overt the racists.

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280 Responses

  1. Adele Horin has long held the view we are racist but apparently only in certain periods depending on who our PM is or what party is in power. Utter nonsense of course, but it illustrates how this debate can be wrongly framed and generalised.

    Then there are certain opinion writers who play up the race card because they know it will stir the pot and get them ratings, but is that a true indication that Australians are racist, of course not.

    By any measure Australia is one of the most tolerant or accepting nations, and that fact should not be overlooked in blowing up the times racism does rear its ugly head here.

  2. The bashings of Indian students are racist acts, carried out by (violent) racists.

    However, they are in no way proof that “Australians have a latent racist streak”, only that there are racists among the general population – exactly what proportion this racist subset comprises is debatable.

  3. Please excuse spelling and grammar.

    But I think most will get the idea anyway.

  4. I would suggest that we are clearly a pack of racists.

    And quite unashamedly so.

    Part of it can be put down to Australia’s sense of “larrakinism” however a more serious part of it can be attributed to the “white Australia” mentality that was evident in the 60’s and that John Howard latched onto again in the 90’s when he realised there was votes in it when he saw how popular Pauline Hanson became with her Anti-Asian tirade.

    And the fact that The Australian Police have labelled Indians as a “soft target” for bashing indicates just how dismissive we are about the entire racism issue.

    It’s like “we know, but we don’t care”.

    Astonishing really.

  5. About a year ago I was in a fast food burger place and the guy in front of me was South Asian. When he asked the server for his meal the server asked three or four times what he was saying with a tone that implied that the customer should speak English better. I interjected that the customer was very clear in what he was saying. It was clear that the server was racist and deliberately wanted to mis-hear the customer.

    I then asked for the manager and made a formal complaint and left my details. Of course nothing was ever heard from the manager.

    With any racism, we must acknowledge that it is present, and then we must take action to prevent it.

  6. The difficulty though, is that we ought not to become so precious and PC that laughing about ourselves and our ‘differences’ becomes out of bounds.

    There are plenty of Australian comedy shows (like Fat Pizza) that lampoon wogs, and Fast Forward was famous for having a go at just about anyobdy of any nationality or sexuality.

    The ability to laugh at ourselves is one of the great things about living in Australia.

    But I think that when lame attempts at humour purely serve to thinly disguise disdain or attempts to malign another minority, that is when it crosses the line, as is the case often with Sam Newman and the Footy Show.

  7. Indian students do claim the the ethnic minority that likes to bash them are Pacific Islanders. Which figures given the contempt that those of Indian heritage are held in by natives of the Pacific. Just look at Fiji and the Solomons if you would like further proof.

  8. joni, on June 1st, 2009 at 12:43 pm Said:

    You should have reported it to the Head Office. And make sure the Duty Manager was made aware of your intention. Head Office has a brand to protect and it would be highly unlikely that they would ignore your complaint.

  9. Years ago I used to work for a very well known Malaysian property developer the head honchos of which were pretty much exclusively Malay Chinese.

    They always used to say to me that in Malaysia if you have a gun with only one bullet and you see a cobra and an Indian coming down the street towards you then always shoot the Indian and take your chances with the cobra.

    So …………………..are we any worse ?

  10. Walrus,

    Without wishing to make a gross generalisation, Pacific Islanders hate f**kin’ everyone..

    The Tongans hate the Samoans (and vice versa), all Pacific Islanders hate the Maoris (and vice versa), and the Maori’s also hate everyone else, but are happy so long as the NZ government continues to give them free handouts for doing nothing other than sitting around on their fat asses smoking Winnie Reds and gagging back jugs of grog.

    All funded by the working white people – who they hate.

    It’s a bit like the Arabs in the Middle East. They hate Americans but have no issues staying at five star American hotels and resorts whenever they’re overseas on holiday..

  11. Walrus,

    There are reports that some of the alleged perpertrators in Melbourne were of African appearance.

  12. reb, on June 1st, 2009 at 1:25 pm Said

    “……Pacific Islanders hate f**kin’ everyone..”

    That might be the case. I can only speak for Sydney where the reports are that PIs are the main instigators.

    Tony,

    I think Africans have a problem with Indians too. Look at how Idi Amin tossed them out not to mention the old Apartheid regimes of South Africa as well.

  13. Adrian, I don’t think that reflection of our attitudes is “playing a racist” card.

    Our possible (relative) level of tolerance is no reason to ignore some of the underlying attitudes that don’t take stirring much to surface.

    If the middle ground tolerates racist undertones, then the fringe element will be particularly extreme.

    The middle ground does tolerate racism; the previous government accommodated Pauline Hanson. The ALP provided Graham Campbell with preselection for many years, because it was expedient.

    I think it is probably time for people to be more vocal about the offense that any form of racism causes.

    Tony, the racism is latent, ie concealed, because we don’t vigorously push back on it. We put up with it. This gives comfort to the stupid racists.

  14. Of course if you go to “the Shire” (Cronulla area in Sydney) you’ll encounter the closest thing you’ll get to down town KKK Alabama country.

    They pride themselves on their lack of tolerance to other cultures.

  15. By the way, just how many Indian students are there in Melbourne? Last night’s TV news showed thousands in the demonstration.

    I know a couple of cops who work at the Mt Druitt police station (western Sydney for youse interstate furreigners) and what they have to say about PIs and associated violence would make your hair turn grey.

  16. Ah Tony, there were reports were there? And just what reports would they be, you don’t mean the Andrew Bolt beatup? Andrew has Africans involved in every crime going in Australia at the moment.

    By the way I believe there was one perpetrator out of one group of mostly European looking perpetrators described as being of Southern Asian/African/or Aboriginal appearance, but who could have just as easily been a PI.

  17. Oh c’mon off it Tom, they play the racist card, plain and simple. They don’t do it directly but pose very generalised articles hinting of an ethnic group’s alleged propensity for something they know will rile up the racist elements of their audience, and in spades it never fails, the ratings sky rocket and they ask for more money in the next round contract negotiations.

  18. This gives comfort to the stupid racists.

    Is it possible that ‘racism’ once served a purpose, whether hard-wired or cultural? Is ‘racism’ necessarily stupid when considered outside today’s ‘tolerant’ lens? Is it even possible to eradicate ‘racism’ with the wave of a pen if ‘racism’ is more deeply-rooted in either the genome or the psyche? (NB, racism is used here in a neutral sense, and not the pejorative catch-cry which has co-opted a broadened concept.)

  19. Legion, on June 1st, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    In other words, it’s great looking at ‘racism’ at a superficial level of analysis; but what are its origins, how does it function, how does it function across and between (sub-)cultures, etc?

  20. I would say that every country is racist. Name one that isn’t.

    Daphon..lots and lots of Indian uni students in Melbourne. And many of them drive taxis and many of them do the pizza run and many of them work as volunteers.

  21. Adrian, perhaps I didn’t express my options clearly.

    Possibly some tv shows promote racial intolerance for ratings, and this is fertile ground. Nothing like a beat up to promote stereotypes, and stereotyping is at the heart of racism.

    I think most people want to find reasons to reflect poorly on pretty well anyone who is not Anglo Saxon.

    Australia is far more tolerant of “people like us”. We’re suspicious of everyone else. This isn’t exactly tolerance.

  22. Aren’t we aiming for ‘acceptance’ not merely ‘tolerance’ if we’re overcoming ‘racism’ (whatever its origins) via cultural interventions if race alone is the locus of discrimination (and not other attributes slipped through a rhetorical backdoor under the banner of ‘racism’)?

  23. Min – “I would say that every country is racist. Name one that isn’t.”

    I think this position supports apathy, you know – “we may be intolerant, but look at our neighbour…”

    Complacency is very unhealthy and I don’t think we ought to set the bar at a low level on racism.

  24. And if the ‘bar’ is unrealistic from the get-go because it flies in the face of a reality about human behaviour, no matter how nice it is as an idea?

  25. Tom of Melbourne said:

    Mainstream Australia is inward looking; we look down on most foreign cultures, and even our own indigenous culture.

    Indeed that’s the case but that stance isn’t explained by reference to the concept of ‘racism’.

    Racism is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race.

    ‘Racism’ can’t explain my dislike for certain other cultures or at least certain ‘foreign’ cultural practices such as the way Americans ‘spoil’ their children or my dislike for English ‘food’.

    Sometimes the concept of ‘ethnocentrism’ adds value to understanding

    characterized by or based on the attitude that one’s own group is superior

    Or:

    Ethnocentrism is a basic attitude expressing the belief that one’s own ethnic group or one’s own culture is superior to other ethnic groups or cultures, and that one’s cultural standards can be applied in a universal manner.

    Sometimes ‘cultural’ differences, including religious differences, can be more significant that racial differences when driving human behaviour. Then of course there’s xenophobia – the fear of the unknown – that also causes irrational behaviour.

  26. Complacency is very unhealthy and I don’t think we ought to set the bar at a low level on racism.

    I agree Tom.

    The key to oversoming racism is for ignorant people to “get out more”.

    Here in Tasmania for example, I’m gobsmacked at the number of middle-aged people who have never been outside of Tasmania.

    And a large number of those that have, have only ever just been to the fricken Gold Coast..!!

    That’s their sum total exposure to a multi-cultural experience.

    And as long as Australia is going to hold up people like Steve Irwin and Crocodile Dundee as the typical Aussie bloke, then we will forever be the laughing stock on the international community…

    It’s like whenever I used to have to attend Asia Pacific business meetings in Hong Kong.

    The Australian contingent stood out like dogs balls. Typically they wore the worst suits, crappy shoes, and then couldn’t wait to get pissed as soon as it hit 5.00pm and then would show up for meetings the next day reeking of alcohol and BO, and just sit there like dumb f**ks and then would just be argumentative by way of appearing to make a contribution – shouting over every one else …”nah mate, nap, nah mate, we ain’t gunna dae it like that…”

    It’s just embarrassing..

  27. I don’t think there is any intrinsic human behaviour that is necessarily racist. On the contrary, it is a result of ignorance. Ignorance is situational.

    As you may be aware, I deal with problems simplistically. In this respect I consider attitudes on issues such as race, multiculturalism etc to follow a standard distribution.

    By definition the median has 50% above/below. It this mainstream position tolerates racism, then the 90th percentile will be extreme.

    It the median position doesn’t tolerate racism, that is, the common attitude is accepting and tolerant of diversity, the extreme will be less extreme. Extremists are marginalised.

    Marginalism of extremists is healthy.

  28. Above comment was in response to Legion.

    Reb – “they wore the worst suits, crappy shoes”

    Was TB part of the delegation?

  29. Christopher Harshawardhana Mitchell has the following to say about “Curry-bashing”:

    It’s hard to say why this has translated into South Asians being particularly vulnerable to robbery and assault. A racial element is all too obvious in some of the attacks. But if you were thinking of it as white-on-brown, Aussie-versus-foreigner violence, you’d be mistaken, as the picture is more complicated than that. There is no dominant trend apparent in the ethnic background of the attackers – Anglos as well as people of European, Middle Eastern, African and Asian heritage all feature.

    Sunshine (the epicentre of these attacks) and its surrounding suburbs are undersupplied with community-enriching programs and facilities, but well-supplied with at-risk young men of various ethnicities who are susceptible to a lifestyle of brawling and petty crime. On the lookout for ways to prove their manhood and feel a sense of power, they pick on the different and the vulnerable.

  30. Tom of Melbourne, on June 1st, 2009 at 2:12 pm Said:
    “Australia is far more tolerant of “people like us”. We’re suspicious of everyone else. This isn’t exactly tolerance.”

    Tolerance is a difficult word. What does it mean or infer?
    For some it may mean “I don’t really like it, but I’ll put up with it” That is hardly acceptance.

    Then there is the concept of reverse-racist.
    Is Australia a reverse-racist country?
    Which concept should we be examining?

  31. By the way, India has its own appalling systemised version of racism: it’s called the caste system.

  32. Is there still a doubt that you aussies are not racists? I rememeber when Symonds said that Indian cricket team has passed Racists comments on him… Have some shame guys…

  33. The conflict is clearly growing. Everyone found a point to complain against another. But it ultimately hurts each one of us, if not today, then tomorrow. When freedom is misused with weapons or words, consequences aren’t good for anybody.

  34. reb,

    The key to oversoming racism is for ignorant people to “get out more”.

    I think this works both ways too. If migrants didn’t “ghetto’ise” themselves and mixed into the general community then perhaps some of the barriers might come down. In other words if we all got to know each other, then we’d realise we’re pretty much the same regardless of race, religion, sexuality etc.

    The target of the racism label by MSM etc. seems to be mainly Anglos and little is heard of the racist attitudes of other groups towards Anglos. Putting aside the Cronulla riot, so much of the racial tension in Sydney is one or other migrant group against another.

  35. Rajnish,

    Is there still a doubt that you aussies are not racists?

    Glad you found this thread. Judging by your comment you’re not Australian. A further guess, going by your screen-name, is you are Indian (please correct me if I’m wrong about that).

    What do you say about some of this stuff back home?

  36. Honestly, I don’t think anyone can look at areas/elements of our country and not believe that there is rampant racism in Australia. However, there are areas/elements in all countries that are racist. For example, in America you have ‘the South’, in India there is the caste system, in Japan & China there are areas/elements where there is outright hatred of the other country.

    The thing to consider is whether this makes the country as a whole racist or merely a minority making a bad name for the nation? For example, we could easily take the Redfern Riots (with it’s large number of indigenous participants) and apply it to all Aboriginals. That would be wrong (as many here would loudly attest) but is the same as applying the attitudes of Cronulla nation-wide. I can personally state that those attitudes do not apply to the NSW Central Coast which is (at times) sickeningly PC.

    The Indian bashing is a racist act – no doubt about it. Is it a reflection on all Australians though? I don’t attribute the KKK killing of black people to all Americans and feel that this is a similar principle that should be applied here.

  37. (Second line above is a quote from Rajnish’s comment.)

    joni: fixed.

  38. I think all Australians should write an apology to the rest of the world for our racist attitudes and for not being able to meet the high standards set by other cultures. We should then slash our wrists after attending a tolerance workshop.

  39. Just some thoughts while I’m waiting on the line for my ISP to answer (how could I use over 4gbs in an hour?):

    Is multiculturism a cause, minor or otherwise, of racism? Would encouragement (not forcefully, of course) of integration actually lower the risk and instances of racist behaviour? Did the earlier generations of migrants to places like Australia and the US integrate into society better by Anglicizing their names, learning
    English etc. ?

  40. The last sentence there is not saying that Anglo-culture is better than that of the migrant, just ‘when in Rome …’

  41. Pacific Islanders hate f**kin’ everyone..

    My little grandie is 1/4 Torres Strait Islander..and she doesn’t much hate anyone or anything..
    however is she is not too keen on brussel sprouts.

  42. Did the earlier generations of migrants to places like Australia and the US integrate into society better by Anglicizing their names, learning
    English etc.

    Could well be..

    All I know is there used to be a lot of Chinese guys in the 70’s called “Harry” running Chinese takeaways…

  43. Min

    Everybody hates brussel sprouts…

    In fact, they ought to be rounded up and sent back to Brussels.

  44. Daphon – “If migrants didn’t “ghetto’ise” themselves and mixed into the general community then perhaps some of the barriers might come down.”

    We haven’t exchanged too many views, but this type of comment is really annoying.

    I’ve lived overseas, and there is significant comfort in finding friends that speak your language, that understand your interests and background.

    It is quite daunting and stressful to confront a new culture and language. It is no surprise to me that people look for the lower stress option.

    It is appropriate that rest of us reflect on how to make life here more inclusive, friendly, less threatening.

    One way is to be completely intolerant of racists. Portray them as ignorant.

  45. Portray them as ignorant.

    Given the comments out of the mouths of most racists I have met – this is something they do well enough on their own!

