Midweek Mayhem!

Hello,

Good afternoon, and welcome to Midweek Mayhem, our middle of the week (in)sanity break from everything that’s going on around us.

Poor old Joe Hockey. What a state he was in last night on the 7.30 report.

Mr Hockey was questioning the integrity of the data provided by Treasury and the RBA that the Government has recently used to indicate growth forecasts in the years ahead.

Ken Henry in particular, expects that the Australian economy will recover at a greater rate than our European counterparts, and of course the Liberals – especially Joe Hockey – jumped on these forecasts decrying them as absolute nonsense.

Ken Henry, in his calm and articulate style, which I have come to love and adore, mentioned during a business luncheon, that people that sought to call into question their forecasts and the methodology underpinning them, may understandably have difficulty comprehending their integrity if they weren’t “above reading age.”

Even the usually unflappable Kerry O’Brien was practically in tears of laughter while Joe Hockey floundered around trying to explain the Treasury forecasts were reliable when it comes to Liberal party forecasts but the stuff of nonsense when it came to Labor party forecasts.

“But aren’t these the same people?” asked Kerry with tears of laughter in his eyes..

Poor old Joe just huffed and guffawed his way through, chucking in the odd mention about “growing the pie” while laughing off the antics of the Labor mob.

The funniest part of the entire episode was that Hockey thought O’Brien was laughing with him, not at him.

He really ought to have his own chat show…

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304 Responses

  1. “Growing the pie”?

    Poor beef-eatin’ Joe’s pastry’s gone flaky. He’s all puff with a soggy bottom and stuffed full of chewy gristle.

  2. not “throbbing gristle?”

  3. Joe couldn’t throb if you stuck a bomb up him.

  4. At least he say that word, ‘billion’!

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25511457-601,00.html

    Denial, anyone?

  5. Off topic (force of habit, trained by Matty Price). For Tom, I did answer, it’s on the Monday thread.

    And it’s worth a repeat: My mother 84yrs played in the ruck for Katamatite. What was that you were saying joni about kitchen dancing? Mind you, Mum stands only 5′ these days but don’t anyone try to stand in her way while trying to board a tram Glenferrie.

    Have to choof as we have some severe weather..scaper, TB, Aqua too I should imagine.

  6. Yes Min, I did notice that you said that you had no information whatsoever that there were “very young teenagers” in the adult team that had a stripper at the pre game.

    I didn’t bother to add anything to that, so I’m unsure why you would raise the issue again now.

  7. I love pies! Anyone out there know how to grow one?
    I’ll take a b-b-billion, sorry, a lot of seeds.

  8. “Anyone out there know how to grow one?”

    Yep!

  9. So scaper, with all this rain it should be easy. Please tell me.

  10. I’ve just watched cuddly Joe on the 7.30 report (via ABC now). He’s such a nice guy! But he doesn’t say much does he? But then again none of them do.
    Apologies, I’ve had a day off due to weather and am growing quite pie-eyed.

  11. Wow, Hockey reckons the PM is spending $10M an hour…that’s a lot of strippers!

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25512082-601,00.html

    What does his wife think?

  12. Tom, just place your personal experience on the table. How much time that you have spent training junior teams..how much time you have spent fund raising for same. How much time you have spent in the canteen washing dishes.

    I’ve related mine..cousin John Jenkins aka Jerka (North Melbourne), Yarra Valley Ranges teams. And an addendum Catholic teams aka Bud Tingwell who played for Our Lady’s of Perpetual Suckers (whoops, Succour..an in-Catholic joke)..hubby was a junior, he was an ‘old boy’ as the saying goes. But once a Succour, always a Succour. [Supplementary Catholic joke].

  13. Tom, I’m not defending or attacking Brumby – but noting a distinction between Kevin Rudd’s behaviour and the footy club’s. Don’t know if it makes a difference or not.

    Kevin took himself to the strip club – it was his decision to have that experience.

    Whoever organised the stripper for the footy club (in all probability) made that choice for all those who were present.

    And yes, anyone unhappy could walk out once it became clear what was happening – but I’m also betting there would be a lot of peer pressure to stay unless a “leader of the pack” was the first to go.

  14. scaper, while you’re around I’d like to ask some advice from a professional. I’ve been asked to do a small rendering job, but all the research is confusing. What is the best mix for a good mud (pie?) for rendering?

  15. [Scroll on by…CIA already under investigation for misleading congress]

    One amazing thing about this Pelosi kerfuffle over what she knew and when and what she did about it is that Republicans don’t seem to understand that if she’s guilty of something, then various Bush admin high-ups are guilty of much much worse.

    But the latest “scandal” has been created by the Republicans clutching their pearls and bringing out the fainting couch because Pelosi said that CIA apparently mislead Congress – Republicans find the very prospect impossible, and the charges somehow unpatriotic, and demeaning to the upright professionals who staff the CIA, or something.

    And yet, the very same Republican who is probably making the most fuss about Pelosi saying CIA mislead Congress is the one who initiated an inquiry into a documented case where CIA mislead Congress.

  16. Handyrab, it’s all about seed selection, you have to select a seed that will not rot, fertilise with determination and optimism.

    Once the pie tree grows you have to nurture it to create a strong root system until it produces fruit, when picking the pies always allow for a proportion to be used for fertiliser and share around the rest to be consumed by all.

    This will lead to more branching, hence more pies to share with more people and more fertilising.

    The problem at the moment is the seeds are being crushed to make the daily bread.

  17. Good retort, Scaper. Having just received my tax return, I can now look forward to my daily bread?????? Don’t worry I will endeavour to spend it unwisely!

  18. My recipe…four parts pit sand, not beach sand, one part cement, and a mouthfull of PVA glue.

    Preparation, clean surface, make a slurry mixture of water, cement and PVA glue.

    Flick a dimple coat on surface to guarantee adherring and let dry.

    If it is a wall apply from bottom up no thicker than 10mm, let it dry a bit then finish with a damp sponge in a circular motion.

    If the surface is scouring apply a small amount of water and continue working with sponge until the desired result is achieved.

    Painting can usually be done in 48 hours as long as the undercoat has good sealing properties.

    If you don’t want to mix your own you can buy it in bags but that is expensive.

    For surfaces not made from brick I would suggest a polymer based render that can expand and contract without cracking or delamination.

    Hope this helps.

  19. scaper,

    Is it true that there is no way you can cement render painted brick ?

    Which seems reasonable due to adherence problems but…………no way at all………….unless paint removed ?

  20. Wives tale!

    The trick cleaning and a bit of elbow grease with a wire brush or a wire fitting for a drill, then follow the method I have provided.

    After a day of rendering I get a glove of PVA glue on my hands!

  21. scaper…, on May 20th, 2009 at 5:55 pm Said:

    Thanks scaper,

    So a good “roughing up” ……….or a sand blasting should do it !

  22. Thanks for that scaper. But what happens if you have a big mouth?
    I have been told all sorts of thing 4 sand, 2lime 1 cement. 3:1:1. and add brickies clay, bycol whatever.
    I’ll take your advice. Its the scouring that has caused me problems and not just on my bum.
    Thanks mate.

  23. handyrab Said:
    I love pies!

    Bugger you handyrab – I’m still feeling dirty after following joni’s link in the Thai Panic! thread and you go and mention Ackerman… 😈

  24. The End is Nigh!

    The new (replacement) carpet was laid today…just got to put everything back (oh! My aching…)

    Still fine “toonin’ ” the new computers…hasn’t improved my keyboard skills…still too s-l-o-w…

    Calmy dealt with overflow from two neighbours’ pools this arvo…sent The Minister out to build a couple of dams (she loves it – born in Holland…what can I say?)…

    …and how lucky were we? Friday, Saturday and Sunday night in a tent at Wivenhoe Dam, beautiful weather, home Monday arvo – Tuesday and the heavens (where’s James?) open up…

    I’ve been lifting and carrying and wiring up and down for two days now (not counting the camping BS) ITS WT TIME….”clink”…

    BTW – The End is Nigh was my nickname at Peers Blindly’s blog (TB Qld – was banned) took great delight at the last election telling him and his cronies that The End is HERE! 🙂

  25. scaper, I still use Bondcrete (PVA) but a bit better…

  26. Sorry bacchus, I meant to say Meaty Peirs. (oops)

  27. FFS! Where did everyone go?

    I USE a deodorant…

  28. Look at that! All this time and here you all are! Reb and Scaper and Min, how are you guys doing? i am the Walrus too! How’s it going? Are Joni and Angel kicking around here too? How about Herindoors of Adelaide or Shaun? And John Mc P, anyone see him at all? And Kittylitter too? Anyone see them at all?

    Wow. What a hoot. Look at you guys, still hanging out and talking. How sweet is that? Got room for one more from time to time? Can’t promise I’ll be here daily but I think a got a couple days a week I can chime in…

    And Bacchus! How you going Bacchus?

    Now the question arises…Does anyone at all remember me?

  29. Gidday TB and *clink*

  30. Who are you?

  31. Reb, I watched the interview and Hockey is all pie in the sky. He is a complete goose.

  32. TB, Boncrete is PVA glue but you pay for the brandname.

    Handyrab, Bycol or plasticiser as it is known weakens the render.

    Nice rain, TB…this is just like 1974, the full weather cycle?