    The issue isn’t that they come across as cultured & smart (most don’t); it’s that when they get together with others like them – they form a sort of “echo chamber” which successfully inoculates them from the mainstream of society opinion. Kind of like Bolt’s blog…

  46. Good grief..with apologies..as things are getting too far ahead, what with the ruptured disc etc.

    But re: Did the earlier generations of migrants to places like Australia and the US integrate into society better by Anglicizing their names, learning
    English etc.
    +++

    As a family historian for the past 16+ years, yes indeed they did. Chee became O’Chee. On many occasions the names became almost unrecognisable…for example a common first name for Chinese/Malays was James.. I suspect that James might have had a lyrical tone, hence the choice.

    And of course a recent example is Joe Hockey who was born in Bethlehem (not kidding, check on Wick). The surname is Hokeidonian.

  47. Reb..I stand up for brussel sprouts. And they never came from Brussels in the 1st place! These sprouts are clearly displaced persons..umm, veges.

  48. Tom of Melbourne, I live in semi-rural town on the outskirts of Sydney – no Asians, no Muslims (yes, I know they’re not a race), no Aborigines … actually I don’t think I know of any locals ‘of foreign appearance’, just the hordes of international tourists.

    Just trying to say if we knew people of different origins – ethnic, religious, etc. – as neighbours then people on both sides of the racial divides would see we’re all the same. It could be a real step to ending racism.

    As for living in Kangaroo Valley if I moved permanently to another country, I’m quite confident the first thing I would do is learn the language of the adopted country. I’ve never forgotten a Greek neighbour when I lived in Sydney who after 47 years in Australia still could not speak or understand English. Surely this puts the person at a major disadvantage.

  49. Brussels sprouts: cut in half, dab with butter & garlic and bake in the oven. Mouth-watering.

  50. “………..If migrants didn’t “ghetto’ise” themselves and mixed into the general community then perhaps some of the barriers might come down……………”

    Daphon, on June 1st, 2009 at 3:23 pm Said:

    That sounds exactly like the types that live in the high rise apartments overlooking Cronulla Beach………………………….But hang on………………………they’re White

  51. I’m still hanging on the phone here.

    Speaking brussels sprouts again or at least food: as a vegan whose main diet consists of the flavours and foods of India, the Middle East etc., I would love to have neighbours from those countries just so we could exchanges recipes for a start. 🙂

  52. We will never rid ourselves of the racist tag while we continue to import racists. An example of this is the acid throwing in Westmead when a group of Tamils paid a visit to two Sinhalese students. It followed a day of scuffles in and around Westmead and Wentworthville. No sign of Anglos.

  53. “That sounds exactly like the types that live in the high rise apartments overlooking Cronulla Beach………………………….But hang on………………………they’re White”

    As a regular visitor to the area (lots of relos in ‘the shire’), not only are they white most of them are the epitome of the word bogan.

  54. Daphon:

    Brussels sprouts: cut in half, dab with butter & garlic and bake in the oven. Mouth-watering.

    That might be your recipe but mine is:

    Brussels sprouts: cut in half, dab with butter & garlic and bake in the oven. Dispose of in rubbish. Mouthwatering.

  55. Feeding children Brussel Sprouts is tantamount to child abuse.

  56. Oh – and there are plenty on here with vegie recipes. And hopefully we will see Lekhni on here again.

  57. Daphon, on June 1st, 2009 at 4:30 pm Said

    I was there on Australia Day about 7 years ago. It was rather a site…………………. a very fertile area for any sort of Nationalistic Political Party.

    Jackie Kelly and her husband should have lived there.

  58. Daphon..a brussel sprout isn’t worth thruppence unless tossed in a dab of butter and fresh lemon juice.

    Cannot imagine a sprout plus garlic. But just because you say so, will give it a try.

  59. How the Hell did we end up talking about Brussell Sprouts on this Thread ????????????

  60. Min, on June 1st, 2009 at 4:08 pm Said:

    And of course a recent example is Joe Hockey who was born in Bethlehem (not kidding, check on Wick). The surname is Hokeidonian

    Probably explains why he thinks he’s the Messiah – and we all know that he’s just a naughty boy …

  61. Joni..kidding.. Well I hope that you’re not. Have been missing Lekhni lots.

  62. We are just taking the Manekin Pis out of them.

  63. Please keep up, IATW (typical bloody hairy faced immigrant – geeze…!)

  64. Daphon..you’re a vegan…two of my crew are vegetarians. Youngest is a mostly vegan…if this makes sense. Ezra wouldn’t eat meat or eggs (except the white) since the say that she was born. I just respected that this was just the way that she was. And yes I did take her to the pediatricians (age 2yrs) and the pediatrician said that she had the Perfect Diet re vitamins, calcium, fibre.

  65. Jackie Kelly and her husband should have lived there.

    For a country that is supposedly racist, and in particular the ‘Westie’ area of Sydney, that lot were given short shift at the last election.

    I can’t get over the predominance of Aussie flags in ‘the shire’, especially around Cronulla and Caringbah, in apartment and home windows, and on cars. A bit like a volcano just waiting to erupt again. I wouldn’t like to be of ‘ethnic appearance’ and live in that area.

  66. My family are all veg*n, Min, and all vitamin etc. tests show normal amounts. Better still no blood pressure problems and very low cholesterol (most, if not all, comes animal products).

  67. I am The Walrus, on June 1st, 2009 at 4:37 pm Said:
    How the Hell did we end up talking about Brussell Sprouts on this Thread ????????????

    Walrus..it’s because we are a multi racial, multi cultural society and the brussel sprout is a symbol for us all.

    Yay for the brussel sprout!!

  68. the brussel sprout is a symbol for us all.

    Could replace the Union Jack on our flag?

  69. *Could replace the Union Jack on our flag?*

    “Bout time something did, Daphon! 😉

  70. I would love to see the Aboriginal flag as our national flag as it’s so beautiful and so representative of our country. I can also understand why they may not want to share it with the rest of us.

  71. “Please keep up, IATW ……………..”

    TB Queensland, on June 1st, 2009 at 4:40 pm Said:

    I assume you mean in the area of Brussell Sprouts……….?

  72. “I would love to see the Aboriginal flag as our national flag”

    Daphon, on June 1st, 2009 at 5:11 pm Said:

    Fine…………..but can we have a Union Jack in the corner thankyou…..!

    Or at least St Patricks Cross………if I can have all the Union Jack

  73. Absolutely, IATW, steamed … or boiled?

    Daphon, that’s as daft as having the union jack – only represents some of us … 😯

    … ’tis funny though that Aboriginals have only had a flag since Australia 1971… and the colours are based upon the German flag (so is PNG’s) …

    … from the German Empire’s “intrusion” into the Pacific Region when they flew a similar flag to Germany’s current black/red/gold… plus a black/white/red “Imperial” flag with rampant lion …

  74. plus a black/white/red “Imperial” flag with rampant lion …

    TB Queensland, on June 1st, 2009 at 5:51 pm Said:

    Now thats what we need…………….we ned an animal on our flag………..Lets celebrate our uniqueness by putting an animal on our flag.

    I mean who else has an animal on their flag.

    What about we put…………………Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm…………..Let me think………………………..Russell Crowe perhaps……….Nah he’s a Kiwi………………………..what about a Tree Kangaroo……………of Tassie Devil……………………….Hey maybe a Tassie Tiger sucking on a stbbie of Cascade.

    Sounds good to me…………………….although I do have a preference for James Boag but they aint go an animal on their bloody label.

    Did someone mention Beer……………………..?

  75. The Aboriginal Flag..and anyone with knowledge of history to verify this? It was meant to represent Earth, Sun and People. The current Australian flag is the English ensign plus the Southern Cross. TB’s flag is the Eureka stockage. Maybe a combination of all. Which gives due respect to all.

  76. Eeek..I am faceless and awaiting moderation.

  77. What about a WALRUS?

  78. TB Queensland, on June 1st, 2009 at 6:03 pm Said

    Brilliant…………a very tasteful choice.

    And as relevant to Australia as a Union Jack too !

  79. Doodlie..do..just while I am stuck here awaiting moderation I thought that I would talk about my back…which is stuffed up. Nothing serious..just the usual L5-L3 pinched nerve type of things. I can stand, I can sit but sadly I not much else. Whinge for the day completed.

  80. Part of it can be put down to Australia’s sense of “larrakinism” however a more serious part of it can be attributed to the “white Australia” mentality that was evident in the 60’s and that John Howard latched onto again in the 90’s when he realised there was votes in it when he saw how popular Pauline Hanson became with her Anti-Asian tirade.

    Very true reb. I like your take on it. I just happen to have an electronic copy of the masterpiece: “A review of the racist ideologies of Social Darwinism and eugenics in colonial Australia in the formative years of Federation, and how these ideologies were applied to purify and secure a White Australia” and your comment lead me to refer to it. One thing stuck out – replace colonialists with Howard. It fits perfectly. Here are some excerpts from the study.

    As Australia celebrated its centenary of Federation the enquiring few raised the often-overlooked question of “Why did the colonies federate?” Among a variety of reasons, some historians attested that one of the prime movers behind Federation was likely to have been the emerging sense of nationhood of the mid to late nineteenth century. Or rather, it is argued, that the need to maintain and consolidate a sense of ethnic identity was perhaps more of a factor.
    Emergent scientific thoughts in Social Darwinism and eugenics ultimately sought to purify and secure a White Australia. The Indigenous population, and the hordes of Chinese entering the colony, were a perceived as a threat to this ‘purity’. Unlike the Indigenous Australians, who nature had supposedly chosen for extinction, the Chinese threat came not only from the racial conflicts that inspired the doctrine of Social Darwinism, but from a media inspired regime of propaganda that exposed Chinese social habits as immoral, and more importantly, dangerous to the colonial society.
    As it were, towards the end of the 19th century racism and nationalism had become almost synonymous, and the fundamental reason for the adoption of the subsequent White Australia policy, tellingly, was the preservation of a British-Australian nationality.
    Notions of ‘race’ and the mythology of white supremacy had helped shape early constructions of nationhood. The ebullient, nationalistic rhetoric of the 1890s and the period of Federation clearly established national unity on the basis of race, defined as essentially white and British. To define their unity as a nation, Australians had to define themselves against others of lesser races. The Australian of 1901 was reportedly a racist construction.
    Identification as British and as a part of the British Empire was obviously a convenient basis upon which to define the identity of Australians at the time of Federation. The colonists, being principally British Australians, wanted it kept that way.
    ‘Race’ and nation, and racism and nationalism, were theorised in their modern forms, significantly, around the period leading up to Australia’s Federation. Racism is the doctrine that the world’s population is divisible into categories based on physical differences which can be transmitted genetically. Invariably, this leads to the conception that the categories are ordered hierarchically so that some elements of the world’s population are superior to others. The link between racism and race is generally considered to be discrimination against others in virtue of their putatively different racial membership. Such an ideology justified the Australian colonial situation.
    For most of the nineteenth century there was no strong evidence of distinctively Australian identity: Australian saw themselves as part of a group of new, transplanted, predominantly Anglo-Saxon emigrant societies. A sense of national distinctiveness only grew stronger towards the end of the century, and this was accompanied by an explicit racial element, based on being Anglo-Saxon, as confidence in the new society grew on being the most vigorous branch of Anglo-Saxondom. The latter formed the basis for a belief in the emergence of an Australian ‘national type’, which was given not only physical and racial characteristics, but also a moral and social identity. The Australian type saw itself as superior to all other ‘races’.
    With the discovery of gold in 1851, the influx of Chinese became a major focus as the intensity and institutionalism of racism increased, and this continued to agitate throughout the second half of the nineteenth century.
    These largely inoffensive and hard-working people were perceived as representing an implicit threat to white Australians. Just when the colonial population had begun to feel comfortable in their new surroundings and had written the Aborigines off as a dying race, the large Chinese presence raised the spectre of the European Australians following their black predecessors along the path to historical oblivion.
    Subsequent anti-Chinese paranoia was also fuelled by intellectual fashions in Social Darwinism. This led to pressure in colonial parliament to limit the flow of Chinese entering the colonies. Fear and loathing of all non-Britannic Australians, and a firm belief in ‘white superiority’ could be expressed in the uniform immigration laws.
    Australia’s geography, positioned close to the heavily populated Asian countries, resulted in the evolvement of a xenophobic, isolationist worldview, in which Social Darwinism justified the construction of psychological barriers against the near neighbours. Discernment, or rather, paranoia of the Asian ‘hordes’ to the north, and a tenet that Social Darwinism served to create an awareness of struggles between races, was a source of civic anxiety in colonial Australia.
    A forewarning that mass Chinese migration was as great as the threat of Indigenous insurrection was an issue that was not lost on the press of the day. European racial ideals and preoccupations are indeed well exemplified by editorials and correspondent’s features in a number of journals, both influencing and reflecting public opinion. These journals were filled with articles of provocative issues that popularised scientific racist theories and provided plenty of examples to support these theories. A number of popular journals such as The Age and The Bulletin, and local and national publications all harangued the public with sensational articles and cartoons warning of the threat to the social and moral well-being of – and in particular – an emerging Australian type.
    In particular, adaptation of evolutionary theory to the defence of radicalism was well ‘illustrated’ from the 1880s in contributions to The Bulletin. This ferociously nationalistic publication unleashed itself as the most persuasive and effective journal in the country for promoting the discourse that the Australian type and that Australian society had evolved into something unique and worth protecting. The Bulletin showed constant enthusiasm for the things it admired most about Australia – egalitarianism, democracy, masculinity, the bush tradition of mateship, and the emerging Australian type.
    From 1893 The Bulletin’s banner declared ‘Australia for the White Man’ and continued with suppositions that both the Chinese and the Aborigines (or any peoples considered racially ‘inferior’) were to be absolutely excluded.
    For most of the nineteenth century there was no strong evidence of distinctively Australian identity, Australians saw themselves as part of a group of predominantly Anglo-Saxon emigrant societies. A sense of national distinctiveness only grew stronger towards the end of the century, and this was accompanied by a more explicitly racial element, based on being Anglo-Saxon, as confidence in the new society grew. It was further possible to isolate the Australian national type founded on the structure of ideas about national character, which witnessed the construction of hegemonic ideas of racism and superiority among the European-Australians.

  81. TB,

    Daphon, that’s as daft as having the union jack – only represents some of us … 😯

    Like your avatar? 😉

  82. I think the Eureka flag is too closely aligned with loony fringe groups, particularly nationalistic ones, these days to have any chance of being the national, or part of the national, flag.

  83. Whew! Well that’s put paid to my paranoia about the covert invasion of the world by the Chinese using China Towns as a base … I’m obviously just a white supremist, nowt ta worry about at all …

    … still according to “rascist research” my great- great – grandchildren will all be muslims …

    … that’s if North Korea doesn’t obliterate the planet …

    … anyway I didn’t say anything to the Chinese tourists about taking our favourite spot on the seafront today, I did have a chat about thier holiday here and what they thought about Oz – one remark I recall “…the people here are very friendly and always helpful …”

    … I guess we must be improving … slowly

    Seriously, I always have trouble with what is and isn’t racist – I like to think I’m not but I probably have been considered racist by someone somewhere, sometime …

    … I have been accused on more than one occasion as “flippant” (see above 🙂 )

    I also think some people can be a bit “precious” when it comes to their “feelings” … and “respect” is a two way street that must be earned not expected …

    Maybe the concepts that Gene Roddenberry proposed in the 1960’s will one day come to pass … and we will boldly go where no-one has gone before … together …

  84. Daphon, on June 1st, 2009 at 6:29 pm

    LOL!

  85. I was just reading this on the ABC news website:

    The attacks, branded by Indian media as race-based, prompted the Indian Government to summon the Australian ambassador to urge for action.

    Four Indian students were attacked with a screwdriver by a gang at a Melbourne party last weekend. One of the victims remains in hospital with serious injuries.

    Another Indian student was attacked in what appeared to be a robbery, and there were three other attacks in early May, including two on Indian taxi drivers.

    Given the apparent huge number of Indians who live in Melbourne is there any proof that the above were racially motivated? People have fights at parties all the time as do robberies. Taxi drivers have been targets of violence and robbery since the first Hansom or rickshaw appeared I would imagine.

    In the same article it says that Bollywood superstar Amitabh Bachchan’s decided to turn down an honorary doctorate in protest of recent attacks on Indian students in Australia. Isn’t that not only racist too and headlining, but also quite juvenile?

  86. Honestly, there would be riots if the Aboriginal flag were to be adopted as our national flag… and I’d likely be joining in.

    I understand the need for reconciliation and all (though, as I’ve blogged previously, think they take it too far sometimes); but one has to face the facts that the “indigenous population” of Australia makes up less than three percent of our nation’s people. There are more people who regard themselves as Italian’s helping make this a prosperous nation than that!

    It’s ideas like this that give the lunatic fringe the excuses they need to justify their despicable behaviour. We have enough problems with their Australia Day antics without giving them a viable platform to support their bile.

  87. I agree Daphon, bikies, unions (sssh, Tom’s around) …

    I use because it represented a few men and women fighting for fairness, justice and equal rights against the establishment … (I refer to The Robber Barons)
    – of the government kind)

    Just because “fringe” groups have highjacked the Eureka flag doesn’t mean that it diminishes its true symbolism for those who know the history …

    …BTW I would never put the Eureka flag forward as a National Flag – I do enjoy flying it on the Queen’s Birthday though …

    I much prefer something brand new – the Canadians did it well …

  88. I agree, Daphon, all “honorary doctorates” are juvenile …

  89. Ben

    Really? I honestly did not know that there was a passion against the aboriginal flag.

    I love the colours and symbolism in that flag.

  90. TB,

    Not a uni graduate, but I’ve often thought honorary PhDs devalue those who earned them by the traditional method.

    B.Tolputt,

    My liking of the Aboriginal flag has nothing to with its origins, symbolism or reconciliation, I simply like its colours and design.

  91. We’ve got clowns in the government and even bigger clowns in opposition and people are talking about changing the flag?

    I believe that everybody has a degree of racist in them, it’s just some people expose their prejudices and others don’t…it is part of mankind’s tribal instinct, similar to a sporting team supporter.

    Australia is no more racist than any other western nation.

  92. Much as it pains me to admit the fact, the Aussie working-man has traditionally been as racist as any Klansman.

    They’ve agitated and rioted against, bashed (and murdered) Chinese in the days of the Gold Rush and Kanakas in the latter 19th Century. They were the constituency to whom the White Australia Policy was pitched over many, many decades.

    My own Grandmother (may God bless her), a working-class girl born in 1901, was initially pretty-miffed when I returned from Campus with an Indian fiancee in the mid-70’s. She could remember stories that her own Grandfather had told her about those bloody Orientals on the goldfields, stealing a man’s claim, pinching their dross (to re-work it for missed gold) and, most of all, digging those odd round-shafts, when every European miner was digging square-profiled ones. Plus they never filled-in or covered their shafts after the’d moved-on to another claim and a fella could break his bloody neck walking across the field a night. (Well, those were the basic gripes as I heard them third-hand, anyhow).

    Gran couldn’t understand why I’d want to marry a “darkie”, as she put-it. She was surprised that the girl could speak English (even if she was a Medical Student).

    Pretty-soon, however, she saw past the colour of her skin, got to know my fiancee and they became friends. Regrettably, Gran died before the wedding (by which time she thought the world of the girl and was rather wondering why such a person would want to marry me!)

    But it was certainly a bit frosty to start-with, that’s for sure.

    As for the White Australia Policy, although it was undoubtedly the creation of the Australian working class, it should also be recognised that it was a Labor Government (Gough Whitlam’s) that finally buried it. And good-on him for doing-so.

  93. Really? I honestly did not know that there was a passion against the aboriginal flag.

    Then you haven’t talked to the people from around where I grew up. It’s not so much the flag itself (which, let’s face it, is a relatively stylish & simple design!) but the fact that it is attached to the Aboriginal / Indigenous movements.

    It’s hard to separate a symbol from associated history (try sticking a swastika in your window, even given it’s original meaning – you’re bound to be unpopular). For low income families trying to give their kids a leg up in university, having to face the fact that the guy living next door gets three times as much Abstudy as their kid’s Austudy supplement because their great-grandfather was indigenous is a hard pill to swallow. This may have changed since my university days (late nineties) but I somewhat doubt it could have happened without major outcry (i.e. I think I would have heard about it).

    So take an family of Italian, Irish, Pacific, or even Chinese descent and tell them the nation they worked their butts off to help their kids into is going to be known internationally by an Aboriginal / Indigenous symbol. There will be an outcry. And this is without the lunatic fringe who would love just such an outlet for public tension.

    My liking of the Aboriginal flag has nothing to with its origins, symbolism or reconciliation, I simply like its colours and design.

    I too think it is a simple & stylish design that would make a nice flag. On the other hand, stylistically speaking – there isn’t much difference between the swastika and a Star of David. Worlds of difference between the kinds of people that will rally around or against said symbols though.

  94. “…it is part of mankind’s tribal instinct, similar to a sporting team supporter.
    Australia is no more racist than any other western nation.”

    The Mayor has nailed it again. People are ignorant without education. Don’t bother to stop ignorance.

    GO YOU WHITES!!!

  95. Well, If we’re going to have a change of flag, I’d vote for ther Eureka Flag (despite the undoubtedly racist tendencies of the miners that designed-it).

    At the end of the day, it’s the only National symbol that hasn’t been designed by some slick spin-doctor, that doesn’t tug its fore-lock to the bloody Poms and is a something that people have actually died-under in battle in support of the reasonably democratic principle of Parliamentary representation.

    It’s the closest Australian equivalent of the Betsy Ross.

  96. As for a flag, I’d go the simplest option. Cut out the union jack, and put in a simpler version of our coat of arms.

    Non contentious, no one could object and it is Australian.

  97. How’s the irony? We, a multi cultural nation, sit and wonder how we became so evil that some of the cultures hate some of the other cultures. Good grief.

    I don’t think the attacks on the Indians are racially motivated, except to the extent that Indians are seen as soft targets, and the attackers are spineless cowards. Much like the attacks on gays. The perception of gays is they’re less likely to fight back, being effeminate and all, so they’re an easier target. I’m sure if you’re an Indian or a gay man who’s had the daylights beaten out of you, you’d think it was racially or sexually based, but it’s not. I remember being on Chapel Street late one night with a large group of mates. One of us was about 50m ahead talking on his mobile and a car full of hoons stopped and jumped out with baseball bats. One of those great moments as suddenly it dawned on them that this chap had mates. Our bloke was just a soft target.

    But in pigeon-holing these crimes as racist or some other form of prejudicial hatred misses the point. It focuses on the adjectives (racial) and not the noun (hatred). The hatred is going to exist and will find a reason to manifest itself. It will draw on inner fears (which we all have to some degree) and find a soft target. But it’s the hate that needs to be dealt with, and it’s a growing problem. Why is there so much more hate crime? Why are we seeing more and more increasingly violent crimes? It’s not just drugs and alcohol. There’s something deeper going on, and it seems no-one wants to address it. There have been occasions where I’ve muttered something under my breath about stupid Asian drivers in traffic. But I don’t hate them any more than I hate elderly men and women or luscious young blondes, who I’ve called stupid old bats or bimbos in precisely the same tone. The anger is inside me and the racism, ageism, sexism is simply an expression of that anger. I love luscious young blondes, I really do.

    So we can lash ourselves over our inherent racism, because we do guilt so well after all, and inevitably make the problem worse as “career victims” seek to profit from it and fuckwits see another avenue to rebel and “fly the flag” but it will all be a distraction from dealing with the real problem, just as the alcopops legislation debacle turned out to be.

  98. …..and yes, I think we should just ditch the Union Jack from the flag.

  99. We agree that it’s not acceptable to judge people on their colour, creed or sexual preferences. So why is it still acceptable to discriminate against people on the basis of their economic/social status?

  100. Martin Luther King said the only way to judge someone was by looking to the “content of their character.” Do you lot consider this a reasonable rule-of-thumb for Australia in 2009?

  101. Daphon, on June 1st, 2009 at 4:27 pm Said:

    “Speaking brussels sprouts again or at least food: as a vegan whose main diet consists of the flavours and foods of India, the Middle East etc., I would love to have neighbours from those countries just so we could exchanges recipes for a start. 🙂 ”

    Bugger the recipes, Daphon, just tell them it’s an old Australian custom that all newcomers who hail from countries with yummy food must cook all your meals for at lest 5 years.

    B.Tolputt, on June 1st, 2009 at 7:53 pm Said:

    “For low income families trying to give their kids a leg up in university, having to face the fact that the guy living next door gets three times as much Abstudy as their kid’s Austudy supplement because their great-grandfather was indigenous is a hard pill to swallow. This may have changed since my university days (late nineties) but I somewhat doubt it could have happened without major outcry (i.e. I think I would have heard about it).

    So take an family of Italian, Irish, Pacific, or even Chinese descent and tell them the nation they worked their butts off to help their kids into is going to be known internationally by an Aboriginal / Indigenous symbol. There will be an outcry. And this is without the lunatic fringe who would love just such an outlet for public tension.”

    Maybe they could just regard it as a mortgage payment on the country which has been appropriated from the indigenous peoples without a by-your-leave, let alone a cash payment, unless you count infecting them with a host of deadly diseases, poisoning their water supplies and food and denying their very existence as fair payment.

    IMO, this is a far more bitter pill to swallow than a few of us migrants throwing a hissy fit about giving the first inhabitants a nod.

    As for all you sproutists, I say fie upon you! Next thing you’ll be sullying the good name of of the honest pumpkin!

  102. Yeah, I was wondering about whether the attacks on those Indian people in Melbourne were racially-motivated or just a bunch of n’ere-do-wells going for the soft target too. I guess there’s no way to know at this stage.

    That might change, if The Plod catch the perps and they fess-up to attacking Indians because they were Indians. My gut-feeling is that they were just a bunch of punks going for the lone-soft target and that the attacks were not racially-motivated at all.

    As for targetting gays, I’ve gotta say, James, that the following might not work-out so well in all cases:

    “The perception of gays is they’re less likely to fight back, being effeminate and all, so they’re an easier target…”

    Maybe that’s the perception, but many of the gay fellas I know spend quite a bit of time in the Gym and boxing-ring (body beautiful, and all that crap) and- ah – any fool that took them-on mano-e-mano is riding for a hiding.

    Maybe that’s why these scum go for the group-bash at every-opportunity.

  103. Jane,

    I make a fabulous Thai Spicy Pumpkin soup. 🙂

  104. I never said these thugs were rocket scientists, Evan.

  105. Yes James, true, you didn’t.

  106. Miglo, thanks for the historical context.

  107. Hey Miglo, I’ve read quite extensively about the cleansing of Chinese people from Victoria’s gold fields during the second half of the 19th century. Curiously, some of the historic media reportage I’ve come across from that time – The Argus, in particular – suggested Chinese and Japanese people were to be feared because they were harder working and more intelligent than us.

    I get the impression Australian history is one of your strengths. So I ask do you think there was an inferiority complex at work in the past? And if you answer yes, Miglo, how much of this effect if any remains and shapes the way we view the ‘other’ and the outside world today?

  108. Why is it every time a person of “color” is attacked, especially by a white person, it is deemed or suggested that it is a racially motivated attack but there are thousands of attacks on white people (by people of “color”) in my country every year without the label ever being used? They are simply deemed assaults? Anybody have a problem with this standard? When did suspected racially motivated violence become a vice of the “Whiteman” only? Thankfully, some here are willing to point out this media/academically pushed distortion by highlighting the hatred of other groups. I can personally attest that growing up in South Glendale was no easy task for a “white-boy” in a heavily dominated Hispanic area. I can assure you most attacks I endured were racially motivated but unfortunately there is simply “no story” when it’s a “white-man” on the receiving end. Of course, most white folks, to include myself, also don’t go running to the first reporter or “special interest group” looking for pity/charity or claiming a race based attack. We learn to fight back and deal with reality instead of obsessing over a “boogey-man” to explain the unexplainable……..

    Australia racist; yes, much like my country that has just elected a man who is half African American… However, had BO not been elected the media/academics would blame it on race of course as we all know that McCain really lost because he is a “white-man”….LOL

  109. No, Sparta, McCain lost because he was a Republican drop-kick.

  110. Ray Hunt, on June 1st, 2009 at 10:53 pm Said:
    “Curiously, some of the historic media reportage I’ve come across from that time – The Argus, in particular – suggested Chinese and Japanese people were to be feared because they were harder working and more intelligent than us.”

    Ray, I’m surprised that you find that curious. I always thought it was a major factor, everywhere.

    Migration, even illegal, is a great selecter I believe.
    Most people around the world are prepared to put up with their lot, but some aren’t, and they use their initiative to do something about it.
    Most will take the opportunity to improve their lot wherever they land and may have a degree of ambition and motivation greater than those they find themselves amongst, who are generally quietly content with the status quo.

    I often feel for the country the migrants left, generally circumstances there are less than desirable, but if that country is to have any hope of going forward, can it afford to lose those people that have the initiative, drive and ability to improve things for themselves and most likely those around them.

  111. I get the impression Australian history is one of your strengths. So I ask do you think there was an inferiority complex at work in the past? And if you answer yes, Miglo, how much of this effect if any remains and shapes the way we view the ‘other’ and the outside world today?

    Good question Ray.

    I’ve logged in for a quick glance at Blogocrats before heading off to work so I cannot ponder over that at the moment.

    I’ll certainly have a bit of a think about it after work and if I can come up with anything solid I’ll answer you.

    Again, a damn good question.

  112. After further consideration of, and reading on, the topic at hand, I would like to alter the meaning of a comment I made earlier:

    “The bashings of Indian students are may or may not be racist acts, carried out by (violent) people who are alleged to be racists.

    However, [T]hey are in no way proof that “Australians have a latent racist streak”, only that there are may or may not be racists among the general population – exactly what proportion this allegedly racist subset comprises – if it exists – is debatable.”

  113. Maybe they could just regard it as a mortgage payment on the country which has been appropriated from the indigenous peoples without a by-your-leave, let alone a cash payment, unless you count infecting them with a host of deadly diseases, poisoning their water supplies and food and denying their very existence as fair payment.

    Were these payments made to people that were 100% Indigenous &/or were still living it tough in th outback – your argument might have merit. When the guy is living next door to you, enjoying all the same benefits you do, and is at best 1/8th indigenous – the argument falls very flat.

    At some point, you have to get over the fact that Australia is no longer the land of the Aboriginals. It is now a land where many cultures work hard to make the nation prosperous. Peoples and lands have been conquered throughout history – Australia is one such land. It is not possible for me to sue you for something your great-great grandparents did to my great-great grandparents after all….

  114. I blame the media, they seem to have lost any moral compass (if they ever had one) in the search for sensational stories …

    … and my Mum, of course, she talked my father into emigrating to this awful land of sunshine, beaches, mountains, forests, deserts, friendly Australians and wonderful opportunities for people of many races and backgrounds who want to work and study – life is what YOU want it to be – not what others try to make it …

    (When I was 12 and a “New Chum” from the Old Dart – I couldn’t understand the “Whinging Poms” – “its too hot”, “there’s nothing to do”, “its like going back in time”, “there’s no real seasons”, “non-one likes us”, “the rain is too heavy”, “the storms are dangerous” – on and bloody on, – some people will never be satisfied…)

  115. Oh! and am I proud to be Australian? Bloody Oath!

    … and am I a parochial Queenslander?

    QUEENSLANDER! GO THE MAROONS!

  116. B.Tolputt, on June 2nd, 2009 at 8:28 am Said:

    It is not possible for me to sue you for something your great-great grandparents did to my great-great grandparents after all….

    So why are the Germans still being sued to this day by the Jews, and why are the Jewa pushing for a holocaust museums to be built in just about every major city in the world so that can never ever be forgotten or allowed to move on?

    Why is the Catholic Church paying for things they did many decades and even centuries ago?

    Why are Maoris being compensated and allowed a greater say because of their conquest than Aboriginals?

    And there are many other examples of displaced and suppressed natives now being recognised and compensated for being displaced and oppressed in the distant past.

    That’s a cop out BT and means that you can go around doing anything you want now because in a few decades or more your successors don’t have to be held to account and reap the rewards of your terrible volitions. The whole idea of there being a future consequence for your actions is what stops most from carrying out terrible acts on peoples.