  33. TB, I’ve just bought a new suit. do you approve..?

    Migs,

    I thought Joe was hilarious. He is such a dill. He’s got that complete aghast and outrage act down to a fine art..

    But watching him fumble around Kerry’s argument that both sides of politics rely on the same “experts” from Treasury and the RBA was pure gold..

  34. G’day, sreb, just jokin’.

    Have a question…general…to all?

    …is there a way to have the page constantly update the blogocrats without “refreshing” the page?

  35. Cripes!

    Joe’s been out and about again.

    I love the way the caption says “enlarge photo”

    As if you need to when it comes to Big Avuncular!!

    http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/latest/5581365/debt-decades-repay-hockey/

  36. scaper, yeah I know, but …

    …and yes I agree very much 1974…how many days then? 28 – 30? Swam out of Ira Berks, Butterfield St workshop at 7:00pm 10′ of water over the road…

    sreb,
    Any suit you buy MUST be classy – looks just like my $600 tailor made (hehe) suit of wool (still in the wardrobe looking for moths!)…

    Gonna try and talk The Minister into allowing a third WT – here goes…whoouuhhh!

  37. No I don’t know TB, I just hit refresh every now and then.

    Maybe Joni might know (being the IT guru)…

  38. You mean you don’t have a sly bottle tucked away next to the PC?

  39. The workshop where my new motor for my old truck is getting fitted is in the flood zone at Oxley!

    She’ll be right, years ago a mate and I were perving at a chick in a bikini selling ice creams near the Maheno wreck and drove straight into the surf.

    Had waves breaking over the bonnet, put the truck into low reverse and backed onto the beach…not a good look!

  40. TB: males only use deodorant when they haven’t had time to have a shower. Deodorant is a dead giveaway re the aforementioned.

  41. woohoo!!

    http://www.seqwater.com.au/

    Water level update: 20 May 09

    Wivenhoe, Somerset and North Pine dams Combined levels at 67.5%. WIV 51.2%, SOM 100%, NPD 98.39%. Combined levels have increased by 8.22% in the past 24 hours, adding 8-8.5 months of additional supply to the system. Somerset is at 100% and overnight it is expected water will release over the fixed spillway. In addition we are currently releasing from two cone valves.

    Seqwater expects levels to get close to 70% by mid-morning tomorrow. The last time dams were at this level was July 2002.

    All major drinking water dams at the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast are at capacity or spilling.

  42. Hi TB,

    I’m the same with some of my clothes. In particular, my Harris Tweed jacket is a lifer.

    Harris Tweed. Only the best.

  43. Not really – its upstairs – we built a low set home but later put an office extension at the back and room/ensuite/balcony above that looks out to Brisbane – it has my “second” bar in it…gotta be quite though…

    BTW – third WT – no probs – been workin’ and fixin’ (the carpet layers damaged two wires on the input…(Heroes get thirds! 🙂 )

  44. bacchus, I heard a whisper that Bligh is going to privatise our water, then I hear the Water Commission is being disbanded!

    Wivenhoe should not be allowed to be above 65% as that was built for flood mitigation, restrictions are not getting lifted…madness!

  45. Welcome Wolfrayet!!

    Scrollup everyone! to 6.28pm!!!

  46. Hi Wolf, you took your time…I said at Tim’s to keep an eye on Jack the Insider’s blog as a rallying point.

    How did you eventually find us?

  47. And bacchus..the rest is in my front driveway.

    This is how it happened via the Bureau of Meterology webside..the flood monitoring station which was in our former backyard at Billinudgel (Marshalls Creek at The Pocket). And it was whoopsadaisy..

    http://www.bom.gov.au/fwo/IDN60231/IDN60231.558004.plt.shtml

    I think that this is the most sudden flood in my experience..as can be noted via the graph. Maybe just as sudden but not as high.

  48. Min, tut tut, a gentleman (oops! Australian gentleman showers at least once a day – more if the occasion arises)

    …and strangely enough I rarely use/need a deodorant – heavy work, yes, shower or deodorant….before shower..

    …the ADF is very serious about “personal hygiene” (as I’m sure the Matelot will confirm) and it sticks (‘scuse the pun) – read about the Pommie soldiers in WWII POW camps and it was thier lack of hygiene in the tropics (compared to the Diggers) that caused a lot of sickness and death…

    You shouldn’t “needle” me, Min…

  49. scaper, Wivenhoe’s at 51.2% so far – be interesting to know how much more rain it would need to get to the 65% level. I agree with not lifting restrictions ……. yet.

    I hope Ms Bligh doesn’t go down the water privatisation road – electricity was bad enough.

  50. Yes, I remember Wolfrayet from Tim’s site. Hey Wolfer, forgive me if I’m wrong, but was it you who used to post some lively blogs on Indigenous threads?

  51. More importantly, how’s your young charge developing…Grandfanali’s son?

  52. Welcome, Wolfrayet…

    I confess, I don’t remember – but the welcome is just as warm…

    Bloody hell! Visitors (in the rain?) how unique…and dinner time…mmmmm!

    …back ASAP!

  53. handyrab, on May 20th, 2009 at 5:01 pm Said:
    I love pies! Anyone out there know how to grow one?

    A hunk of bone..loads and loads of muscle. Intestinal fortitute. Resolution and dedication. A sense of history. And you have it…The Pies!!! Carn the Woods. YAY!!!!

    Or wasn’t that what you meant? Min slinks off into the corner.

  54. bacchus, I reckon it will be achieved by Monday next week at the latest.

    The Stanley will be feeding Somerset for a week if the rain stopped tonight.

    Got to cook a BBQ on the back deck now, it’s covered so I’ll stay dry.

  55. Min, I remember some heavy floods when I lived at Main Arm for a year. Must have been well over 20 ft rise on one occasion, and spread over quite a large area. Took several days before we could get out of the property.

  56. I remember when Grandfanali passed away. A sad moment.

  57. Me too Miglo. He was only young too.

  58. anyway, moving on.

    I had quite a nice lamb pie for dinner.

  59. Wolf..hubby is sitting looking over my right shoulder..sigh..so apologies for a less than concise reply. By gee, I do remember writing the name Wolf.

    Re has anyone seen John McP..? It’s more of a matter of how to get rid of him..hehe. Yes he’s still here most definitely and apart from the majors does most of the research.

    Joni..who? That bloke who’s into human rights and all that. Yes, have spotted him on occasions when he’s not busy trying on suits that look like pyjamas.

    Wolf, have to choof (which rhymes :-)), squishy hugs. Wonderful to have friends back.

  60. Loth..that’s right you were at Main Arm. I had forgotten about that. Sorry. We were across the road from The Pocket school, the Billinudgel side of that causeway. Where were you?

    Must now most definitely choof. A 4am start this morning and so it’s now just about ni-ni’s time.

  61. I interrupt this blog to tell you I’ve just eaten the best lamb shank meal ever! And I cooked it myself. Want to hear more? No? That’s disappointing.
    Anyway I’ll tell youse what it did, very roughly.
    6 lamb shanks dusted and browned.
    2-4 onions 2-3 garlic cloves a shit load(2tbs) of tomato paste a big tin of crushed tomatoes and a truck load of anchovies (or conservatively, a trailer load – or a couple of fillets), a little rosemary and thyme, some chicken stock and (coriole) shiraz.
    Fry onions and garlic then stick the rest in. Cook for howeve rlong you like (2-3). I served it with potatoes microwaved, crushed and fried with garlic and butter +greens. Yum

  62. Heehee. Gone but not forgotten. Man, Grandfanali must’ve had an impact on you guys huh? To still be mentioned – And in the same sentence as my name too!

    Scaper and Reb, I’m doing well now. I found you by sheer happenstance too. There I was, wandering through the old Blogocracy posts, feeling nostalgic, and then a link pops up in the Google search I was doing on GF. Too good to pass I thought and leapt onto it. The link took me to a question: Does anyone remember Grandfanali and Worf Rayet? Knew I’d found the right place then.

    Hey Miglo, good to see you too mate. I might have, but that was more GF’s line than mine. I was kinda broken at that point so I can’t even remember what it was that I did write about. Gods, I hope I didn’t embarrass myself with it.

    Scaper, GF’s boy is joyous. He’s 9 now – 9! – and looking more and more like GF every damned day. He’s gonna be taller then GF, and smarter if I can swing it. My boys are outside now, doing something I’ll probably regret with my dog and laughing their heads off. Mate, I’m amazed you remembered. It’s been a difficult road, but then parenthood is…isn’t it? God tell me it’s a hard road or I’m doing something really wrong.

    Miglo and Reb, it stays that way. i don’t even try to stop feeling sad about it anymore. i just cry now and then when “My other son” comes in and sits with me.

    Guys, it great to “see” you again. i can’t say what this is, this site and the people who make it, but what you guys built on one site has passed in toto to another. You’re good people, and you stuck together. Grats guys, that’s a feat in and of itself these days.

  63. God it’s refreshing to have a day off!

  64. “God tell me its a hard road or I’m doing something really wrong”
    Wolfrayet, judging by your post it is not likely you are doing anything wrong. You care. Kids are hard work but they are far more understanding than we give them credit for. Be your self. Easier said than done – nuh.