  117. So why are the Germans still being sued to this day by the Jews, and why are the Jewa pushing for a holocaust museums to be built in just about every major city in the world so that can never ever be forgotten or allowed to move on?

    You & I both know you are trying to muddy the waters here. But let’s, for the sake of argument, pretend you are actually serious in these questions.

    First, please show me a case where Germans are being “sued” for their actions and not “charged with war crimes”. There is a big difference between the two as you well know.

    As for the Jewish not wanting us to forget… who said anything about me desiring we forget about the past? I simply want the nation to get over it. Where I live, we aren’t persecuting the Germans/Japanese for World War 2 nor are there payments between the Turkish & Australians for the killing of ancestors in Gallipoli. We remember, but we aren’t paying out for generations.

    Why is the Catholic Church paying for things they did many decades and even centuries ago?

    Pray tell, what actions are the Catholic Church paying monetary benefits for that they committed centuries ago. The whole “decades” thing is another attempt to blur the line. We settled here over two hundred years ago – let’s keep to that scale shall we.

    Why are Maoris being compensated and allowed a greater say because of their conquest than Aboriginals?

    I would say the same about that situation were it something I was aware of and was affected by it.

    And there are many other examples of displaced and suppressed natives now being recognised and compensated for being displaced and oppressed in the distant past.

    And I don’t agree with all of them either. Just because “other people are doing it”, does not necessarily make it the right thing to do. Some forms of compensation are proper, others are not.

    The whole idea of there being a future consequence for your actions is what stops most from carrying out terrible acts on peoples.

    Yes, and the idea that future consequences should apply to your children’s children’s children is positively Biblical. I made no mention that reparations should never be made… I simply think that we have more than paid for it by now. None, and a I repeat none of the original land-holders are alive now. Neither are their children. If we’re lucky, there are maybe a handful of their children’s children’s children around. All other crimes have a cut-off at which the punishment / retribution is stopped.

  118. B.Tolputt – Deprivation is not something a community can “get over”.

    On this occasion I find your commentary surprisingly shallow.

    The indigenous community has been pretty well abandoned by the rest of Australia, and this is a further example of our latent racism. Grudgingly, we provide some finance and welfare, and then wounder why they don’t just stop complaining.

    Mainstream Australia has never paid attention to these people, never embraced them, and never shown respect to their ancient culture.

    We would never admit that there is anything out society can learn, rather they need to learn from our ways.

    We have the attitude that they need to “get over” it.

    I really think this is particularly disrespectful and narrow minded.

    Unfortunately, I’ll only have limited opportunities to participate today.

  119. So getting over it is not forgetting, how do you reconcile that?

    As to the Germans being sued, you certainly don’t read or follow the news much. Just to a Google or Bing search, but here is just one instance of many where the Jews are sueing the Germans or German industries (like Volkswagen) for compensation.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=708_1185281591

    Some headlines:
    – Shoah Class Action Suit: Children of Holocaust Survivors to Sue
    – Fury over Token Sum: Jewish Groups Call Holocaust Compensation
    – Holocaust children to sue Germany – Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews
    – European Jewish Congress – Poland threatens to sue German …

    …and hundreds more if you look.

    There are many similar actions against the Catholic church for happenings generations old, some that have been settled and some ongoing.

    There are also compensatory and restoration actions being taken in several places around the world against invaders and religious institutions that took or destroyed items of cultural significance to a people or culture they displaced many generations ago.

    On the last point. So when you die and your children’s children die then anyone can come in and take your possessions and land that you left to them? There is an unwritten cut off point I gather, or does this only apply to dispossessed peoples?

  120. Adrian, when does the guilt end? When am I allowed to lift off my shoulders the past sins of white Australia, the Catholic Church (for sexual abuse, the Crusades, and Nazi tolerance), our inherent Australian racism, crimes against women, crimes against gays, and most importantly, crimes against the Earth’s atmosphere.

    I live a pretty non violent life (although I’ve thrown the odd one in footy stoushes), I have never racially vilified anyone (except for the odd thought here and there), I lead a relatively low carbon existence, I love my wife and acknowledge her right to wear the pants, I once shoved and threatened a gay guy to took a shine to my rear end (I did apologise for that, he’s only human after all) and I once called Dad a poof for not wanting to continue a yacht race in inclement weather. But generally, you don’t see me involved in all of these horrors. So when do I get to stop apologising and get on with life? How much do I have to put in dollars wise? You see, I just want to put all these past crimes behind me, repent, rehabilitate, and start afresh. But every time I do, someone raises the ugly spectre of yet another dastardly deed from somewhere in my ancestral history, never mind that those deeds were not considered dastardly at the time.

  121. Daphon, I think this type of article misses the point.

    While we regard insults and disparagement as mainstream and acceptable, the fringe element is closer to the mainstream. It is the fact that these terms are acceptable provides extremists with comfort; their self image is that they are not far removed from the opinion of the average person.

    The fact that we read that these terms are mainstream provides no benefit at all for society.

    Latent racism.

  122. http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/not_all_victims_are_equal/desc/#commentsmore

    Wow, look at this. Another dissenting view posted over at Bolt’s. He must be slipping.

  123. James, I don’t think it is necessarily a matter of guilt. It is a matter of seeking a community which values inclusiveness.

    I don’t think there is a strong sense of inclusiveness in Australia. Our attitudes are often more grudging.

  124. Ray at 10.53pm..I will enjoy reading Miglo also and he is certainly our resident expert history-wise (footy tips leave a bit to be desired tho’). A while ago I put forward that during the mid to late 18th Century that marriages between Chinese men and women of English/Scots/Irish origins was common on the Victorian goldfields. That these men were considered ‘good catches’ being hard working and entrepreneurial eg used finds to establish businesses such as laundries and market gardens.

    This caused resentment..women being a scarce commodity. Also that others had to buy their food from the Chinese who of course were also money lenders.

    At the time I couldn’t access the data as my DVD wasn’t working however here it is and I came across this accidentally via family research. The source is The Victorian Pioneers Index which is births, deaths and marriages 1836-1888 (via BDMs Victoria and so can be relied upon as statistical evidence).

    A common Chinese prenom is Ah*. If I put this in as a search criteria, the Index provides that between the above years there were 332 marriages. If I exclude the surnames of non-Chinese origin, then of these 332 marriages there were 162 marriages between Chinese and non-Chinese.

    If I go to the Federation Index (1889-1901) there are still Chinese marrying (of course), but the thing that stands out is that they are now marrying women of Chinese origins rather than those of English origin.

    Conclusion: jealousy is a major cause of prejudice of all persuations.

  125. “…………invaders and religious institutions that took or destroyed items of cultural significance to a people or culture they displaced many generations ago……….”

    Mobius Ecko, on June 2nd, 2009 at 10:02 am Said:

    Yeh………..The bloody Greeks…………………….have completely lost their Marbles.

    And the Egyptians…………………………..well if you ever go there all they talk about is some piece of stone that the French and the Poms nicked off them.

    It’s called the Rosetta Stone………..!

    They’d like it back as well…………..!

  126. Tom of Melbourne, on June 2nd, 2009 at 10:00 am Said: Mainstream Australia has never paid attention to these people, never embraced them, and never shown respect to their ancient culture.

    And to add to Tom’s comment which is spot on. We can name umpteen native American nations, but how many native Australian nations can we name? That is, most Australians probably know more about another country’s native people than we know about our own.

  127. Mobius re: Why are Maoris being compensated and allowed a greater say because of their conquest than Aboriginals?

    It gets back to Terra Nullius, the land that nobody owned. NZ settlers and the British colonial government recognised that they were dealing with another nation, hence the Treaties.

    However, as Australia was deemed Terra Nullius, you cannot make a treaty with ‘nobody’.

  128. That is the point James, is there an unwritten cut off date and is it very selective depending on which race or group is seeking the reconciliation and compensation?

    So it’s OK for one race to continue to seek massive amounts of compensation in almost perpetuity whilst erecting great monuments and building dozens of large museums around the world so their displacement and oppression can never ever be forgotten, yet another race must just get over it because I’m an upstanding non-racist citizen who just happens to live in country where the dispossession took place way too long ago for me to care, and besides the invaders back then thought that wiping out hundreds or thousands of the natives was a honkey dorey OK thing to do, even though their religion’s number six tenet was “You Shall Not Murder”?

    And the remembrance of the Holocaust doesn’t got to just their genocide but to others as well, but the difference is the Jews are actively stopping other peoples from erecting remembrance monuments or building museums in places they have, as they did a couple of years ago in New York when they successfully lobbied to stop a museum dedicated to an African genocide being built.

    If you were an upstanding German citizen James would you be telling the Jews to get over it and the unspoken cut off date for compensation and reconciliation has passed?

  129. Exactly IATW, just when is this seeking of a return, a reconcilliation, a recognition or a compensation supposed to cut off?

    According to some here there is supposed to be an implicit move on get over it cut off date where you say, “Yeah we know you were done in a long time ago and really got screwed over bad and in turn making us descendents of those who screwed you relatively wealthy, but hey get over it, move on, that was so long ago and I’m now living in a decent suburb, in a nice house, with a family I love earning good money in the country my ancestors took from you, so just don’t bother me or bring up this crap in attempting to lay a guilt trip on me.”

  130. James

    I totally agree in relation to the violence in our society these days.

    Once again I will have my rant on this and get the usual people stating that physical discipline is not the answer.

    As a child if I knew I would be smacked for doing something I stopped and had to decide to either proceed and suffer the consequences or not do the thing I knew was wrong. A smack hurt and stung and was the deterrent. Detention and a good lalking to, did nothing as it reinforced I could get away with things without a stinging smack.

    These days there is no respect for the law or public servancts such as nurses and ambulance. The judges are asses in their judgements and release of people on bail. They permit the villification and verbal abuse of our public servants on a daily basis.

    While I agree that you are innocent until proven guilty, if the charges are severe there should be no bail UNTIL you are cleared of the charges.

    There needs to be accountability as many of these thugs doing the violence are nothing other than gutless bastards who know there will be no recrimination. A wrap over the knuckles form a judge is nothing to these guys, whereas a stint in jail or even a few lashings of a cane might be a deterrent.

    Pain is a very good deterrent.

    These people KNOW it is wrong, There is NO excuse to bash the helpless, homeless or elderly. There is NO excuse to rape and villify. There is NO excuse for violence unless it is in self defence.

    Yet the wanker judges in our legal system seem to think there are measures of justification and excuses. IMHO there is NOT.

  131. shaneinqld, on June 2nd, 2009 at 10:54 am Said:

    I would say that it wasn’t because you got smacked and it hurt was the deterrant but that it was because you knew that being naughty upset your parents.

    Unfortunately you will find that most perpetrators of physical violence were subjected to same as children. They learnt that in order to make people do what they want, that it required inflicting pain onto others. That is, there was the physical but unlike yourself did not have the emotional support of loving families.

  132. The indigenous community has been pretty well abandoned by the rest of Australia, and this is a further example of our latent racism. Grudgingly, we provide some finance and welfare, and then wonder why they don’t just stop complaining.

    I have no problems giving support to people in real need. None whatsoever. I support the welfare programs that give the disadvantaged indigenous (& non-indigenous, for that matter) members of our nation the help they need. It is when the people having a distant indigenous relative living under the same circumstances as the mixed community they live in are worth three times as much support as their non-indigenous neighbours. That is not fair, no matter how you cut it.

    In answer to your unquoted material – I never stated there was nothing to learn from them or that their culture should not be respected. I am simply against paying “guilt money” without limit.

    So getting over it is not forgetting, how do you reconcile that?

    When was the last time you saw an Australian berating a Japanese citizen for the bombing of Darwin? Or perhaps the Prime Minister blasting the Turks for their gunning down of our soldiers in Gallipoli? Yet on ANZAC Day we,as a nation, remember the sacrifices made because of the past generations of these people. Just because we remember something and hold it as an important lesson does not mean that we hold that same thing against the future generations of those that hurt our ancestors.

    Your “all or nothing” attacks are very reminiscent of Andrew Bolt failing to acknowledge middle ground…

    As to the Germans being sued, you certainly don’t read or follow the news much.

    I follow Australian news pretty damn closely. Following the news of other countries where there is no effect on my day to day whatsoever is a luxury of time I cannot afford. I work for a living, funnily enough.

    Just to a Google or Bing search, but here is just one instance of many where the Jews are sueing the Germans or German industries (like Volkswagen) for compensation.

    I did that, and funnily enough, there is more to the story in each one that you fail to mention.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=708_1185281591
    – Shoah Class Action Suit: Children of Holocaust Survivors to Sue
    – Holocaust children to sue Germany – Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews

    Funnily enough, reading the actual stories on these show that there is currently no legal basis on which to sue the nation of Germany. In other words, while the groups would like for Germany as a nation to pay up – the case has no legal foundation on which to make the nation itself pay up.

    – Fury over Token Sum: Jewish Groups Call Holocaust Compensation

    This is about paying for previous settlements. This is not about the children of people subjected to forced labour, but about Germany paying the actual labourers. Sorry buddy – you are again barking up the wrong tree. My issue is not about compensating people directly affected by actions, but paying their descendants in perpetuity.

    – European Jewish Congress – Poland threatens to sue German …

    *laughing out loud* You didn’t even bother to read this article did you? The full title is “Poland threatens to sue German newspaper over ’Polish camps’’” and is about the use of the words “Polish camp” to describe a concentration camp set up by the Germans during the war.

    …and hundreds more if you look.

    Given that not one of the articles you provided was about what we were talking about or had a legal foundation on which to base their claims – I might skip those “hundreds more”.

    Not a good look mate. We were on the same page the other day about Plimer throwing references at his audience in an attempt to bamboozle them. You are doing the exact same, unethical, thing.

  133. I’m an aussie racist, i hate different breeds of fish.

  134. Min

    I agree and disagree.

    I went to a boarding school for 4 years and the deterrent there was the cane. Detention was useless in this school of 400 boys.

    No matter what upbringing we have, 99% of us know full when what is wrong and right. Even if children never attend school they still have the basic concepts of right and wrong. If you ask teenagers after being caught doing something wrong were they aware it was wrong nearly all say yes. When asked why they did it, the usual answer is boredom or “I dunno”.

    I don’ think that the two sons of the millionaire on the Gold Coast who killed a guy were subjected to physical violence when they were young.

  135. But you would cook all of ’em on the barbie Aqua 😉

  136. Shane..well we don’t know about the sons of the millionaire..and there are certainly more ways to be abusive than just physical violence.

    What I found during the days of corporal punishment when I was at school is that the cane was a badge of honor. And not crying, being a whimp even more so.

    As a former (very) primary school teacher, the cane was always the easy option. Smack children, rap them over the knuckles with a ruler or send the child to the Head Masters Office for ‘cuts’.

    Out in the school yard, the child became ‘a hero’..show us your cuts!

    I personally found that laps of the oval far more effective…especially male children who needed to wear off energy after being cooped up in a class room. They were grateful when I would call them in..thank you Miss.

    Even better..make the lessons interesting so that you are far less likely to have wriggly kids looking for mischief.

  137. I’m another who attended 12 years of private schooling with the cane as the major disciplinary measure, and I was a major recipient of it over that time.

    Once got 12 cuts on the upturned hands for getting 12 spelling errors in primary school.

    I’m a non-violent bloody good speller today! And, no, BDSM is the farthest thing from my sexual fantasies or behaviour!

  138. BT – I don’t think the indigenous community is looking for more welfare, or necessarily special treatment. They are looking for more respect and more opportunity, all we give them is more welfare. And then resent it.

    Our history and attitudes are outrageous.

    Mainstream Australians are narrow minded and have a sense of resentment towards the indigenous community and ethnic minorities. This provides comfort to the stupidity of the extreme elements.

  139. MIn

    In those days the children would accept your directive to do laps of the oval. In addition parents would support your decision.

    Today a child would refuse ( more than likely telling you to get stuffed) and if they did do the laps you would be contacted by a parent stating that your punishment was inhumane and their child has suffered physical and emotional trauma over being made a public spectacle at school with everyone seeing them doing laps of the oval. In addition you may have caused an underlying condition to be aggrivated and the child will now need medical assitance. Probably all crap but this is how the system works these days.

    How would you respond ?

  140. B.Tolputt, on June 2nd, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Touche!

  141. Daphon

    Same here I received probably 30 cuts of the cane while at boarding school.

    95% of them I deserved as I was doing the wrong thing.

    I also am a non violent baby boomer who respects other peoples property, privacy and right to peace. I can spell and do mathematics far better than most of those leaving school these days.

  142. Shane..re how would I respond today re laps of the oval should a child have refused. Well, kids moan and groan but 99.9% of kids are good kids and they do it and accept that they’ve been naughty. And most kids quite enjoy doing laps of the oval while perceiving it as a punishment. Much like what we were talking about, that kids do not much enjoy being in the bad books and even if they put on a ‘don’t care’ attitude..most do care.

    However if a rampant parent turned up, then I would say, Are you against physical activity for your child? Case closed..obviously if the parent has not signed a disclaimer that my child should not participate in any physical activity then there is no issue.

  143. Min, on June 2nd, 2009 at 11:25 am Said:
    ‘Out in the school yard, the child became ‘a hero’..show us your cuts!”

    Min, that may be so, but most kids were then content to leave him to being the “hero”.
    That could leave open the possibility that if you can reign in the “hero”, the herd will follow. I know it can work in the workplace. Often the person who seems to be your biggest headache can become your biggest allie if you can win his respect and loyalty.
    But you have to be prepared to run the show perhaps a little bit from the side, and I guess a lot of people are not willing to do that, even if they still would get the bottom line they want.

  144. BT – I don’t think the indigenous community is looking for more welfare, or necessarily special treatment. They are looking for more respect and more opportunity, all we give them is more welfare. And then resent it.

    Then we have no argument. I am all for respecting the culture of all Australians. My major grief with the current system is that the indigenous are treated by both welfare and the law of the land as “special cases”.

    Our history and attitudes are outrageous.

    Mainstream Australians are narrow minded and have a sense of resentment towards the indigenous community and ethnic minorities. This provides comfort to the stupidity of the extreme elements

    Agreed, but it is a side issue from my grievance. The small-mindedness of Australians applies across the ethnic board, not about indigenous people.

  145. The small-mindedness of Australians applies across the ethnic board, not about indigenous people.

    Damn it, that should be –
    The small-mindedness of Australians applies across the ethnic board, not just about indigenous people.

  146. Min, that may be so, but most kids were then content to leave him to being the “hero”…from JohnD

    I suspect that many people see their childhood via rose colored glasses. That the cuts didn’t hurt nearly so much in those days, that children back in those days had more respect for authority..etc.etc.

    Anyway…I suspect that this is not an issue that anyone will agree upon as it relates to our families and our life experiences. For example, hubby is completely against any form of corporal punishment due to his treatment via the nuns.

  147. Welcome to debating Adrian, B Tolputt. Many references of stuff all real meaning in relation to the subject but you have to waste a day checking them all before you can call bullshit on his arguments, then he lists a bunch more of equally irrelevant or misleading references. Either he didn’t read what he linked, or he relied on your unwillingness to dig deeper and check. I’ll give you a tip for future reference, don’t bother. Either his links are from The Guardian or some such predictable propaganda piece, or they bear little relevance to the point being debated at all, but hopefully you don’t check it and see for yourself.

    It works sometimes too, many still believe that Israeli soldiers deliberately targeted civilians in the latest Gaza conflict, or they deliberately bombed ambulances in the previous Lebanon one. Just have sources, they don’t need credibility, just use them anyway. Do it enough, the opposition gets tired of checking, and eventually your false premises get accepted as fact.

  148. Either he didn’t read what he linked, or he relied on your unwillingness to dig deeper and check.

    I’m assuming both. *shrug*

    I’ll debate him on reason & ethics (these do not need supporting “facts”), but I’m not going to be chasing his links again for some time.

  149. However..back on topic. Yes, certainly Australia is racist, but only mildly so compared with other countries. It’s a disappointment that we seem to accept people from other countries far more readily than we accept our own native people.

    The proviso re ‘only mildly’ is our neglect of the needs of our indigenous people. An example might be a township which has not had a garbage collection for 6 months. If this had been a ‘regular’ town then it simply would not have happened. If there were 10 Indian families crammed into a housing commission home would there have been the same outcry? If there were 10 ‘bogan’ families crammed into a housing commission home would there have been the same outcry?

    Conclusion: it’s not a matter of race, it is a matter of social status aka class. Just a thought….

  150. Conclusion: it’s not a matter of race, it is a matter of social status aka class. Just a thought….

    Agreed. Those are abominable circumstances you mention there and no person (regardless of ethnicity) should be forced to live that way.

  151. B.Tolputt, on June 2nd, 2009 at 8:28 am Said:

    “Were these payments made to people that were 100% Indigenous &/or were still living it tough in th outback – your argument might have merit. When the guy is living next door to you, enjoying all the same benefits you do, and is at best 1/8th indigenous – the argument falls very flat.”

    Not so. A better-late-than-never payment to the descendants of the original occupants of the country when the first fleet arrived is still warranted and fair and no different from the descendants of Holocaust victims squeezing Swiss banks for what is rightfully theirs.

    And exactly why should someone living in the city, as opposed to the country, be less worthy of compensation?

    The same goes for one’s ancestors. If your great, great etc grandparent from whatever side of the family has been greatly wronged, why should you not benefit from compensation if available?

  152. I just spoke to an Aboriginal friend and I asked him if he thought that Australians are racists. He said yes.

    I rephrased the question: Have you been a victim of racism?

    Yes.

    Who were the perpetraters?

    White people.

    Have any people of non-European descent ever acted in a racist manner again you?

    No. Only white people.

  153. Migs..when we were up in Cairns, d-in-law was running around making up bottles prior to our going out for lunch. I said, But why..as the bub is breast fed. D-in-law said that she cannot breast feed in public because she is TSI.

  154. Min, WTF!

  155. Exactly Migs.

  156. While I sympathise with Min’s d-in-law (that’s terrible, there is not rational reason for that discrimination!); the fact that an Aboriginal friend of Miglo’s has been treated in a racist manner by only white people is anecdotal and (at best) shows that only white people are racist. As I continually have stated, I believe Australia is made up of many cultures and ethnicities; none more deserving of respect or welfare than any other.

    I, for example, have only ever had my life threatened (multiple times) by people of Lebanese or Turkish descent. I, however, don’t state that most Lebanese / Turkish people are thugs or that they deserve any less respect that others.

    In EVERY ethnicity, you will find examples of despicable behaviour. I doubt anyone on this forum will deny that.

  157. Miglo

    What about the aboriginal man bashed within an inch of his life by Samoans ?

  158. Min, on June 2nd, 2009 at 12:29 pm Said:

    “However..back on topic. Yes, certainly Australia is racist, but only mildly so compared with other countries.”

    Is that including those people who declare themselves non-racists and stand up for people of other races because they feel the people of that race need the help of someone of their own racial background?
    How can those people be classified?
    Are they really non-racist?

  159. johnd

    That is a point that I have been wanting to make. Instead of asking “Is Australia a racist country?” we need to be admitting that racsim exists all over the world. Some places more than others.

    And then we need to ask, what can we do in Australia to lessen the amount of racism?

    Address the cause not the symptom.

  160. Shane,

    He wasn’t the bloke I was speaking to.

  161. I have commented here previously about a chinese family in my home town who were treated as full aussie citizens with the absolute majority shopping in their shop.

    Only to have one of their sons outcast from their family for marrying a local white girl instead of a chinese girl. They still live in town by the way and are loved by all except his family.

    I take exception when it seems to be that its always the white man that is racist. Also when it only ever seems that the racism charge against white people is reported.

  162. Yes BT I did read the articles and the sources were posted as links in the context of what my point was, even if insular you with no time for the rest of the world missed it.

    [i]Thudding palm of hand against forehead.[/i]

    Helicopters…

  163. James back to the pot calling the kettle black and missing the point as always.

    Welcomed to James’s debating. Accuse people of being liars and ignore facts and data when it doesn’t suit him but nit pick on bits he can twist around.

  164. Tol..when in Bangkok in ’75 an elderly Chinese gentleman (not Thai) chased after me with his walking stick muttering things. I turned around to grandfather and bowed and apologised (not certain what I was apologising for, but apologising seemed to be the best option..could have been because I was white, or maybe it was because I was wearing jeans). Anyway..grandfather looked at me, and with a flick of his walking cane, said Well you’re ok girlie.

    A double anyway..the above I think means a little respect and a little knowledge of other cultures goes a long way.

    To me having grown up in Hawthorn Vic..it was for those of British descent my way or the highway..except for the fish and chip shop (Joe the Greek in Glenferrie road..wonderful chap). But mind you..in the same era English companies would not hire Catholics and likewise Catholics would not hire non-Catholics.

  165. Min,

    My mother grew up in Melbourne and I always found it hard to believe it when told me that job ads in the papers actually said things such as, “Catholics need not apply.” I guess that also worked in reverse.

  166. Well Adrian, given that it’s an increasing number who appear to be missing your point, perhaps you need to look a little better at how you express it, because as I said before, rarely does the “evidence” you supply, support what I understand to be your point.

  167. MIn

    Not hiring people of a different religion would not be racism but rather religious ideology, which is rampant in many countries around the world today. Thankfully it is not permitted in Australia although as with it being against the law to discriminate against age when it comes to employment, it still happens on a regular basis for the simple reason it is difficult to prove when nothing is written down.

  168. We no longer have advertisements stating “Catholics need not apply”.

    We do however have job advertisements which state “you must be of Aboriginal or TSI descent”

  169. Australia is not racist. No more or less than other affluent predominantly white countries anyway.

    The issue is that we are in a region where we will always be seen as being created by an European imperialist power that invaded a black indigenous culture. This was followed up by policies that were racists.

    Unfortunately, despite all our recent efforts any episodes that may be seen as isolated intolerance re-enforce the stereotype that other countries have of Australia – an affluent white racist nation.

    I do think that Australia does suffer from Xenophobia, which is different from racism (which is a belief that one race is inherently superior to another). Xenophobia, like any irrational fear can be cured, and for many it has, but you just need some opportunist politicians (we know who they were and are) to stir it up and like dormant malaria up it appears.

  170. I think I am Xenephobic over tattoos.

    I don’t care what colour a person is , but if they are covered in tattoos and I mean more than a little one, and walk in the door, I immediately wonder if they are going to be aggressive. Especially if it says Death or has Skull and Cross bones or a knife as part of the tattoo.

  171. Or is that paranoid ?

  172. Daphon, on June 2nd, 2009 at 2:17 pm Said:
    Min,

    My mother grew up in Melbourne..

    Daphon..I am from Hawthorn, later Lilydale. Hubby is from Clifton Hill and then Wattle Park/Box Hill.

  173. “And then we need to ask, what can we do in Australia to lessen the amount of racism?”

    “Address the cause not the symptom.”

    Joni, that’s a tough question you have put forward and I admire you for attempting to get to the crux of the problem, there is an adherent problem with society as a whole in my opinion and it is getting worse.

    I just can not put my finger on it at this stage but it deserves some thought from all of us as I believe we all harbour prejudices of some kind, although we would like to think we don’t.

    Has anyone got anything to offer to start the conversation as I’m a bit unsettled due to a long lunch and a glass of wine?

  174. Guido – “Australia is not racist. No more or less than other affluent predominantly white countries anyway.”

    Which is fundamentally racist or latent racism. This causes the fringe element to be closer to mainstream attitudes.

    Just own up, mainstream attitudes are ignorant. The fact that we are not as ignorant & racist as some others is hardly reason for us to congratulate one another.

  175. Joni – “And then we need to ask, what can we do in Australia to lessen the amount of racism?
    Address the cause not the symptom.”

    A start would be to stop accepting or excusing offensive terms like “wog”, “lebo”…

    Don’t ignore narrow minded prejudice, and stop excusing ourselves with comments like “we’re no worse than other countries”

  176. I’ll start, Scaper.

    What we have, in Melbourne anyway, is massive and sudden growth in not just the physical population, but in the numbers of different cultures. In an ever decreasing space. All of the infrastructure development and policy decisions encourage (force) more and more people to live more centrally, or in housing estates. Tolerance for cultural differences develop. They are not something that can be applied just because the “enlightened” say so. So we have more and more people getting angrier and angrier, and guess who they take it out on.

    The alternative is to develop a policy of decentralisation. Resettle immigrants/refugees in country areas rather than dump them in Noble Park. Reopen hospitals, schools, banks, community centres in rural areas. Concentrate on the development of local economies rather than central ones.

  177. James of North Melbourne, on June 2nd, 2009 at 3:03 pm Said:
    “The alternative is to develop a policy of decentralisation. Resettle immigrants/refugees in country areas rather than dump them in Noble Park. Reopen hospitals, schools, banks, community centres in rural areas. Concentrate on the development of local economies rather than central ones.”

    Given that it is increasingly difficult to get Australian professionals to relocate from the cities to regional areas, and areas such as Health in these areas are relying increasingly on foreign trained professionals, requiring immigrants to also move there could be construed as racist, could it not?

  178. From my little bit of experience its self belief or to know yourself.
    Something martial arts taugh me with a big part of my life.
    When you have your strenght there is no need to act tough, no need for competition and threats arnt anything till you get hit.

    I have heard the
    ” its hard to spot an aussie”
    “mixed blood not pure”
    “its our land”

    Just like some can follow a religion others can follow a flag(i wonder which one CAN bring on hatred and superiority ).

  179. Do you mean intolerance for cultural differences develop James?

    Though I completely agree with your proposal for decentralisation it will mostly fail on several grounds. Most people whether they emigrate here or have been here for several generations do not want to live a long way from a city. In fact many come here to live in a city just as they move to cities from rural areas in other countries, as happened on a massive scale in China.

    To decentralise you must put in the infrastructure and support to the areas you want people to go to, and no you cannot force them to go there either. If you do that it’s not just migrants you require in these areas but local government, businesses, services and a whole slew of other requirements. History has shown that these are moving towards cities not into rural areas.

    The development of local economies of this type has rarely been successful (though there are some good success stories around) and normally requires an ongoing expensive government subsidy to maintain the local economy.

    Unless there is a unpinning resource of service within the area to sustain employment then it cannot be successful, and the trouble with that is if there is a lucrative resource or service then it’s not migrants or refugees who will be getting the jobs.

    As it is nearly everywhere in the world and as it was when my mum and dad migrated here in the 50’s the first port of call is a major city. To tell migrants they must live in a decentralised area away from a major city will not work, and the ones that do come under that proviso will move to a city as soon as they can or their next generation will.

    I don’t understand your reference to more and more people getting angrier. Why and what is the cause? Living in certain suburbs? Being made to live with diverse people?

    That makes no sense.

  180. Having been born in Melbourne and grown up there in the 50’s..I would say that the solution to racism is time and integration, plus respect.

    If I think of our little street off Glenferrie Road, then it was almost the same as The Time Traveller. One moment it was working class cottages, an ‘old area’. Then the Greeks and other ‘wogs’ moved in causing some consternation as they did things such as planting pumpkins in their front gardens and painting their front doors blue.

    And by the late ’60’s..shrill voices said that Greeks would never integrate because they weren’t the right sort of christian and they sent their children to Greek school. Conclusion: Greeks would never ever assimilate into Australian society.

    However, this issue faded due to the arrival of boat people fleeing the war in Vietnam and the killing fields of Cambodia.

    Once again it was said..these people will never integrate, they are not European and are not any form of christian.

    My late dad’s litmus test was you know when they’ve integrated when your local doctor has a ‘wog’ name and when there are ‘wog’ names on the local footy team. But then my Dad was one of nature’s gentlemen..

  181. Yes BT I did read the articles and the sources were posted as links in the context of what my point was, even if insular you with no time for the rest of the world missed it.

    Quite frankly, Adrian, that is a pile of bullshit & you know it.

    You quoted a headline (with ellipses to finish) that had nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. It had to do with Poland suing a newspaper over a misrepresentation on the ownership/control of a concentration camp.