  65. Hi Wolfrayet, good to see you’ve happened upon us here. You’re one of the bunch of Blogocracy regulars I’ve been missing.

    With regards to Reb’s launch post, Joke Hockey is shaping up as a future Liberal leader in Howard’s mode. He’s got some of the same qualities…

  66. Well, time for bed, now where’s those quikeze.

  67. Hey, hey, it’s Caney. How you doing?

    This whole site here is really hitting home now. It’s like a reunion amongst people who you don’t realize you’ve missed, or how badly you’ve missed them. How many of you made the transition?

    Handyrab, I probably feel like every other parent out there: Lost, kinda scared, a little freaked out by the whole thing..And I think it’s too much work to be someone else, so sticking with being me will have to do.:)

  68. Without wishing to appear self-appraising or sanctimonious, it’s moments like these that make me think it’s all worthwhile.

  69. Sri K Pattabhi Jois, founder of Ashtanga Yoga, has died at the age of 93.
    Mr Jois, from India, was the modern founder of the Ashtanga branch of yoga and largely responsible for popularising the healthy practice outside the sub continent.

  70. reb, on May 20th, 2009 at 9:07 pm

    Gawd, you can be a sanctimonious prick sometimes, sreb!

    G’night all! Hic! 😀

  71. Wow, Wolf Rayet found the place eh.

  72. Pies are indeed good.

    I particularly enjoy watching miglo’s football team eating fresh, steaming humble pies.

  73. Min, I can’t remember exactly, but you’d get there on the road from Mullum, and it most of the way to that intersection where you take a sharp right turn to start heading towards Billinudgel. You had to drive across a causeway over the creek to get up to the house…which is what flooded you in every now and then.

  74. Hi wolfie!
    Wonderfully pleased to hear from you, reading your updates have made my day!

  75. So Lotharson, I read your comment a couple of times. I don’t understand the point you are making.

    Rudd is on a taxpayer funded trip and goes to a strip club. Then fails to tell the truth about it. He is largely accommodated by his political allies and others that are simply blindly loyal and partisan.

    A stripper goes to an adult footy pre match. Brumby and the politically correct are appalled, and demand an apology!! The club is fined, players get retraining.

    Rudd gets …?

    Min, I’ve had plenty of involvement in footy clubs and other sports. I don’t think there is a whole lot that I’d pick up from most people at the margins of sporting clubs.

  76. Tom, Rudd apparently didn’t impose the stripper experience on anyone else. The footy club did. This seems like a notable difference…

  77. Ahhh… I am so happy to be back in Singapore. I have been out to have a feed outside my hotel. Bliss

    Wolfy – welcome!!!! Um…. sorry, don’t remember – were you on blogocracy? It seems so long ag (Hi to TimTim)

  78. Joni and Kitty! WOOHOO! How the living hell have you both been?
    And Toiletboss! Going well mate?

    joni Wed 20 Feb 08 (09:35am)

    Very witty, Joni, very witty. LOL
    Wolf Rayet
    Wed 20 Feb 08 (09:51am)

    Sure was Joni, but only for a little while before things went pear shaped again. All is as good as it gets now, though. You may remember Grandfanali better than me, I’m just the second string.

  79. WOW – it is great to have you here my friend. A lot of the old ones are here – some with slight name changes.

    Please stay, participate and, most of all, have fun. Play hard, but be nice to the one who we disagree with – as we need their POV to provoke us.

    And yes Neil, Tom, Sparta et al, we really do like you here – even though we give you plenty of crap.

    And BTW everyone – the Cockburns Special Reserve Port from Duty Free is very nice, thanks for asking.

  80. “Club Gitmo” will stay open? Mr. Obama, meet “reality”…….

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g8bwGI-J-TSag_r3uCSItaIO3RJwD98A7ULG2

  81. OK Tom just what truth did Rudd fail to tell about that nightclub?

  82. I thought the PM was too drunk to remember.

  83. Mobius Echo “OK Tom just what truth did Rudd fail to tell about that nightclub?”

    I thnk Rudd was asked (repeatedly) what had happened, what he saw, how long he was there… etc

    He continually responded that he was too drunk to remember!!

    How drunk was he? No one is that drunk as vertical. If anyone is that drunk they are throwing up.

    He simply found the “too drunk” answer more expedient than the truth.

    And Brumby has the gall to engage in dumb criticism of a footy club for the standards that our (now) PM applies to himself. Brumby was seen to be a smart operator, now he seems stupid.

    Brumby should see that the PM gets the same retraining that the footy players get.

  84. Tom, do you own any socks?

  85. Hello Wolf Rayet

    Please park you taste in music at the far end of the car park before entering the blog.

    Thankyou

  86. Oh my god clutching at straws Tom and making it up as you go, no matter that the club manager and a bouncer backed Rudd’s hazy version of events, you have to label him a liar and “speculate” as to why that is.

    Yet another example of pettiness in trying to denigrate Rudd in anyway possible. Rudd sniffles and it’s now the greatest disaster that has befallen Australia and proves he’s the worst PM we’ve had.

  87. Not reality Sparta, utter stupidity and the perfect illustration of how US people are cowed and shivering in their beds through the constant meaningless scare campaigning going on by mostly the Republicans, but many other self interested extreme right wing groups and organisations.

    What a cowardly race of people Americans have become.

    Do you know how many convicted terrorists are currently imprisoned on US soil Sparta, in normal or super-max prisions, some as bad or worse than those in Gitmo?

    “Oh Gitmo terrorists on our soil, we will all be destroyed, American life as we know it will end and al-Qaida will be ruling in a few short years if we allow this to happen.” That was the basis of one Republican senator’s speech yet he never mentioned all the real terrorists currently imprisoned on US soil and who have been there for many years without the destruction of America or taking over the prison gangs as some Republican senators are saying will happen.

    It is really sad to see what has happened to a once proud and great people.

  88. Adrian???

  89. No I was illustrating the hypocrisy and inconsistent stupidity of Premier Brumby on this occasion.

    The fact that Rudd neglected to be truthful was incidental, and illustrative of Brumby’s actions.

    Rudd simply found his “don’t remember’ line more expedient that owning up.

    Nothing wrong with getting drunk and going to a strip club, the issue is that he held a leadership position, he was on a taxpayer funded junket and he continually obfuscated and neglected to be honest.

    And Brumby’s comments have again highlighted the issue.

  90. Still not a single piece of fact Tom, just your personal assertion that Rudd neglected to be truthful.

    scaper: YES!!!

  91. Good morning Adrian. Good to see you back. 🙂

  92. How are you feeling?

    Good to see you round these parts again.

  93. Is that Adrian of N..???

  94. Mobius,

    It has nothing to do with fear for many us, just the realization of the “legal” pitfalls that will have to be born once they set foot upon American soil, let alone gain access to our system. Those terrorist currently already imprisoned on our soil were done so under completely different circumstances but I wouldn’t expect a partisan “moron” to understand that.

    -changing your “avatar” certainly doesn’t disguise a familiar imbecility………

  95. Adrian,

    What’s with the “Rat” avatar ?

  96. Mobius Echo – Sensational to see you here!!

    This place is just loaded to hilt with people that just express a politically correct opinion, and it is very often wrong.

    It will be welcome to have someone here that expresses the wrong opinion, but backs this up with plenty of incorrect research.

  97. Oh so changing my avatar is now a sin. Yet another banality.

    And I’m an imbecile now, your superbia reveals itself with that one ending line. I have not attempted to disguise anything this time and that you state it as a put down says more about your failing than it does about me.

    Back to the subject. What legal pitfalls Sparta, there are currently over 200 convicted terrorists in US prisons, some convicted of offences worse than those being levelled at those in Gitmo?

    Also the motion was not put down by the Senate on legal pitfalls, but almost exclusively on fear of these Gitmo terrorists running amok on US soil, even turning US prisons into terror HQs and terror cells. If you can’t see the idiocy in that then I think the imbecile tag belongs elsewhere.

    It was a huge cower the US population for political gain exercise yet again.

  98. “…………………… and it is very often wrong.”

    Tom of Melbourne, on May 21st, 2009 at 10:03 am Said:

    What………………!

    Only “very often”……………!

    Are you mellowing Tom ?

  99. Yes Tom keep expressing your wrong opinions and to the hilt I’ll keep pointing out the error of your ways, just like your false assertion on Rudd’s truthfulness.

    Stupid thing is Tom, Rudd has lied on many things and some important, so why you need to attribute a lie where there is none and and such a triviality has me stumped.

  100. Gecko Walrus, gecko.

    Actually I should change my moniker’s spelling to how I use it everywhere else. Thanks for the head’s up.

  101. Well MB, even I had decided to let this one go until the stupidity of Brumby.

    Saying that he was appalled by having a stripper in the footy club rooms, demanding an apology for this… then the players have to be retrained, the club fined…

    I’m just asking, why is this so different and more serious than the behaviour of our (now) PM?

    Rudd was a fool for doing this in the first place on a taxpayer funded trip, a fool for using the “can’t remember anything as I was too drunk” excuse, was a whole lot less than honest in this respect.

    Brumby was a complete dill for failing to think about Rudd’s behaviour before launching his outrage in the direction of a amateur footy club.

    By the way, I’ve chosen to avoid using the word “lie” here.

  102. Grandfinali is remembered by me with much fondness too Wolfie, I’m very happy you’ve made it here!

    What a beautiful day, now it’s Adrian/Mobius Echo! Missed you and hope you are well, cheers.

    (reb) Without wishing to appear self-appraising or sanctimonious, it’s moments like these that make me think it’s all worthwhile.

    Which is why I would like to encourage you and joni to keep up the good work, you’ve given us a number of thoughtfully intelligent and insightful posts and comments recently reb, thanks.

    (tom)he was on a taxpayer funded junket and he continually obfuscated and neglected to be honest.

    Gee, if that was a crime, every pollie in the world would be in gaol!

  103. Mobius…….

    “It was a huge cower the US population for political gain exercise yet again.”

    I will agree with that but in this case the “cower” just happens to be the “common sense” move…..How have you been by the way? Did you ever really leave? Nice to have you back “officially” pain in the ass…………

    Anyhow, you glazed over the part about those currently in captivity as having been “arrested” not picked up on a battlefield etcetera…It would simply be a field day for the ACLU and you know it. Apparently so do the “Blue-Dogs”……….

  104. http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25516112-12377,00.html

    I notice the Rebublicans are being brought up as if mentioning the need for a plan before funding is somehow a bad idea? Perhpas Obama should have maybe thought of this before the long winded speech?

    Reminds me of Rudd and his “Apology”. I wonder, how things have changed for the Aboriginal plight since that “magical day”? Oh hell, at least we all felt “warm and fuzzy” for a bit………

  105. Always remember … it’s the unions’ fault. BOO!

  106. Sparta, from your link:

    While the White House said that would not delay plans to shut the prison down by early next year, the move was a setback for Mr Obama, as it was his fellow Democrats who control the Senate that dumped the money.

  107. Tony,

    Absolutely, but the media still keeps trying to sell this as some sort of “Jedi Mind Trick” by the Republicans? I still can’t wait to see what happens when he attempts to sell it to the average American…..I am thinking he will have to settle for Afghanistan but he is certainly brazen enough to say to hell with the “folks”…….

  108. Oh my god now Sparta brings it back to Rudd’s apology, something he knows little about and has no clue as to what has occurred since then, but being the know it all resident Yank feels he as to comment on.

    “Warning Will Robinson, strawman, strawman…”

    As long as I’m a pain the arse to your constant pain in the arse outpourings then I feel I’m being of some use.

  109. Is there a moderation cue in this blog now?
    .
    KAMAHLODERATOR: Sometimes comments get caught in the spam filter Mobius. I am not sure why. But when we find them, we let them run free, like the elephants…
    .

  110. Sparta, do you believe that Obama can sell an ETS to the American public and the corporations?

  111. Mobius,

    Pace yourself “MATE”……….

  112. Well, good grief and all that. Look what happens when I have a morning away..something exciting happens. I’m not sure where we were up to Mobius, but if you don’t know..I am now a granny of a 6 month old grand-daughter, courtesy of the Matelot.

  113. Scaper,

    These days, not really and yes….. The American public needs about a week or two to get sufficiently outraged enough to pick up the phone and call their reps and the idea that they won’t be strapped for another 8 years or so is too distant for most to grasp; after all, politics isn’t “American Idol”….. It won’t matter though, the Dems are running things. Most of their base swallows the AGW issue no questions asked……..Must have been the “frog in boiling in water” cartoon that did it…LOL……

  114. Ah good old sailors certainly know how to breed, and no surprise it’s a girl, look up the stats on sailors and female offspring compared to male.

    In the branch I was in (radio/radar/technical) female offspring outnumbered male about 5:1.

  115. Sparta

    Why MATE?

  116. Mobius..the reason is having sex far too often. If one wants to have male child, abstain for a few days and do the deed spot on ovulation as male sperm are faster but shorter lived. The reason that sailors have female children is therefore obvious.

  117. Sparta

    What do you think of the declassified stuff that is coming out showing Bush/Rumsfeld Iraq briefings with heavy religious and crusade undertones, sayings and reasoning to invade?

    Also the fact that Rumsfeld deliberately withheld crucial intelligence infrastructure to Australia behind Bush’s back, which was a slap in the face to Howard (and Bush showing the puppet he really was)?

  118. Nah Min, it’s them radio frequency (RF) waves most sailors bath in on ships.

    Stokers, stores bashers, scribes, cooks etc. who mostly work below decks and away from all the electronic whiz bang stuff have about the normal balance of male/female children I believe.

  119. Mobius,

    I don’t see why you have to be especially nasty from the get go? I get the feeling I am therapy for you? Anyhow, you always hated when I referred to you as “mate”…….I am disappointed you don’t remember?
    Anyhow, don’t pop your cork on the 1st day……..How long have you been dropping in? I suspect for some time…..Your disdain/style is unmistakable….

  120. Mobius,

    “What do you think of the declassified stuff that is coming out showing Bush/Rumsfeld Iraq briefings with heavy religious and crusade undertones, sayings and reasoning to invade?”

    I haven’t really been up on that one but it is disturbing on the surface to say the least……….Last thing we need is to validate the Islamo Fascist’s mantra…..

    “Also the fact that Rumsfeld deliberately withheld crucial intelligence infrastructure to Australia behind Bush’s back, which was a slap in the face to Howard (and Bush showing the puppet he really was)?”

    What do you refer too? I am not aware of such a thing? Give me a link, I am bit curious now……I wouldn’t be surprised though, never liked Rumsfeld much……..How do you feel about Russia still occupying Georgian territory?

  121. Mobius..it’s amazing that stokers are able to have children at all, a bit like truckies. Son is now on the patrol boats out of Cairns.

    It must indeed feel like a blast from the past..especially with Tom still fretting about what Rudd saw or didn’t see in a strip club eons ago.

  122. Yes Min, especially since the current far more earth shattering conversation around the RWDB traps is the fact on Lateline the other night Rudd refused to say the word “billion” after a figure that was self evident in the billions, but even worse the ABC (leftie scoundrals) added the word billion in parenthesis in the transcript. This apparently means they stuck up for Rudd.

  123. Doesn’t the government reforms on employee share plans create a new level of confidence and certainty?*

    As always seamless and well thought out.*

    Great work yet again from Wayne Swan.*

    He’s doing a great job, just as I predicted*

    Even the unions love it!*

    *note – indication of sarcasm

  124. Sparta

    Howard asked Bush for access to the SIPRNet, which Bush granted but Rumsfeld behind Bush’s back stymied. Howard thought that the long delay in getting the access was because of technical problems and it wasn’t until he approached Bush on the matter that it was discovered he had been denied access.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25515023-601,00.html

    There’s lots more floating around on this, other stuff denied to Howard and the religious undertones on the highly classified intelligence briefings for the Iraq war.

    Just what we needed, religious nuts on both sides.

  125. “Just what we needed, religious nuts on both sides.”

    No kidding……..

  126. Tom that plan was being rorted by high income earners in a tax loophole left by Howard. Now why doesn’t that surprise me and it doesn’t surprise me that unions are bitching, not because workers will be effected, but because they get to use the same tax loophole high income earners do.

    What’s wrong in fixing the loophole so this scheme is used as Howard originally stated it would be?

    Yet another thing Rudd goes against the unions on cementing his place to the right.

  127. Scaper,

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/05202009/news/Cromitie_et_al_Arrests_PR.pdf

    From the same article you posted….1st generation immigrants or what? Sounds like the parents of one of the “would be attackers” our Afghani nationals?

  128. Mobius..spotted you on Crikey very early this morning before I clocked into Blogos..excellent work as always.

  129. So in attacking an executive rort Rudd/Swan have eliminated a legitimate benefit? One that helps people gain a stake in the business that employs them.

    Employee share ownership plans have been helpful in aligning the interests of employees with the business, they have assisted many people to gain a degree of savings, a greater asset base then they would otherwise have.

    They have an interest in their business being successful.

    But this government has chosen to undermine this.

  130. Tony,

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/politics/21gitmo.html

    1 in 7 released “innocent goat herders” returns to the fight…

  131. But this government has chosen to undermine this

    No, they just want to tax it…

    And from what I understand, they’re taking rather quick back steps from the whole idea…

  132. I understand Reb, they are backing off.

    It seems to be a characteristic of policy implementation at the moment.

    Announce something half baked, and then back off once some deficiencies and consequences are exposed.

    Great approach, shows rigour in the initial policy development!*****

  133. Why didn’t Faulkner go OS instead of Wong?

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25516586-601,00.html

    If Wong can not handle her portfolio, give it to someone who can!

  134. Announce something half baked, and then back off once some deficiencies and consequences are exposed

    You mean, just like the Lieberal Party?

  135. Loth..catching up. You would have been about 5kms from where we were, along The Pocket Road. Do you remember the house where the bloke had made a fence of cane logs laid horizontally, this was on the low side. It’s still there and yes it still keeps falling over.

  136. Sparta, do you feel like going back to take a look at my responses to your questions on the Friday Frolyk’s thread? You seem to have dropped out just as some interesting stuff surfaced.

    You could start at this comment.

    I had a look at your assertion that “the Constitution only applies to US citizens” and all I find is counter-evidence. There are certainly limits, both in the non-applicability of parts of it to non-citizens, and geographical issues, but it’s clearly not the case that none of the Constitution applies to non-citizens. The same is apparently true for the Bill Of Rights.