    It is obvious you simply searched for “sue Germany” (or something similar) and started copy/pasting the results that looked good into your posts without checking them.

    If you DID read them, trying to use the above mentioned article is even more deceptive and unethical than I thought of you.

    Admit you made a mistake and you might restore some dignity. Keep peddling the above story and you are worse than Bolt, who at least is simply selective in the “proof” he uses rather than outright deceptive about the contents of his source.

  182. Aqua..re studying martial arts. Which? Son was Victorian Judo champion..Mr No Korean Olympian was his tutor.

    Very funny when son was bullied..he used to just drop’em, no damage done in fact they used to stand up and say How did you do that.

  183. “I am simply against paying “guilt money” without limit.
    When was the last time you saw an Australian berating a Japanese citizen for the bombing of Darwin? Or perhaps the Prime Minister blasting the Turks for their gunning down of our soldiers in Gallipoli?”

    B.Tolputt, on June 2nd, 2009 at 11:08 am Said:

    B Tolputt
    What a dumb argument !

    The Japanese cannot “unbomb” Darwin can they……………….?

    The Turks cannot “unshoot” Australians who went to War against them in 1914 can they…………?

    Nothing can undo that.

    But when it comes to property theft…………well then……

    International Courts could “unloot” a lot of Jewish families who had priceless pieces of Art looted from them in WW2. In fact Art galleries the World over hold those pieces of Art.

    International Courts could also “unrob” Jews whose other property was stolen and sold and the proceeds of which remain within the vaults of the highly distasteful and shameful Swiss Banking system.

    I don’t recall anyone ever declaring War against the Aborigines…..!

    B. Tolputt, you to this very day benefit from the theft of the Aboriginal way of life. So you should be doing whatever you can to compensate the following generations to an extent sufficient to ensure the survival of their Race.

  184. wing chung ,16 yrs
    instructor, Jimmy fung

    when i was younger i was a brat, i knew how to fight but i was dumb as, im suprised i survived . It all worked out or my head is so full of saltwater it just seems that way.

  185. To those who have responded, Federal and State governments have for years now through legislation and the withdrawal of services, forced the population to move to cities for employment, schools, healthcare, you name it. Recent legislation has gone through in South Gippsland preventing building on less than (I think) 100 acres. Why? Because supermarkets and milk supply companies want it that way. Centralisation. There is an active withdrawal of services from rural areas which drives this change as well. What I am advocating is that this withdrawal of services ceases. That will, to some extent, stop the shift. Allow retirees to run hobby farms, or local traders whatever. This will decentralise the population a bit. Once the population is decentralised, the other services will follow.

    Many people don’t want to live in the City. But they are forced to. I don’t know a single Somalian or Sudanese refugee but I’d be willing to bet that many of them would far prefer to live away from the cities and to run small farms. After all, that’s what many did before the wars broke out.

  186. And further International Courts could “unrob” the Greeks of the Elgin Marbles.

    And seriously if you have ever been to the London Museum…..well I dont have to tell you why the Egyptians are so rightly pissed off with the English.

    And this is the sort of stuff that can be “undone” at least to some extent.

    Why do the English need the Rosetta Stone yet the Egyptians have to put up with a cheap copy…?

  187. Interesting James.

    I wonder what happened to the big push in Victoria and NSW (was it the 70s ?) to decentralise the capital cities and build large city centres in the country such as it in the USA. Albury-Wodonga was the start of it, but the whole thing just fizzled away.
    I guess the govts balked at the cost of infrastructure such as trains for one thing.

    I would love to move to a country town, but now have too many medical problems to do that. Even living on the western fringe of Sydney is a problem in that regard (as far as the govt is concerned NSW ends at Parramatta-Westmead).

  188. James of North Melbourne, on June 2nd, 2009 at 4:10 pm Said:
    “Many people don’t want to live in the City. But they are forced to. I don’t know a single Somalian or Sudanese refugee but I’d be willing to bet that many of them would far prefer to live away from the cities and to run small farms. ”

    About 100 Sudanese were resettled in Warrnambool, many work at the local meatworks, another field difficult to get Australians to work in.

  189. Yet Aqua, it still teaches concentration and discipline. I would recommend this to any parent whose doctor wants to put them on Ritalin..firstly try judo, other martial arts classes or gymnastics as these require concentration and discipline. But most importantly take the child to have their hearing and eyesight tested (and not just in a doctor’s surgery). Was talking about this a while back with my hearing specialist and he said that at his estimate at least 40% of children referred to him had been previously misdiagnosed by GPs as ADHD.

    Re being a brat..sometimes it’s all to do with the teacher. Son’s primary school teacher was Peter Cameron AFL umpire..and a wonderful teacher who knew how to inspire.

  190. They’ve withdrawn train services. They’ve closed schools, hospitals etc. The country is becoming the sole domain of the millionaire landowners, with the odd token factory in the odd town.

  191. Then we have no argument. I am all for respecting the culture of all Australians. My major grief with the current system is that the indigenous are treated by both welfare and the law of the land as “special cases”.

    It would not have to be the case if our history of institutionalised racism didn’t exist. Institutions and services in this country have historically empowered and served the interests of the dominant white culture and minority groups are demeaned and discriminated against within those systems. Oftentimes the racism is so subtle and so entrenched that those who work within the systems unknowingly reinforce the oppression of minority groups.

    If minorities were treated equally in the system there would be no need for ‘special’ interventionist programs and services aimed at addressing and correcting the deficits of minority cultures.

  192. Daphon, on June 2nd, 2009 at 4:19 pm Said:
    “I would love to move to a country town, but now have too many medical problems to do that.”

    Perhaps you should check out some regional areas for health services. Beds are always available in some areas, and generally easy to see a Doctor, Dentist might have to wait longer though. But the locals like to keep these secrets to themselves.

  193. James

    Many sudanese were resettled in Tamworth.

    I agree with you, it was the governments of the day removing services, closing rail lines, centralising their offices in cities in the name of rationalisation.

    Problem is centralisation of services also forces centralisation of the population who must follow along with industry.

    Previous politicians of years ago had vision. Just look at Canberra, nothing there before a decision was made to make it a capital. Otherwise all those poeple and jobs and industry would be in Sydney or Melbourne. While canberra is full of politicians the amount of industry created as a result of canberra cannot be underestimated.

    Why not move the taxation office to a country area

    The centrelink head quarters to a country area

    etc etc. they don’t all need to be in one location.

    In addition bombing of Canberra by an enemy would destroy almost every aspect of our government in one swoop. Some may think that would be a good idea, but I hope you get my drift.

  194. Otherwise all those poeple and jobs ……………

    shaneinqld, on June 2nd, 2009 at 4:30 pm Said:

    Shane…………………….”Jobs” dont exist in Canberra……………..only “Positions” do.

    “Jobs” imply creativity and productivity

    “Positions” implies lounging about…. twiddling thumbs etc etc etc until 5pm when its time to collect your taxpayer funded pay and piss off home.

    Isn’t that right………..Tom ?

  195. kitty

    Can you give me an example today where minorities are not treated equally within our institutions.

  196. International Courts could “unloot” a lot of Jewish families…
    International Courts could also “unrob” Jews…

    Yet it is impossible to give the land back to the people we actually took it off. The International Court has yet to give back land illegally settled on by Zionist Jews – and that is occurring today. You are talking about money and physical goods – we are talking about land settled two hundred years ago. Show me a case the International Court is dealing with two hundred years old and I’ll concede your point.

    B. Tolputt, you to this very day benefit from the theft of the Aboriginal way of life. So you should be doing whatever you can to compensate the following generations to an extent sufficient to ensure the survival of their Race.

    Missed the point entirely. Were I paying to help them keep their traditional way of life – I’d not be having this problem. Were it being paid only to those directly disadvantaged by us taking their land – I’d not have a leg to stand on. Unfortunately, we are paying it to people living in the same town, with the same advantages & opportunities as non-indigenous people, who just happen to have an Aboriginal ancestor.

    To use your analogy, that would be like someone having a Jewish great-grandparent suing Germany one hundred & forty years from now. Sorry but that boat doesn’t float. Thanks to Adrian’s problematic headlines – you too can read how there are no legal legs to even the children of Holocaust survivors suing Germany. If the immediate descendants cannot do it – why are we still doing it five generations on?

  197. James, decentralisation has been an issue that I have been advocating as the mainstay for that other thing that I mentioned at Meganomics last weekend on the Murray thread but I won’t bother pursuing that here as I’m tired of the attacks, I’m copping enough from another quarter as a result of my actions as it is.

    One thing that stuck in my mind was a filler on the History channel concerning the communities that sprung up during the Snowy Mountains Scheme.

    It involved the schools that many workers kids of all nationalities attended which created an understanding and most of all, tolerance towards each other’s cultural differences.

    I’m most probably clutching at straws at the moment but teaching tolerance has somehow disappeared from our education system or has it morphed into something through multiculturalism that is isolating our various cultures?

  198. B. Tolputt…………………………..you are really skirting this…………….the Aborigines dont claim to “own” the Land……………..you just say they do.

    The black……….half white……..one eighth white mixed with some Greek blood is a totally seperate identification argument.

    But if that bugs you so much why not fix up the obvious “Blackies” out in the middle of the desert. Then we can sort out who is deserving after we have fixed them up first.

    Oh sorry…………………did you say something about your Grandfather’s taxes having already paid for that…..?

  199. JohnD,

    Once you’ve had a diagnosis of cancer, you realise the major treatment options are the city and nearby areas at least in NSW. My ‘local’ hosptial, an hour away, has charity-provided accomodation nearby for country folk.

    My experiences are taxing enough, but a friend, as an example, had to drive from Ballina to Brisbane every day for radiation therapy.

  200. Shane..I hope that you don’t mind me chipping in here but re shaneinqld, on June 2nd, 2009 at 4:39 pm Said:
    kitty

    Can you give me an example today where minorities are not treated equally within our institutions.

    My example would be country kids wanting to attend university. I should imagine that country kids come under the definition of being a minority.

    Unlike city kids, country kids cannot live at home while attending university..the factor being distance. And yet there is the same criteria re Austudy, parental income. The wealthy irrespective of living in the city or in country can afford to send their children to university..and in fact can afford to pay upfront fees thus avoiding HECS.

  201. Daphon…I’ve been on the waiting list for Tweed hospital for over 5 years re (would you believe it) wisdom teeth. One lies horizonal to the bone and the other is growing from the sinus cavity. When we were living at Billinudgel I just kept being shoved down the bottom of the waiting list as I was ‘out of the area’.

    A bugger of a drive from Ballina to Bris..running the gauntlet of the truckie road trains.

  202. Min

    You can chip in anytime and always welcome

    I agree they would be a minority, but if it is the same criteria being applied to all kids I don’t think that it can be defined as a minority not being treated equally but rather an unfortunate locality issue for country kids.

  203. And Shane, that is precisely it. What does a minority group make? It’s a matter of disadvantage. For example, one might be treated ‘equally’..as long as you have several grand for up front fees. You might have equal access to health care, as long as you can afford private health insurance.

  204. shaneinqld

    In the hospital setting, I know of a muslim woman whose daughter was being admitted. The woman had requested that she be placed in a room with other woman so that she could relax and show her face by removing the hijab which custom dictated that she must wear if a male is present. She was admitted into a four bed bay where three fathers were caring for their kids. She was the only woman in the room!

    It is widely acknowledged that the scientific or biomedical model of healthcare has a history of entrenched institutional racism which serves to empower the health professionals. The system rejects the knowledge, customs and beliefs of minority cultures as inferior and less rational or logical.

    I should also say that ‘equality’ is not the best way to respect minority groups these days, as there is an underlying assumption made that by treating everybody the same no one is disadvantaged.

    What we should be moving to is the concept of ‘cultural safety’ where individual cultural differences are respected. It is about the empowerment of people to not be treated the same as everybody else.

  205. @Walrus:

    you are really skirting this…the Aborigines dont claim to “own” the Land…you just say they do.

    Wow, you have a penchant for putting words in my mouth don’t you? Point to the post where I claimed the Indigneous “own the land”.

    The black……….half white……..one eighth white mixed with some Greek blood is a totally seperate identification argument.

    Yet, it is a large part of my argument – you will note I have mentioned it a few times. If we are supposedly compensating them for lost culture &/or loss of their land – why are people with only marginal ancestory in indigenous ethnicity receiving “full benefits”?

    But if that bugs you so much why not fix up the obvious “Blackies” out in the middle of the desert. Then we can sort out who is deserving after we have fixed them up first.

    Not sure exactly what you are getting at there. My grievance is not with the indigneous themselves but with how the government creates “blanket solutions” such as welfare payment increases and compulsory “acknowledgement” every time there is a public event. These not only fail to fix the issue, but breed resentment in people who would otherwise be fine with helping out the less fortunate.

    Oh sorry…did you say something about your Grandfather’s taxes having already paid for that…?

    Nope. That would be the imaginary B.Tolputt that you argue with sometimes. The one in the real world (i.e. me) seems to differ somewhat from your fantasy friend.

  206. Well said Kittylitter (as always).

    Why do I always find myself in agreement with your wise words…

  207. My example would be country kids wanting to attend university. I should imagine that country kids come under the definition of being a minority.

    Unlike city kids, country kids cannot live at home while attending university..the factor being distance. And yet there is the same criteria re Austudy, parental income. The wealthy irrespective of living in the city or in country can afford to send their children to university..and in fact can afford to pay upfront fees thus avoiding HECS.

    YES!!!! Praise the gods someone gets it! It shouldn’t matter what ethnic background you have, so long as you are equally disadvantaged – you should get an equal leg-up.

    For the record, I had to pay my own way when attending University and only recently finished paying off the HECS debt… I was not a “country kid” but was travelling two hours each way along a train line which I was mugged on twice (having my laptop stolen once – which was devastating given my income as a night shift shelf-packer).

  208. “………..Yet it is impossible to give the land back to the people we actually took it off………………..”
    B.Tolputt, on June 2nd, 2009 at 4:42 pm Said

    Is that good enough for you…………or I suppose I’ve read that completely out of context too.

  209. Is that good enough for you…………or I suppose I’ve read that completely out of context too.

    Yes, you did indeed read it out of context. We have deprived the indigenous people the use of the land. That would be “taking it off them” would it not?

    I need not “own” something for it to be taken from me. Say, for example, a company car. I don’t own it and yet if I were fired or my contract changed – it could be “taken off me”.

    Easy mistake to make, but I most definitely did not state “the Aboriginals claim to own the land” (your words).

  210. In fact – your quote is the closest I have come to talking about the land & the indigenous people’s use of it.

  211. “Not sure exactly what you are getting at there. ”
    B.Tolputt, on June 2nd, 2009 at 5:54 pm Said:

    Well aint that convenient……………………so we go back to letting them fend for themselves since your Grand Dad probably paid enough in taxes 30 years ago to help em out.

    If they are still having problems well that’s no concern of yours is it.

    But gee it’s good to live here rather than Europe. Good on Mother England for the invasion back in 1788. Otherwise you might be growing potatoes on your old Grand Dads farm in County Clare Ireland or something similar.

  212. “…………Were it being paid only to those directly disadvantaged by us taking their land…………….”

    B Tolputt……………..quote/unquote again from you above.

    I suppose in this case “their” also does not imply ownership either……………?

    You have a really strange dictionary……!

  213. Well aint that convenient……………………so we go back to letting them fend for themselves since your Grand Dad probably paid enough in taxes 30 years ago to help em out.

    If they are still having problems well that’s no concern of yours is it.

    Your fighting with that imaginary B.Tolputt again, Walrus. I simply didn’t know exactly what you meant by “so why not fix up the obvious “Blackies” out in the middle of the desert“. Fix them up how exactly? And for the record, I’d never be calling the indigenous people ‘Blackies’ – I’m hoping you were being ironic.

    If you actually read my posts – you will note that I am all for supporting the disadvantaged living out in the indigenous communities. Let me repeat, just for you, I support helping all disadvantaged people regardless of ethnicity based on their circumstances (not those of their ancestors two generations back).

    But gee it’s good to live here rather than Europe. Good on Mother England for the invasion back in 1788. Otherwise you might be growing potatoes on your old Grand Dads farm in County Clare Ireland or something similar.