    And I pointed out another reason why I kept bringing up the Constitution regarding detainee treatment, a concept which you had indicated was stupid because you assert the Constitution doesn’t apply to non-citizens. Apart from the applicability of parts of it to non-citizens under some circumstances, there are specific legal reasons for it related to the US implementation of the CAT, and (that is probably why) US lawyers keep bringing up certain Amendments.

    I was also curious how you reconciled EITs with your military training teaching you to uphold the Constitution, the Geneva Conventions, and abide by the Army Field Manual?

    And a follow-on – does your answer to that last question change if the detainee was not “picked up on the battlefield”, but was
    (a) forcibly delivered to US forces by his fellow citizens in order to collect a reward from the US?
    (b) kidnapped from a foreign state where US troops are not conducting military action, and delivered to US control?

  137. Yes Reb, just like the Liberal Party.

    Possibly not even as bad as as some of their decisions, but they were hardly a bench mark of good government.

  138. And yes I am still here, but oh so busy, where is the recession we have them coming out of the woodwork for loans.

    Gday to all and will catch up for more comments when the workload settles down.

  139. Hi Shane,

    Nice to see you popping in…

    Yeah, I imagine you’ll be flat out with people locking in loans while interest rates are low…

  140. Oh I don’t know Tom…

    When Bronwyn Bishop had the national health portfolio she wanted to re-introduce cigarette advertising on TV..!!

    Talk about mad as a cut snake…

  141. Must be low interest on credit cards too that is increasing the borrowing.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25516623-12377,00.html

    Live now, pay later is still well alive out there.

    One thing I never saw in the Budget Projections was the allowance for another recession in 2016.

    That’s right, they never see these things coming and when it happens, they panic!

  142. The prerequisite for that “1 in 7 return to the fight” figure is that they were all “in the fight” before their detention. The article appears to be weak on supporting that prerequisite. Maybe the report itself will be more forthcoming.

    Apparently “returned to the fight” can include “associates with or trains with terrorists”. Right at the end they appear to say that of the 74 who constitute the “1 in 7”, only 5 have “engaged in verifiable terrorist activity or have threatened terrorist acts”.

    Anyone want to bet that the Pentagon will also tell us how many people who were “not in the fight” before they were detained at Guantanamo have “joined the fight” since their release?

  143. Smoking was very glamorous, particularly while skiing. I recall that it was favoured by attractive brunettes. We should have more of that type of glamour on TV.

    While they may have a tube through their neck, no teeth and exist in a wheel chair these days, who are we to say that people shouldn’t also see the positive side of smoking?

  144. Lotharsson,

    Oh how politics get’s in the way….Accidently posted on the Friday thread in regards to your last question….

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122731301791449521.html?mod=djemEditorialPage

  145. Loth..just a small addition in agreement with you. The US Constitution clearly relates to all residents of the US. It also relates to all citizens irrespective of whether or not they are on US soil. Therefore an argument could include that although internees at Gitmo were/are neither residents nor on US soil, their captors were/are US citizens. Rendition is where a person is held by neither citizens nor is on US soil. However, the responsibility still rests with US citizens if there is proof that US citizens had custody along the line.

    Another argument might be..if it is a ‘battlefield’ then those captured on the battlefield are enemy forces and therefore come under the Geneva Convention re torture. For example, if they are criminals then their location is not a battlefield. I believe that the French and the Dutch (and other underground civilian forces) during WW2 were treated as criminals as they were not on a battlefield.

    And if they are criminals then they need to be brought promptly to a regular court of law and tried for their crimes…the USA also being a common law country. They cannot be stashed away while rules and laws are fiddled with in order to achieve a conviction.

  146. “Anyone want to bet that the Pentagon will also tell us how many people who were “not in the fight” before they were detained at Guantanamo have “joined the fight” since their release?”

    Yes, that is a much stronger position…LOL…..

  147. As someone who participates in an employee share scheme, I can’t see the wisdom of forcing taxation up front.

    In Australia, that tax is higher than in the US. We value options at the time of grant based on a formula which considers time to expiry and market value of the underlying shares. We then tax this value – so you pay tax whether or not you ever exercise the options. (The US is better in that they value options for up-front taxation purposes based purely on the difference between market value and strike price on the day of grant.)

    The taxation deferral lets you defer taxation until you actually make some money from the options, which is especially useful for those who don’t have a lot of cash now for paying tax on something that may never make them any money.

  148. Min,

    Interesting, perhpas if you ever get into a bit of trouble in Thiland you could just refer to the US Constitution in your defense…..LOL….

  149. Lotharsson,

    “INSURGENTS/ENEMY COMBATANTS” NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT “NON-CITIZENS”……

  150. And before anyone picks me up on it..no I am not saying that the underground WW2 is equivalent to people picked up in Afghanistan, it was a descriptive re ‘a battlefield’. However…if Germany had won WW2 then who knows.

  151. So the government shouldn’t close the loophole then Tom?

    What happened, and which proved it was a rort, was as soon as the government said it would stop the scheme for those earning over $60,000 companies shut down the scheme completely, thus screwing all their workers even those earning up to $60,000.

    There was nothing stopping companies continuing it for their lower paid workers but the companies were the ones who chose not to, purely out of meanness because their executives lost a free overseas holiday each year, or a new plasma etc. on the free government money they got.

    Middle and upper class welfare is slowly being wound back in this country so those receiving it are weaned off it and do what the right and the previous government always say those less well off should do, be independent and don’t rely on the government for everything.

    As to back peddling, I think you should look further into what is being said and what is taking place.

    Also as Reb stated, like the Liberal party, they’re sometimes throwing half baked policies out there and then retracting or making whole scale amendments to them afterwards, which was sop for Howard who hardly got a policy right. That this is happening with Rudd who was originally criticised for being too slow and careful in his policy implementation is a disappointment.

    But now you can see how Rudd can’t win and it’s a conversation I’ve been having on Crikey. It doesn’t matter what Rudd does or how he goes about it, carefully, rushed, good, bad or indifferent, it’s always wrong. The other thing that has been happening, even before Rudd won office, is the utterly banal and inconsequential things that are used to criticise him whilst things of importance that he should be held up short on are overlooked in the race to sling as much bottom muck as possible. In some ways sometimes I hope he loses the next election or steps down to hand over to Gillard just so this utter shit will stop or alleviate. I’ve never seen the likes of it against a PM where even a small gesture to a foreign leader makes headlines as the destruction of all we hold dear in this country and foreign relations with that country are now doomed forever. Of course nothing of the sort happened, but it didn’t stop them going on about it for weeks.

    Are the opposition, their supporters and media mouthpieces now so bereft of any intelligence, lucid debating points and cogent thought that they must continuously engage in low brow mud slinging in the smallest hope something will one day stick for all of a nanosecond?

  152. Sparta, I am certain where ever US citizens reside that they adhere as best they are able to the tenets of the US Constitution. This of course is what has caused so much grief re Gitmo. Many and I should imagine most US citizens do believe in promoting the general welfare and in securing the blessings of liberty.

  153. Sparta, you and me both – I accidentally posted a response to your Friday Frolyk’s post in a different thread!

    OK, point taken – you meant “insurgents” and “enemy combatants” rather than purely “non-citizens”.

    So please clarify your terms – what is an “insurgent” and what is an “enemy combatant”?

    Then please clarify how it is determined that an individual falls into those categories.

    Then please clarify what laws and regulations you think do and don’t apply to the treatment of such individuals, distinguishing between those
    (a) captured on a battlefield
    (b) turned over to US forces for reward in a country where US forces are operating
    (c) kidnapped from a 3rd country where the US is not on a “battlefield” and turned over to the US.

    Oh, and Eric Holder’s argument from 2002 that you referenced in that WSJ link? I believe
    (a) your Supreme Court subsequently said the Geneva Conventions apply to detainees captured overseas
    (b) Since Mohammad Atta was in the US at the time, if he had survived he would have been arrested and tried under the laws of the US, just like other terrorists captured in the US who were tried, convicted and have been safely incarcerated in the US for 10+ years. The question of the Geneva Convention would never have arisen. It’s a shocking red herring for Holder to be waving around.

  154. Traditionally the ALP always screws up the taxation policy when trying to reduce executive perks.

    ESPs are the current example.

    A couple of decades ago it was when they came up with the FBT. In their original policy, they forgot that it wasn’t just executives that got fringe benefits. Disaster and confusion followed. It took a lot of effort and various back downs to get it to a point were it was acceptable.

    Then they had the short lived no negative gearing policy. Disaster followed by back down.

    Here we go again.

  155. But the Libs have also screwed up taxation when they deliberately allowed loopholes in taxation policy.

    The most famous was Howard’s Bottom of the Harbour in the 80’s, still arguably the greatest taxation cock-up in our history, which cost the government (taxpayers) a lot of money at a time they needed it.

    There have been other cases since. Liberals back in power, here we go again.

  156. Min, I think it’s pretty clear that if it’s a battlefield then normal war laws apply. And the Geneva Conventions are pretty clear – EVERYONE falls under either the 3rd or 4th Convention. (Go and read a few comments either side of the one I liked to earlier on the Friday Frolyk’s thread).