    Yes, good ole Ireland (not my ancestory, but still nice). What we need are some activists over there making England pay for the use of their land and the wars they fought for centuries… After all, we’re applying universal principles right?

  214. Tol.. daughter E did not qualify for Austudy as father earned too much money..not a lot, just too much. It meant having to support 2 households. I am certain that she lived on those 51cent noddles, even though she always insisted that she was fine.

    For those who have heard it before, just close your eyes. Here she is (her PhD Supervisor Ben Hankamer), only 18 months to go on her PhD and has done it all herself minus a driver’s licence (doesn’t drive due to her eyesight) …extraction of hydrogen from algae re biofuels. Excellent results working with the Germans who are the leaders in the field. http://www.imb.uq.edu.au/index.html?id=11700

    Re praise the gods, somebody gets it. Does this mean that I get a squishy hug??

  215. B. Tolputt

    Just face it…………..you dont want to pay anymore because their are too many half castes runnin’ around claiming to be Abos.

    But you are happy to benefit from the English occupation whils the Aboriginal Race whithers on the vine.

    Go on………………just say it.

    No one will think any less of you…………!

  216. Were it being paid only to those directly disadvantaged by us taking their land

    Read my post above, Walrus, you are trying to apply a specific, singular deinfition (that you prefer) to an ambiguous term.

    I suppose in this case “their” also does not imply ownership either…?

    You have a really strange dictionary!</blockquote
    Miriam-Webster's Dictionary:
    their:
    1 : of or relating to them or themselves especially as possessors, agents, or objects of an action {their furniture} {their verses} {their being seen}

    Note that the definition is not “exclusively” as possessors, but also as agents of something and/or objects of an action.

    Where I live is currently rented. When other’s reference it as “their home”, they are not claiming we own it. English is not a mathematically precise language. Deal with it.

  217. Let me try that again….

    Were it being paid only to those directly disadvantaged by us taking their land

    Read my post above, Walrus, you are trying to apply a specific, singular deinfition (that you prefer) to an ambiguous term.

    I suppose in this case “their” also does not imply ownership either…?

    You have a really strange dictionary!</blockquote
    Miriam-Webster's Dictionary:
    their:
    1 : of or relating to them or themselves especially as possessors, agents, or objects of an action {their furniture} {their verses} {their being seen}

    Note that the definition is not “exclusively” as possessors, but also as agents of something and/or objects of an action.

    Where I live is currently rented. When other’s reference it as “their home”, they are not claiming we own it. English is not a mathematically precise language. Deal with it.

  218. Well, looks like I’m being blocked. For the record, Min, if you want a squishy hug : you’ve got one. So far, your the only one that seems to get the problem I have with the current welfare arrangements.

    Which is funny given how opposed we were the last time the race issue came up!

  219. Walrus, I can’t post long posts anymore… being blocked. But stop thinking about your imaginary B.Tolputt. Actually read my posts without your “aggravated persona” glasses on.

  220. Min, thanks for the link and historical overview. I’ll check it out.

  221. Shane – “Can you give me an example today where minorities are not treated equally within our institutions.”

    Do you think the police treat ethnic minorities and indigenous people as they treat white people? I don’t think anyone would suggest this.

    Does the government funded arts community pay the same respect to indigenous art? The brown nosing, tax leaching artistic community fawn over the European arts and show no interest in indigenous art.

    Do educational institutions support indigenous cultural development at the under graduate (and post graduate) level the way they support the Anglo Saxon version?

  222. Tom of Melbourne, on June 2nd, 2009 at 8:32 pm Said:

    Do educational institutions support indigenous cultural development at the under graduate (and post graduate) level the way they support the Anglo Saxon version?

    The simple answer is NO. The question then becomes – should they? Should educational institutions at the undergraduate and post graduate levels decide what to offer or provide or should they respond to the ‘market’, broadly defined?

  223. Hello Ray,

    I’ve was thinking about your question about colonial Australians having an inferiority complex. Then I came across this in Aqua’s post at 3:21 pm today:

    When you have your strenght there is no need to act tough

    It summed it up in my view – it’s called the “little man syndrome”.

    Colonial Australia had a collective “little man syndrome”.

  224. “But when it comes to property theft…………well then……”

    Why are some still peddling such logic? What sense does it make to hack a civilization out of the bush without the benefit of a welfare state etcetera and then spend the rest of eternity feeling bad about it or making future generations pay for it? While at the same time “importing” millions more onto “stolen” lands in the name of multiculturalism? Anybody clear this “multicultural” thing with the Aboriginals first? So how far back in history is sufficient to guilt future generations for the actions of their ancestors? Perhaps we can have the ancestors of penal colonies sue the Brits for sending them in the first place? I mean the concept of “theft” when building a nation is ridiculous. I have nothing but sympathy for the plight of Aboriginal, but not out of some notion of “theft”. I simply see a “traditional” people trying to find a place in this modern world; a people who would benefit greatly minus so many guilt ridden “do-gooder” white folks telling them what needs to be done, how, when, where and why! When you get down to it, people make their own decisions in life and blaming others for our situation doesn’t change one’s circumstances.

    I have a suggestion for the Aboriginal who wants a quick ticket out of the 3rd world conditions most of them find themselves living in within Australia’s borders, just claim asylum. You will get safety, health care, job placement and a modern living facility. Hell the Australian government will even teach you a skill……..Now that is pathetic………

  225. Hello Sparta.

    What you have said will get a nod of approval from 99% of white Australians. Unfortunately, those 99% represent the ignorant mass in this country.

    The rest of us – the white do-gooders – will just ignore your comments.

  226. Let’s face it all ‘groups’ are ‘ethnocentric’ to a greater or lesser degree, in the sense that they have:

    the tendency to look at the world primarily from the perspective of one’s own culture

    Yes viewing the world through an ethnocentric prism is inescapable and is indeed at the core of the educational and socialisation processes. That realisation is essential if one is to escape, in part at least, the limitations of one’s background which should also be part of a good education.

    The reality of ethnocentrism makes it impossible therefore to value all cultures equally, except in a very theoretical sense, because the means of evaluation are rooted in a particular culture. A ‘culture free’ evaluation of another culture is a nonsense but that doesn’t make the endeavour a waste of time.

  227. Nature 5 – spot on.

  228. “The rest of us – the white do-gooders – will just ignore your comments.”

    Sorry Miglo, I tend to believe the Aboriginals are neither children, nor the intellectual infants they are treated as…. Continue to suckle though if it gives your life meaning……I was under the impression they were a proud independent people that might better find themselves without the “white do-gooders” telling them what that “self” is or represents. The do-gooders sure have done a bang up job thus far, wouldn’t you say?……Seems they were much better off as a people without the advent of modern conveniences, healthcare, welfare payments etcetera but what do I know, I am just one of the “mass”. You’re one of the “enlightened” and I am sure then next bit of government “meddling/failure” will validate this self inflated image……LOL…..

  229. Sparta, just a note. The people in question are Aborigines (plural) or Aborigine (singular). The adjectival form is Aboriginal. Just sayin ..

  230. Miglo….

    My apologies….Hello to you mate…..Fine morning here in Baltimore, Maryland……

  231. Nature 5,

    Dually noted……

  232. Sparta – try ‘duly noted’. Just sayin ..

  233. “A ‘culture free’ evaluation of another culture is a nonsense but that doesn’t make the endeavour a waste of time.”

    No, not a “total” waste of time but certainly of tax payer funds; the one thing government is highly efficient at doing…….LOL…

  234. Hi Sparta,

    You’re starting to make a bit of sense. My patience with you has finally been rewarded 🙂

    I guess that none of us are really in a position to say what is right, or what is best. I’ve heard a hundred different stories from Indigenous Australians as to what should have happened, or could have happened, or what might have happened, what would have been better or what would have been worse.

    I gain some comfort from a very close friend that all has worked out well wen admitted to me that:

    I’m glad the white fella come here. Without the white fella I would never have got to play footy or cricket

    As a do-gooder, it make sme feel warm and fuzzy.

    I don’t know what the weather is like here. Each morning I hop in the car from the internal access garage, drive to work where I park in the basement of our building and catch the lift to my floor.

    If I want to see what the weather is like I’ll gaze out the window to see what people are wearing. By the looks of them I think it’s been cold, but I’m not too sure.

    Allow me a few moments while I walk outside to check it out. . . . .

    . . . . it’s effing cold.

  235. Do you think the small person syndrome still applies Miglo?

  236. Nature 5….

    Sigh…..just trying to be “cute” mate…..Have a drink already….When did “blogging” become a grammatical endeavor anyway? Just saying…….

    wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

  237. I’m just wondering if this is a racist thread?

  238. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA, on June 2nd, 2009 at 10:27 pm Said:

    Oh dear, who mentioned anything about government funds? I see my post has gone through to the keeper.

    Then again, one has some control over what one writes but absolutely no control over the ‘meaning’ the reader attributes.

    Seems to me Sparta, you have a problem with ‘government’ regardless of political colour, preferring instead to imagine and then create your own reality. Not a social construction of reality, just an individual one.

    Bet you get mugged by reality on a daily basis, and then again, I suppose you wonder why.

  239. Sparta, there are two types of Aborigines in Australia. There are Aborigines, and there are a minority who live in the cities and have a chip on their shoulder. They are what Aborigines call “city Abos”, and in the words of an Adnyamathanha friend: “They know jack shit”.

    They haven’t been the victims of racism to the same extreme that most Aborigines have been subject to. They live in nice houses and have good jobs, yet scream that the white fella owes them something. They hate white people with a passion. Most Aborigines don’t dislike white people.

    Actually, they are the ones that do all the screaming. They are the ones that get books published, that get articles in the printed media, that governments engage in policy discussion.

    This is why, in the past, I have dicredited the articles you have recommended.

    Your willingness to learn of Indigenous Australia is flattering, however.

  240. Another good question Ray.

    I’m more of an historian than a sociologist so I don’t want to stick my neck out too far.

    But . . . now that you’ve mentioned it . . . yes.

  241. Apologies Sparta. Quite clever with the ‘dually’.

  242. “I’m just wondering if this is a racist thread?”

    Now that is funny…..Sadly, in some “enlightened” circles having such a discussion would be deemed as such while at the same time, oddly, inadvertently advocating that some people cannot function on their own in society because of their racial background is not? Only in academic circles does such hypocrisy make sense………..LOL….

  243. I’m just wondering if this is a racist thread?

    No James, it isn’t. Youll have to go elsewhere.

  244. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA, on June 2nd, 2009 at 10:47 pm Said:

    cannot function on their own in society

    The evidence is clear. The power realtionships within Australian society serve to disadvantage Aboriginal people, generally speaking. Or do you have other evidence? If so please provide same.

    Or are you conflating the ‘is’ with the ‘ought’?

  245. “Seems to me Sparta, you have a problem with ‘government’ regardless of political colour, preferring instead to imagine and then create your own reality. Not a social construction of reality, just an individual one.”

    Yes, you got me pegged correctly there…..Although I tend to be in favor of less government in most cases due to the repeated examples of failure (the reality you see as giving me a mugging) I also acknowledge its fundamental and crucial role…..It is simply inefficient on most accounts and usually fails miserably when straying from its fundamental role. Good grief mate, look at those who are representing us on either side of the pond for example! The requirement to govern is getting elected a.k.a. “selling” yourself. We are not talking about brilliant people here……We in essence of have a bunch of “car salesman” and ideologues blindly making policy. Are you saying government isn’t rife with waste? I hardly think my “reality” is simply a personal one……..My reality is an American one however, for all I know most in Australia may see government as a beacon of productivity, until their “retirement” or healthcare is threatened anyway……..

  246. “Your willingness to learn of Indigenous Australia is flattering, however.”

    I have a soft spot for you Aussies, all Aussies………To really understand the Australian experience one must do so from the beginning………..Your geographical isolation and historically small population (which you guys are hell bent on changing) has helped weave a common thread with your indigenous population unlike any other modern country. I find this relationship fascinating………

  247. I tend to be in favor of less government in most cases due to the repeated examples of failure

    While government ‘fails’ from time to time, so does the ‘market’ as is evidenced by this current mess. While the US leads the world in so many areas, it now adds to that record.

    when straying from its fundamental role.

    Which is? And yes I think I can guess the answer. Something along the lines of ‘small is beautiful’.

    ideologues blindly making policy

    How can one make policy without an ideology? That’s simply a nonsense with all due respects.

    My reality is an American one

    really? Are you seriously suggesting that everyone in the US thinks the way you do? Including YOUR President? Not in my experience.

    until their “retirement” or healthcare is threatened anyway

    Sparta, that’s an important and significant difference between Australia and the US. The notion that good ‘healthcare’ is, by and large, dependent on ‘companies’ and their financial health is abhorrent.

    In Australia we , generally speaking, see health care as a responsibility of government not individual companies which can, and do, go broke as is evidenced by GM.

    I won’t go into how the average American, by being held hostage to individual companies. has lost their power in so many social policy areas.

  248. “The evidence is clear.”

    Really, perhaps you could provide some then?

    We have this really small minority here in my country. They come here with nothing and flourish for the most part without any assistance for the most part. They deal with “racism” mainly at the hands of other minorities etcetera but yet they flourish. Strangely, when discussions such as this are brought up here they never get a mention as they tend to fly in the face of most of the academic dogma that is routinely peddled…..

  249. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA, on June 2nd, 2009 at 11:26 pm Said:

    Sparta, a quick Google perhaps? Health. Education . Income, Life Expectancy. and the like. It’s a bit like asking ‘Is the Pope a Catholic’?

    As for:

    have this really small minority here in my country … come here with nothing and yet they flourish

    Noticed that re the incarceration rates. Then again, I suppose it keeps them off the streets and off the unemployment lines.

    As for:

    they tend to fly in the face of most of the academic dogma that is routinely peddled…..

    ‘academic dogma’. Right.

    Not only anti-government but also anti-intellectual. So much transparency in so little time.

    I must admit it’s not typical of the Americans I’ve met in my travels. But then again most people who travel (eventually) rise above that nonsense.

  250. “While government ‘fails’ from time to time, so does the ‘market’”

    Who was discussing economic models?

    “While the US leads the world in so many areas, it now adds to that record.”

    Yes but then there are the millions brought out of poverty via this failure (China, India etcetera)….What do you think globalism is mate? It is welfare on a grand scale, surely you know this? Anyhow, who is the bigger idiot, the idiot or those who follow the idiot?

    “Which is? And yes I think I can guess the answer. Something along the lines of ’small is beautiful’.”

    No, something about providing protection, upholding are personal liberties and rights, infrastructure etcetera…Not sure how buying stock in private companies, or telling me what I should drive, eat, buy has anything to do with the fundamentals. Nor demanding I fund “failing and unsustainable” social projects. The list of flops is long as you know, circumventing this reality gives some insight into your personal reality now…….

    “How can one make policy without an ideology? That’s simply a nonsense with all due respects.”

    I would stress the “blindly” aspect of that statement……Hardly nonsense, with all due respect……Unless you can drive with your eyes closed?

    “really? Are you seriously suggesting that everyone in the US thinks the way you do? Including YOUR President? Not in my experience.”

    No, never said that but somewhere around 50% of the electorate for sure…..a mere 48-50 million…More than twice the entire population of Australia………

    “In Australia we , generally speaking, see health care as a responsibility of government not individual companies which can, and do, go broke as is evidenced by GM.”

    Are you suggesting Governments or programs they run do not go broke? Perhaps you can explain the Canadian experience which is slowly becoming the Australian experience? I simply don’t see why any individual should provide healthcare for those who eat too much, drink too much or simply refuse to take care of themselves…….Healthy people live longer, the work longer, they pay in longer……You guys just keep funding the fast food lifestyle as your doing, it will go broke………

    “I won’t go into how the average American, by being held hostage to individual companies. has lost their power in so many social policy areas.”

    Were being held hostage by lawyers and frivolous lawsuits which even BO acknowledges as the biggest driver of increased health care costs, not companies…..

  251. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA, on June 2nd, 2009 at 11:56 pm Said

    No, something about providing protection, upholding are personal liberties and rights, infrastructure etcetera

    Sparta, why can’t each individual do that for themselves? After all you have the ‘right to bear arms’. Can I hazard a guess. I bet you own a gun or perhaps several? And the ‘common sense’ is that because everyone can and does protect themselves, then we are more secure. Really?

    Ever looked at the death rate due to guns in the US compared with the rest of the world. I know. Refused to be mugged by reality.

    As for:

    Are you suggesting Governments or programs they run do not go broke?

    Haven’t had a failure in that area. Certainly a lack of funding. But nothing like the collapse of GM and its funding ‘guarantee’ for health care.

    FGS it’s like a third world country – at least for the uninsured.

    As for:

    Were being held hostage by lawyers and frivolous lawsuits which even BO acknowledges as the biggest driver of increased health care costs

    That’s not the case here in Australia. That’s your problem and from our perspective you deserve to be swamped because of you emphasis on ‘individualism’. Talk about an ethnocentric view of the world.

  252. “Sparta, a quick Google perhaps? Health. Education . Income, Life Expectancy. and the like. It’s a bit like asking ‘Is the Pope a Catholic’?”

    Now that is simplistic…..Hardly evidence of racism mate, with all apologies……Stats show trends and can be interpreted in numerous ways. One could simply say some value education more. Some take care of themselves better and hence better health/life expectancy…..No, it’s a bit like trying to provide “real” evidence, which you can’t as we both know……Again, more academic dogma…….

    “Noticed that re the incarceration rates. Then again, I suppose it keeps them off the streets and off the unemployment lines.”

    Have no idea what you’re on about here……..

    “Not only anti-government but also anti-intellectual. So much transparency in so little time.”

    Mate, I am trying to be cordial but really, do you consider your argument “intelligent”; Google for evidence of racism, seriously? Not anti-government “intellectual”, simply not a big fan……..

    “I must admit it’s not typical of the Americans I’ve met in my travels. But then again most people who travel (eventually) rise above that nonsense.”

    Well considering we are a country of over 300 million, I doubt you have a clear understanding of the American experience…Besides, the world has come to us…..Try moving inland away from the coast for starters…LOL……I must admit, I find the “you haven’t traveled” line amusing. How do you know I haven’t traveled? Because I disagree with your “formerly drug induced” reality? Given past statements you have made, when you were 17 you were smoking dope around a camp fire, expanding your “mind”. I was living in South Korea and Japan? Give me a break. Some of us walk away from our travels enlightened for sure but also very appreciative of what we have at home and how far we have come as a people. People don’t leave their native homes for the prospect of a worse life abroad…..Perhaps the number of people coming to the shores of the US and Australia might clue you in to this reality…..Most who have “traveled” for the first time in their lives………

  253. “Sparta, why can’t each individual do that for themselves? After all you have the ‘right to bear arms’.”

    You have to be joking? Try recalling why the 2nd amendment came into being……..

    “Ever looked at the death rate due to guns in the US compared with the rest of the world. I know. Refused to be mugged by reality.”

    Geez….not sure what this has to do with racism etcetera but anyway (perhaps that most crimes committed with handguns are at the hands of minorities?). Yes and what is your point? I tend to think of a gun as inanimate object that requires a human to be operated and used to commit a crime? It tends to just sit there without that little thing called “free will”……

    “Haven’t had a failure in that area. Certainly a lack of funding. But nothing like the collapse of GM and its funding ‘guarantee’ for health care.”

    My apologies again, I didn’t realize the “intervention” was a success……Collapse of GM? Yes, I am sure the Unions had nothing to do with that at all………LOL…..

    “FGS it’s like a third world country – at least for the uninsured.”

    That is probably your dumbest statement today…..We have free healthcare now Einstein, why do you think the 3rd world is flocking here? Why do you think CA is bankrupt? 10 billion alone in healthcare for illegal immigrants for starters……You have no idea what you’re talking about……..

    “That’s your problem and from our perspective you deserve to be swamped because of you emphasis on ‘individualism’. Talk about an ethnocentric view of the world.”

    Ok, my mistake, this is your most moronic statement of the day…….Yes, collectivism is a real winner historically now isn’t it? Ethnocentric view of the world? Millions upon millions of people around the world would probably disagree with you mate, but that is for another thread. I would agree that many Americans are a bit obsessed with “self” these days however, starting with your generation but doesn’t Australia have an “idol” as well……..

  254. @Sparta:
    With all due respect – you are talking out your ass. I doubt anyone on this blog (other than yourself) classifies their thoughts as so “mainstream” they represent 50% of the population. To think you are that representative of all but a group of two people alone is narcissistic and perhaps a little megalomaniac.

    Your comments on healthcare are, quite frankly, in the realms of pure delusion. When the World Health Organisation ranks the USA’s healthcare system 39th for overall performance and a more recent study puts you dead last out of all nineteen countries assessed – something tells me that your very wrong about the quality of healthcare. Damn it mate, you have the highest infant mortality rate amongst developed countries.

    But I reckon your reality filter (otherwise known as the “America is the Greatest” drug) will kick in and you’ll ignore the facts and go for some red herring instead.

  255. I wonder where we will rank in healthcare in a decade?

    http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25580337-953,00.html

  256. I think this article closely reflects what I had been trying to identify.

    Interesting personal experiences and observations.

    http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/are-we-racist-golly-gosh-goodness-gracious-me-yes/

  257. B.Tolputt, on June 2nd, 2009 at 6:45 pm Said:

    I dont really care if you are being blocked or not as I cant argue without a copy of the same dictionary that you use.

    And besides everything you write is suddenly taken out of context whenever its quoted back to you.

    So I wont bother……………………!

  258. Yes Tom it illustrates the point very well. Things are not always what they seem, particularly when one is on the receiving end.

  259. @Walrus:
    Diddums. You can’t seem to get the fact that the rented house next dooe can still be “their home” (regardless of ownership). That one does not need to own something for it to be “taken off” them. And so on.

    If you cannot get over the fact that English is an ambiguous language – learn Mandarin or (if you want an extremely precise language) try Lojban. Until then, man up and face the fact you can’t tell me what I mean anymore than than calling ABC journalists liars will erase the stain on NRL their report has exposed.

  260. BT – I read many of your contributions. You’ve supported a concept of equality in delivery of government services.

    If the starting point is one of extreme disadvantage in a specific community, you don’t think that some specific support mechanisms for this group are appropriate?

    I’ve posted in the past about the need to create role models in the indigenous community, that aren’t simply footballers. Programs that support this, particularly in indigenous artistic endeavours, will be dispersed throughout the country. The urban groups that are largely assimilated will benefit, and so will remote indigenous communities.

    Purpose and leaders can be created through these types of programs.

    I have no problem at all with identifying specific (artistic and educational) programs for government funding that target specific groups. The money is better spent in this area than in the leaching Eurocentric, up themselves, so called mainstream arts community.

  261. B.Tolputt

    Are you still stuck on the ABC…………….?

    As to the rest of your post………Yeh Whatever………………!

    Just keep enjoying the benefits of Life in Australia bestowed upon you by the displacement of an entire Race.

    As far as conscience is concerned well the quicker the remnants become completely absorbed into the gene pool the better………….. eh…………….!

  262. Not sure what you are asking Tom. I agree with the concepts you are putting forward. They are more thoughtful and would (I hope) have a better impact than simply throwing welfare money at the problem.

    My issue is not (and never has been) with supporting the people that need it. I simply don’t see how forcing an “acknowledge aboriginals” speech at the start of every assembly (where there are no indigenous students) or throwing more welfare at the “city abos” (as Min or Miglo called them) is going to help.

  263. Are you still stuck on the ABC

    No, but your issues with me only seemed to start after that blog. Prior to that, I wouldn’t hear a peep out of you in reply regardless of what I posted.

    As to the rest of your post………Yeh Whatever

    And that sums up how affected I am by your little grudge 🙂

  264. “…………………….but your issues with me only seemed to start after that blog……………..”

    “…………by your little grudge”

    B.Tolputt, on June 3rd, 2009 at 11:29 am Said:

    Oh cry me a river……………..just what we need…………..someone else who thinks other bloggers take personal issue against other anonymous bloggers.

  265. BT – my point is simply that there are variations in the way government funding is distributed. Equity is not always a critical element.

    There is nothing wrong in principle with targeting specific (ethnic) groups for programs that may not be available to the wider community or those, individually, who may suffer an equivalent level of privation.

    Indigenous art and performance should receive far more funding. The benefits of this will be available to those in unban or remote areas. The funding won’t be available to other ethnic groups, nor should it be.

    This is appropriate use of government funds, but it is not specifically needs based, it is not necessarily equitable, but it is just.

  266. .just what we need…

    Let me repeat myself… Diddums

  267. “World Health Organisation ranks the USA’s healthcare system 39th for overall performance and a more recent study puts you dead last out of all nineteen countries assessed – something tells me that your very wrong about the quality of healthcare.”

    Sigh……Yes, and I suppose WHO and the then director of WHO “Gro Harlem Brundtland”, and ardent socialist is to be trusted to give an objective measure…Strangely, most of the “index” looked at “fairness”….hilarious…..Come on mate, seen “Sicko” one too many times? Whatever you say though….Just don’t mention our failings to the thousands of Canadians seeking healthcare in the US every year….Also, can you please point me to a Western nation with a larger and more diverse population? Do you not think such variables play a role? You simply take anything at face value that fits your agenda mate, very obvious, try using your brain for a change.…For instance, more than half of all infant mortality related deaths are attributed to “pre-term” births. Oddly, there are large populations of particular groups of people where this trend is being seen in the States. Groups not found in any appreciable numbers outside of the US; just one of many factors simply discounted………

    “But I reckon your reality filter (otherwise known as the “America is the Greatest” drug) will kick in and you’ll ignore the facts and go for some red herring instead.”

    Red herring; oh yes, a debate people like yourself can never win….got it……..

  268. B.Tolputt, on June 3rd, 2009 at 11:52 am Said:

    Seeeeee………………………………Now you’ve gone and upset Sparta.

    Now we’ll be stuck with him for the rest of the afternoon thanks to you…………..!

  269. @Sparta:
    Oh dear, somebody went and questioned the greatness of the USA. Diddums…

    See – I’m all for equal opportunity 😛

    But for the record:
    Red Herring One: WHO had a socialist leaning director… hence it is impossible for them to be objective as an organistion.
    Red Herring Two: My claims are based on watching ‘Sicko’, a film I have never seen nor ever intend to. Michael Moore’s stuff is just as biased & twisted as the Intelligent Design documentary.
    Red Herring Three: Thousands of Canadians seek healthcare in the USA… *shrug* USA is acknowledged to have better “advanced treatments” (for cancer, HIV, & the like) unavailable to other countries. Says nothing about the “overall healthcare system”.

    But don’t worry, Sparta, your reality filter has obviously already kicked in – so fear not. No criticism of your country will get through to hurt you 🙂

  270. Please listen to this – Indigenous housing: myths and realities – from Late Night Live last night, it tells the truth of Aboriginal towns and camps from a man who has worked on them for over 30 years and worked with Fred Hollows.

    Some things to take note of:

    Firms contracted by the government to build and service Aboriginal housing ripping off both the Aboriginals and us tax payers. This has gone up to 28%. I gather this includes white owned businesses.

    The myths being put out about Aboriginals that most of us believe are the truth about them. I’ve believed the trash house one for as long as I can remember.

    The Howard government failures in this area on several fronts and the hallmark of his government, very poorly planned and framed policy.

  271. Sorry, Anonymous is me, I was parting in AL’s Anonymous experiment and forgot to change my moniker back to ME.

  272. Please listen to this – Indigenous housing: myths and realities – from Late Night Live last night, it tells the truth of Aboriginal towns and camps from a man who has worked on them for over 30 years and worked with Fred Hollows.

    Some things to take note of:

    Firms contracted by the government to build and service Aboriginal housing ripping off both the Aboriginals and us tax payers. This has gone up to 28%. I gather this includes white owned businesses.

    The myths being put out about Aboriginals that most of us believe are the truth about them. I’ve believed the trash house one for as long as I can remember.

    The Howard government failures in this area on several fronts and the hallmark of his government, very poorly planned and framed policy.

  273. Oh dear, apparently somebody throws the claim of “Red Herring” so often, as to be used as a crutch, they really have no idea what it really means…..

    -any diversion intended to distract attention from the main issue-

    1. WHO had a socialist leaning director… hence it is impossible for them to be objective as an organistion

    Hmm…never said it was impossible but you seem to discount completely, granted you probably didn’t even know to begin with, the fact that the index was based on “fairness”, not quality. You also seem to think a Socialist director, who helped craft the study, had no bearing on the final outcome at all, good grief…..Again, you seem unable to see past your own ideology mate.

    2. My claims are based on watching ‘Sicko’, a film I have never seen nor ever intend to. Michael Moore’s stuff is just as biased & twisted as the Intelligent Design documentary

    I made a jest that you had seen it one too many times….oddly you take the same positions as he does, citing the same WHO report as he does, even the infant mortality info, as he does……But on the point of it being a “red herring”, how do you figure? You admit yourself the guy is a hack? A hack you happen to be in agreement with is all….LOL……..Again, just commenting on the fact you and he share the same view, nothing more and hardly a herring……I have yet to meet a socialist that doesn’t cite that WHO report as some sort of “smoking gun”…..Very amusing indeed……

    3. Thousands of Canadians seek healthcare in the USA… *shrug* USA is acknowledged to have better “advanced treatments” (for cancer, HIV, & the like) unavailable to other countries.
    “Says nothing about the “overall healthcare system”.”

    Shrug, well yes, you would. Appears you too are looking through a “fairness” lens which is moronic at best but if the shoe fits……..The Canadian phenomenon highlights a point you miss completely, as usual. Many are coming to see Primary Care physicians they have here in the States as most do not want to wait 3 months to get in to see their doc. People die waiting for care in Canada and hence choose to come south to receive care in this “unfair” system. Again, your stupidity rears its ugly head………You also completely avoid addressing the many other dimensions I cite which complicate judging healthcare delivery in the US compared to other countries. We have more people in the state of Florida alone then you do on the entire continent of Australia dude, get a clue……..

    “But don’t worry, Sparta, your reality filter has obviously already kicked in – so fear not. No criticism of your country will get through to hurt you”

    I criticize my own country mate but your complaints are just idiotic and worn out, nothing more. Anyhow, I notice you have trouble actually debating anything. Either everything is a “red herring” and by your examples above, you clearly don’t know what that is most of the time or you disappear when bested, which is often…….Again, nobody is forcing you to comment on my posts so by all means, until you learn how to actually take a position and defend it, do yourself a favor and don’t………It is becoming quite boring trashing your pitiful intellect…….LOL…..

  274. I’d reply in depth to your diversions but the following quote sums up your credibility…

    I criticize my own country mate

    Bullshit.

  275. Cab driver last night was from Bangladesh. He has been here for 15 years and does not think that Australia is an overly racist country. Yes – he said – there are racists, but they are in a minority.

    His final comment on this (we chatted about lots of things) was “If Australia is so racist against Indians, why do so many want to come here?”

  276. And I love how sparta always thinks that he is the intellectual giant and that he always wins. Too funny.

  277. Well, obviously not all Aussies are racist…

    http://www.theage.com.au/national/indian-stab-victim-aussie-banker-to-pay-for-airfare-20090603-bv2m.html

    Wonder if this will hit the headlines in India and the USA – probably not negative or sensationa enough …

    … unless they can spin that the banker is just laundering money, I suppose …

  278. And I love how sparta always thinks that he is the intellectual giant and that he always wins. Too funny.

    Agreed. Taking apart his BS gets tiresome, but it is always easy (& fun) to cue the “Praise America” rants 😛

    At least my arguments with Walrus tend to be based on misunderstandings. Sparta often doesn’t even realise he confirms the case against him while ranting 🙂

  279. And one final mention of the deplorable US Healthcare System – Medical bills underlie 60 percent of U.S. bankruptcies. Because the world’s best system would drive the people using it into bankruptcy wouldn’t it? No good having the world’s best biotech & treatment if no-one can afford it.

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