    The Geneva Conventions also have a concept of an “unlawful combatant” – note carefully the difference between that and the US term “enemy combatant”. The Conventions point out that any unlawful combatant must be detained, charged and tried under the domestic laws of the country within which their unlawful activities took place. There is also legal precedent pointing out that one of the Conventions applies even to “unlawful combatants”. No-one falls through the cracks.

    The problem is that the US basically said “bugger that”. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to call it a war on a battlefield when it suits them, but pretend it’s not when someone points out they’re not following the relevant laws. Similarly, they want Guantanamo to be under US control, but pretend that it’s Cuban controlled when it’s pointed out that abusive treatment of prisoners in territory under US control is prohibited both by domestic and international law.

  157. Arlen Specter, former Republican chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, admits the CIA has a poor record with honesty.

  158. But now you can see how Rudd can’t win and it’s a conversation I’ve been having on Crikey. It doesn’t matter what Rudd does or how he goes about it, carefully, rushed, good, bad or indifferent, it’s always wrong.

    Yes, Adrian, but that will even itself up, because there are others – like yourself – who are willing to defend anything and everything Rudd does. (Crikey? Would’t be the Bolt-obsessed poisoneers, by any chance?)

  159. I too wish that the PM will either lose the election or hand over to Gillard?

    Keating and Latham were spot on with their descriptions of the PM.

    The way I see it there is talent in the ranks of both parties but that will never eventuate as the party machines suppress their aspirations to a point of they’re lucky enough to obtain preselection, little lone getting a seat on either front bench…although I can name a few.

    So people want a republic with the under performers we have now?

    I say lets do it the French way and banish the rot to the gutters of society where they belong!

  160. [Scroll on by…how to counter blatant fear-mongering]

    That’s the way you need to make the point to those quaking in their boots about bringing Guantanamo inmates to the US:

    Some of my Republican colleagues argue that Guantanamo is the only appropriate place to hold the detainees and they said, and I quote, “We don’t have a facility that could handle this in the United States,” end of quote. And American prison guards, they went on to say, quote, “have no idea what they’re getting into,” close quote. Well, I would just say to my colleagues who made those statements, you ought to take a look at some of our security facilities in the United States, and you ought to have a little more respect for the men and women who are corrections officers and put their lives on the line every single day to keep us safe and to make sure that those who are dangerous are detained and incarcerated. The reality is that we’re holding some of the most dangerous terrorists in the world right now in our federal prisons, including the mastermind of the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, the shoe bomber, the Unibomber, and many others.

  161. What a load of crap Tony.

    Here we see your exaggeration, misdirection and outright disingenuousness, and you dare intimate that Rudd was untruthful.

  162. No not Bolt obsessed at all. And if you have been there as it appears you have then you would know that. Read that blogs charter, but of course holding right wing nuts to being open, honest and ingenuous is just not on is it Tony, they must be allowed to lie, racially slur, incite hatred etc. without recrimination. After all it is only the left that must be held to account for anything, even if that means raking muck, slinging mud and making mountains out of molehills to do so.

  163. “raking muck, slinging mud and making mountains out of molehills to do so.”

    Rudd went to a strip club.

  164. You know Tom, you are right Rudd went to a strip club, had too much to drink, immediately phoned the wife. And the problem is…?

  165. Here we see your exaggeration, misdirection and outright disingenuousness

    Careful you don’t use up your whole bullsh*t allowance first day back, Adrian.

    and you dare intimate that Rudd was untruthful.

    I think you’re mixing me up with Tom.

    / How quickly they forget.

  166. Sorry Tony..I think that I am guilty of that too. Apologies for the previous mixup.

  167. Mobias, I thought the ‘Bottom of the Harbour Scheme’ was first detected in the Whitlam era.

    I haven’t got the time to research which government actually opened the way but here is a link.

    http://www.aic.gov.au:80/publications/lcj/wayward/ch9t.html

  168. No not Bolt obsessed at all.

    That first sentence sets the tone nicely for the rest of your comment – delusional.

  169. Min, I’m confused…I’m sure the PM said at the time that he was too drunk to remember but he remembers phoning his wife immediately?

    Must have been a sobering experience.

  170. I am sure that you’re confused scaper. Rudd was too drunk to remember what? That’s right, what the popular press journos were trying to set him up for.

  171. Well Mobius Ecko firstly middle class welfare. Rudd and everyone else with reasonable sense knew that this required reform.

    But rather than own up to a reform agenda, Rudd chose to go with promises and solid guarantees. He then expediently walked away from those commitments.

    He chose this unsatisfactory path, he has to put up with the criticism.

    I can’t recall suggesting that the previous government was a benchmark of effective government. So your comparisons that essentially suggest “they did it too and often”, really don’t do anything to advance a discussion. It is a very lame defence of a lack of rigour and ministerial competence.

  172. Min, I’m positive I heard it from his mouth on TV which made me raise an eyebrow at the time.

  173. Rudd said he was too drunk to remember seeing a stripper in a strip club.

    He must have been too drunk to open his eyes, because they are fairly difficult to miss.

    And this was while we were paying for his excursion.

    Brumby thinks that people that actually see strippers should apologise, re educated etc.

    Lucky then that Rudd didn’t see any.

  174. Tom

    That is a misrepresentation of what Brumby said. His issue, as I understand it, was that a stripper should not have been brought into a sporting organisation as a motivation.

    And we did not pay for his excursion as he was not in government at the time and so the trip was not paid for by the taxpayer.

    But then, you still want to harp on about a totally non-issue (Rudd/Strip Club) because you think that it will gain traction.

  175. No Joni, I harp on about this because of the rank hypocrisy by Brumby.

    The fact that Rudd was less than completely honest is only incidental to the enjoyment.

    http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,22268275-5001021,00.html

  176. Tom..the setup was. Were you in a strip club. Ans: Yes. Qu: Now tell us what you saw. Ans: Can’t remember. Now if you blokes are too naive to see a set up…

    Ok, sauce for the goose. I am certain that you men of the world have been to a strip club. Now relate to your wife/missus/partner what you saw.

    What was that which Mobias stated, about muck raking in order to avoid real issues.

  177. “I am certain that you men of the world have been to a strip club. Now relate to your wife/missus/partner what you saw.”

    Why bother, she was sitting next to me!

  178. Oh c’mon Tom, using a Tom Milne article, and avowed Rudd hater and Rudd muck raker. Or are you one and the same Tom?

    That article is full of “it is alleged”, “unnamed sources stated”, “it is understood” etc.

    As soon as a journalist uses those and similar throughout their article you know they are muck raking and have little of substance to go on, which is exactly what you are doing Tom, for your “enjoyment”.

    Strange and sad way of getting jollies if you ask me.

  179. From the news.com.au site –

    Mr Brumby said earlier today the incident was an “appalling example to set young people and to set families”.

    “It’s just completely inappropriate behaviour and one of the things that we’re trying to do in Victoria is encourage young people to play sport, to take up sport and you open the paper today and you read about a football club that got a stripper in before a game, it’s absolutely, completely unacceptable and inappropriate and it sends all the wrong messages.’’

    Yes, Mr Brumby is quite right. But I hope he doesn’t worry too much about the example it sets to families and young people when their political leaders get drunk and do the same thing.

    By this standard he obviously doesn’t want young people to consider a career in politics.

  180. Tony, on May 21st, 2009 at 2:35 pm Said:

    That first sentence sets the tone nicely for the rest of your comment – delusional.

    Blind as ever Tony and so narrow minded a fish in a bowl has a wider view of the world. Also a sidestep as usual. Some things never change no matter how long you are away for.

    Sorry mixed you up but the untruthful bit holds for you just was well.

  181. Mobias, I thought the ‘Bottom of the Harbour Scheme’ was first detected in the Whitlam era

    .

    Howard as treasurer was often credited with creating the tax policy that allowed the scheme but that isn’t correct.

    Howard’s failing was that in speaking out against the practice he did little to stop it and it increased substantially under the Fraser government. Howard to this day blames Fraser for that failure.

    The real strengthening of the Tax Office to combat this and other tax rorts of the time came after 1986.

    Also the Royal Commission on the Activities of the Federated Ship Painters and Dockers Union in 1982 was mostly a farce.

  182. Also the Royal Commission on the Activities of the Federated Ship Painters and Dockers Union in 1982 was mostly a farce.

    As was the Cole RC into the Building Industry

    As were the ‘Inquiries’ that you have when you don’t want the powers of a RC to come near your grubby little secrets
    -children overboard
    -AWB kickbacks

    Talking of AWB, wasn’t there a figure of $300million involved? – a lot of money which could have been useful in these hard times!

  183. No muck raking here ME.

    This issue came up again, admittedly I introduced it, because Brumby displayed “rank hypocrisy” in his criticism of an amateur footy team.

    Brumby was seeking to get a bit of political mileage out of a tabloid beat up. If his interest is in encouraging young people to play sport, then ipso facto, he can’t be too interested in having then consider a political career.

    Rudd’s behaviour is old news, he found it convenient to say he was too drunk to remember. This was an easier, expedient response than having to put up with the annoying questions that the behaviour may have warranted – we were after all paying his way.

    For the information of Min, I’ve been to a few strip clubs with mates, but never with professional colleagues

  184. Tom

    Again – for the record – we did not pay for Rudd’s trip when he went to NY and the strip club. He was not in government and therefore the trip was NOT paid for by the paxpayer.

  185. Really Joni? Are you certain????

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22268123-2,00.html

    This report says in part – “It was revealed yesterday that Mr Rudd visited Scores gentlemen’s club in Manhattan in 2003 with fellow Labor MP Warren Snowdon and New York Post editor Col Allan during a taxpayer-funded trip when he was opposition foreign affairs spokesman.”

  186. Many years ago I was invited to attend a fundraiser for junior RL club somewhere south of botany bay. OK, there were no kids there, and just as well. They had a mattress on the floor and, after finally getting the booze flowing, 2 girls came in, stripped off and the nominated blokes lined up and waited their turn. Curious thing was the ‘event’ was held in a police boys club. What was I doing there? Well if it wasn’t for me there would have been nothing to drink!

  187. “He was not in government and therefore the trip was NOT paid for by the paxpayer.”

    Joni

    I had never heard this before. He was a member of parliament (in opposition) at the time. I thought he was on a taxpayer funded trip representing Australia at the UN. Got a link for your claim??

  188. He was not in government and therefore the trip was NOT paid for by the paxpayer.

    And did he pay the entry/door fee and drinks out of his own pocket or from taxpayer funds? Even if the trip was taxpayer funded, I’m sure going to a strip joint was not his sole reason for taking the trip.

    Oh shit! Our Piers Akerman Tom’s been misleading us for weeks about that, he’s been absolutely obsessed with getting someone, anyone, even remotely interested in the topic.

    Time to fall upon your sword tom!

  189. Good grief Tom re: Rudd’s behaviour is old news, he found it convenient to say he was too drunk to remember.

    What is it that you want Rudd to remember? What spicy details are you trying to discover?

  190. Kittylitter, have a look at my link.

    I’ll then wait for a retraction from Joni******

    *see previous definition

  191. Handyrab, that sounds like Sutherland Police Boys Club in the sixties.

  192. Anyone see this? US banks are buying life insurance policies against their employees, and using the proceeds to fund executive bonuses and pensions.

    That’s not a good look.

  193. Doesn’t matter whether Rudd was on a taxpayer-funded trip or not. What anyone on a business trip does after hours on their own dime is their own affair. (That said, for a politician to do it shows a lack of political judgement…)

    It _would_ matter if the taxpayers funded his strip club expenses. I don’t recall seeing any suggestion this was the case.

  194. “What anyone on a business trip does after hours on their own dime is their own affair.”

    Does that go for footballers too???

  195. Scaper, no it wasn’t Sutherland but I think it might have been around San Souci, and it was in the mid seventies. To be honest it was one of the most boring nights I’ve had (no pun intended). They stuffed up the tapping of the kegs (which I repaired) and the food was crap!

  196. handyrab, on May 21st, 2009 at 4:38 pm Said:

    There used to be a Police Boys Club at Rockdale.

    Long gone I think !

  197. [Scroll on by…Republicans afraid of everything? Detainees already have some constitutional rights. Some people want Guantanamo inmates in their prisons.]

    Greenwald – is there anything Republicans aren’t afraid of? And he gives Democratic politicians a big serve for being afraid too.

    And especially for Sparta, Greenwald reiterates in “Update III” of that article that the Supreme Court ruled last year that Guantanamo detainees have the constitutional privilege of habeas corpus.

    And the town of Hardin reckons bringing Guantanamo inmates to their empty gaol would be great.

  198. The only club in that area is St George at Rockdale that used to be at Hurstville when I was a member.

    I was into Judo because I was bullied when I was ten by two guys at school…my father sent me there.

    I’ll just say that no one ever bullied me again!

  199. Blind as ever Tony and so narrow minded a fish in a bowl has a wider view of the world. Also a sidestep as usual. Some things never change no matter how long you are away for.

    Glad you’re back Adrian – I’ve been missing your hilarious logical contortions and ‘creative’ reasoning.

  200. Scaps..re judo. Son was Victorian judo champion (open division). Son’s coach was Mr No who was Korean judo champion (Olympic).

  201. Yeah just checked the map. Rockdale looks right. Certainly not Sutherland.

  202. Lotharson – the point I originally made, was that Brumby was stupid in his opportunistic criticism of the footy club.

    His statements represented double standards. He failed to consider the behaviour of the (now) PM before he opened his trap.

    This past behaviour of Rudd, and his candour neglect, is incidental to the issue of just-how-dumb-is-Brumby.

  203. And the town of Hardin reckons bringing Guantanamo inmates to their empty gaol would be great.

    Who’s their senator – one of the six (or the 90)?

  204. ToM and Neil, Rudd went to a strip club. He didn’t organise a stripper to attend his accommodation he didn’t organise a stripper for a sports or other club, nor did he organise strippers at the club he attended.

    He went to the strip club as a private citizen on his own time, got pissed and went home. He may have bunged some money in a Gstring or not; it’s not our business unless it was on company time or taxpayers’ money.

    So what he did in fact bears no comparison to the football club affair Brumby’s whinging about. There’s also no evidence that he used taxpayer funds to go to Scores, nor that he had a hand in the organisation of the entertainment there. Get over it!

    BTW, I’ll be suprised if there haven’t been a few boozy outings where your recall is fuzzy to non-existant. Be honest ToM, or we’ll have to tell the mistress you’ve been seeing other strippers!

  205. Scaper,

    “What anyone on a business trip does after hours on their own dime is their own affair.”

    Does that go for footballers too???

    Good point.

  206. Neil and Tom,

    Apologies – I understood that non-government members of parliament had to fund their own overseas trips unless it was a study-tour.

    I will try and get some confirmation as to whether the trip to NY was a study-trip or not.

  207. [Scroll on by…judge rejects locking people up without charges merely for supporting Al Qaeda]

    That will likely prove controversial in some quarters, but then at one time locking people up indefinitely with no charges used to be controversial.

    Bates said he pressed the Justice Department to explain why rendering assistance to Al Qaeda was enough to lock someone up without criminal charges.

    “After repeated attempts by the Court to elicit a more definitive justification for the ‘substantial support’ concept in the law of war, it became clear that the government has none,”…

    The judge also found that Al Qaeda or Taliban membership (without direct participation in hostilities) was sufficient justification to hold detainees without charges.

    This is the same judge who ruled that the US has similar control over Bagram detention facilities as it does Guantanamo, and therefore the constitutional privilege of habeas corpus extends to (at least) some detainees held there. The detainees bringing this case claim to have been abducted or arrested in other countries and brought to Bagram.

  208. Jane, my mistress’ name is LouLou Von Hump, and she is no stripper. She is a former artistic model and exotic dancer.

    Please refrain from characterising her as cheap. She is very expensive.

  209. This is why Brumby is a dill. Which is the current issue.

    A group of grown men are publically chastised by the Premier for being in a room with a stripper that they didn’t organise, they have to get re educated, their club gets fined …

    According to Brumby this was an – “appalling example to set young people and to set families”.

    “It’s just completely inappropriate behaviour and one of the things that we’re trying to do in Victoria is encourage young people to play sport, to take up sport and you open the paper today and you read about a football club that got a stripper in before a game, it’s absolutely, completely unacceptable and inappropriate and it sends all the wrong messages.’’

    http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25497668-661,00.html

    A couple of years ago, this is what he said when quizzed in relation to Rudd’s visit to a strip club –

    John Brumby suggested strip clubs were the only reason people visited Sydney.

    “The last time I attended a strip place would have probably been in the 1970s, when I was a student, I think if my memory’s correct it was probably in Sydney,” he said.

    “It was with a group of mates, male and female, I can’t remember the name of the place.”

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22268123-2,00.html

    While Brumby might have been right about the reasons people visit Sydney, his comments don’t show much in the way of outrage for the example this sets for families and the young.

    He is a dill.

  210. Glad you’re back Adrian – I’ve been missing your hilarious logical contortions and ‘creative’ reasoning.

    Your come backs are lamer than ever I notice, so some things do change.

    That’s as bad as “…well back at you double.”

  211. [Scroll on by…Looks like the Spanish government is seeking to pass new legislation reneging on its “universal jurisdiction” rights and responsibilities under the CAT].

    It’s a non-professional translation of a Spanish article, with commentary.

    And so…little by little, institutionalized torture and abusive treatment is legitimized once more.

  212. Does that go for footballers too???

    Good point.

    Stupid point.

  213. …the point I originally made, was that Brumby was stupid in his opportunistic criticism of the footy club.

    You may well be right, but saying it does not make it so. I don’t think you’ve made a convincing case yet.

    His statements represented double standards. He failed to consider the behaviour of the (now) PM before he opened his trap.

    This past behaviour of Rudd, and his candour neglect, is incidental to the issue of just-how-dumb-is-Brumby.

    Surely Brumby’s criticism cannot represent double standards if Rudd’s behaviour is irrelevant or incidental.

  214. Here we go again…so it is more important that a sportsman sets a good example rather than a possibly PM?

    WOW!!!

  215. What anyone on a business trip does after hours on their own dime is their own affair.

    Tony, that was me, not scaper.

    And yes, it goes for footballers too. Far too much media coverage of what they get up to as individuals on their own time and own dime. If they go to strip clubs on their own time and own dime, that’s their private choice.

    Bringing a stripper to a football _club_ function is a bit more dicey. It looks like an official condoned association between the stripper and the sport/the club, not with personal choices made by the individuals. And given that sport has a big following amongst the under-age population, perhaps that explains some of Brumby’s concern.

  216. Utterly stupid point kitty and the attempt to compare an apple with a pear is also ludicrous.

    But this is what debate against Labor governments and especially Rudd has degenerated into. Instead of focusing on the things that really do matter and the stuff ups that are important to everyone they have devolved into this form of utter pettiness and attempt to couch it as the most important thing in the whole country at the moment, even dragging up old well and truly buried bones to pick on as a prop to their pettiness.

    It’s all so sad to see that people who can be lucid debaters at times for some unfathomable reason have fallen to this low level.

    The irony is the more they do this the more it fails to do what they believe it should and the more it backfires. As I have said several times this negatively reflects more on those engaging in the pettiness than it does on those whom they are attempting to put down with their petty denigrations.

  217. Lotharsson,

    This past behaviour of Rudd, and his candour neglect

    LOL. Never heard it put quite that way before. Is that like mis-speaking?

  218. Lotharsson

    Bringing a stripper to a football _club_ function is a bit more dicey. It looks like an official condoned association between the stripper and the sport/the club, not with personal choices made by the individuals.

    Also the club president has refused to say whether or not the club has done this before, in other words refused to say this was the first and only time they had bought strippers to the club.

  219. Also the club president has refused to say whether or not the club has done this before, in other words refused to say this was the first and only time they had bought strippers to the club.

    Refused to say to whom? A reporter? How dare he?

  220. Many points taken Mobius. And hoping not to be too trivial..have to now choof due to dinner duties.

  221. Hey! Mobius Ecko!

    Glad to read you! Clever non de plume, I remember the discussion re gekko … 😀

  222. Tony, trial by media, yet again!

  223. Oh my god Tony, you have a go at Rudd on reporters innuendos and hearsay because he doesn’t answer the way they want him to yet stick up for a minor league football president when he wouldn’t answer a simple direct question, “Is this the first time you have bought strippers to the club?”

    Point noted Tony and I hope you carry it through to reporters and opinion writers doing the same thing.

  224. Tom of Melbourne, on May 21st, 2009 at 5:17 pm Said:

    “Jane, my mistress’ name is LouLou Von Hump, and she is no stripper. She is a former artistic model and exotic dancer.

    Please refrain from characterising her as cheap. She is very expensive.”

    How dare you imply that I have characterised Ms Von Hump as cheap in any way shape or form, sir!!

    In fact, she and I were having a lively discussion about jobism and breast ehancements, (yes, sorry to say they’re pump-up jobs) just the other day, as we strolled through Big Kev’s Sex Toys and Liquor Emporium Brazillian Wax Jobs by Appointment Only.

    She was complaining that you never take her anywhere except the local footy club after training. Tears trickled down her glossy cheeks as she described the shoddy latex crutchless knickers you gave her for her birthday.

    “They weren’t even my favourite colour!” she wailed as she siphoned down a retrospectively taxed alcopop. Unfortunately, I blurted that you probably didn’t know what her favourite colour was. I could have cut out my tongue-could have but didn’t.

    If she has seemed a little cool with you lately, I suggest you buy her some hot puce satin sheets-you know the really shiny ones and tell her you just love her favourite colour!

  225. Dunno if this has already been put up here but it’s definitely worth a consideration re “our greatest ally”.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25515023-601,00.html

    Of course you’ve probably seen it at PP Mobius. Very, VERY glad to see you back! Had no idea that that was you over there mate.

  226. Jane..a good giggle. I’ve always hated satin sheets as one tends to slide off the end of the bed.

  227. Pretty dumb of me to assume that you wouldn’t have already been onto that link hey Mobius!? (I just read back up the thread).

    Teh Bush Years, the legacy that keeps on vomiting up the truth behind the misinformation.

    I know I already said it but it’s damn good to see ya again.

  228. Min,

    I’ve never liked satin either.

    In fact, it’s really only befitting for “sluts” or the sort of thing Ms Von Hump might wear while lounging around the household mixing martini’s and smoking “More” cigars..

  229. lol, Von Hump.

  230. Ms Von Hump, although fast & easy would probably never be seen dead in a hoon car.

  231. Back on the Stricp club/Brothel episode. Mr Showponys prime witness actually contradicts Showponys testimony.

    I have never heard anything like this. The manager of a strip club/ brothel says that one of his customers behaved in an impecible manner. Strip Club managers never say who has been to there clubs otherwise no-one would go.

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22282564-11949,00.html

    “THE owner of a New York City strip club visited by Kevin Rudd says the opposition leader left as soon as he realised what sort of entertainment was on offer there.”

    So Showpony “realised” it was a strip club. If he “realised’ he therefore was not drunk

  232. If he “realised’ he therefore was not drunk

    Interesting. My understanding, and I stand to be corrected, was that the PM wasn’t legless, and had been invited to the club by his companions, but when he realised it was a strip club thought “this is not a good look” and then left.

    Even I’ve been to a strip club, gentleman’s luncheon club at the bequest of some business colleagues and naturally I found it to be a big yawn…

  233. OMG Neil – how could we have not known about this issue before! This is outrageous. Ring the bells, surround the wagons, protect the women and children!

    A story from 2007 about an event that occured in 2003.

    How could we have possibly elected a man like this to power?

    I know – because it does not matter.

    As Bob Brown said, Howard went to war against a country for ficticious reasons and had cabinet members who missed the fact that we were bribing Saddam – but the most important thing for the RWBD is that Rudd got drunk, went to a strip club and lied.

  234. reb – that’s because the entertainment is not meant for people like you and me 😉

  235. that’s because the entertainment is not meant for people like you and me

    This is true joni.

    However I was nonethless, impressed by the remarkable versatility displayed by one young lady on our “lazy susan” table centrepiece….

  236. and let’s just say that the expression on my face was very similar to that on my current avatar!

  237. Toiletboss, on May 21st, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    My skin always “crawled” whenever I saw/heard Rumsfeldt, a nasty, nasty creature – would have fitted nicely with the Nazi SS…and should be treated to his “end” as such…

  238. Hi TB. WT clink!

    Yeah, Rumsfeld is a piece of work, conveniently missing from the contemporary RWDB lexicon these days; hardly a mascot of distinction as he was once lauded.
    Anyone who’s had an awareness of his back-catalogue of ruthless positioning & shapeshifting in Republican Admin’s would not be surprised to learn this latest snippet. Same goes for Cheney, Wolfowitz, Pearle etc. . Always holding the marionette’s strings just out of shot.
    Doubt that we’ll ever see any of them brought to heel, let alone noosed. Not that I condone noosing at all, ever. Left to rot, with only the televangelist channel on 24hrs a day would be suffice.

  239. Looking forward to Thomas of Melbourne’s weekly dissection of the AFL with a side dish of contempt & jagged barbs tomorrow.
    The NRL has been interesting over the last week or so, perhaps he might dip his hat into rubbishing the cauliflower people.

  240. Yes Toiletboss, and I liked your stuff there.

    There is also a link to recently released highly classified intelligence briefings for Rumsfeld that were all couched in religious undertones and put the upcoming invasion of Iraq as a crusade. It was sickening stuff and makes you wonder what if these loonies had one day taken over the asylum.

    WMD no, fighting terrorism no, ridding a (secular) dictator no, oil yes, strategic positioning yes, but most of all a religious war with a puppet leader in power who believed in gog and magog, and who told Chirac God had told him to invade Iraq.

  241. 15 teams for the NRL next year I hear.

  242. This isn’t meant to be a dogwhistle although I realise I have zilch credibility in this area.

    I imagine most here have noticed the condemning report on the Catholic Church in Ireland today?
    Having attended such a boarding “home” just over the border for 4 years I have a little insight into this. I always heard the rumors (I was one of the very few heathens expected to kneel for a blessing but not allowed “holy” wafer or Teh blood) but never took ’em seriously & certainly never had any “questionable” priestly encounters personally. I thought it was a bit of a meme, obviously happened but not widespread. I was well treated.
    But…I heard tonight that the Catholic Church in Melbourne has dealt with 400+ cases of abuse in the last 12 years alone; settled outside of court(SBS World News I think).
    I was surprised, it’s 17 years since I was there. Recently I’ve heard from a few others who were there at the same time that one of our Head Master’s was done for abuse both before he was at our school & at the school he went to afterwards. I don’t know if this is true, but given the nature of cover-ups which appear to be systemic the more that the surface is scratched I gotta say the mind is boggling. Nasty stuff.

    Celibacy is a difficult thing to program apparently.
    We are but animals with opposing thumbs & the gift of speech; our urges remain.

  243. Stupid thing Toiletboss is the Catholic church wasn’t always celibate and Popes used to marry. Celibacy wasn’t bought in for any religious reasons but because the church was afraid it had less control over someone who had a spouse, the spouse supposedly having more influence.

    As with most things, like the Ascension which only came about because a Pope dreamt it, the Church is just a jumble of mumbo jumbo made up as it went along and nearly always more for male power than for any real religious reasoning.

  244. Have you noticed my presence @ Bolt’s Mobius?

    I’ve worked out that if you REALLY tone down the rhetoric, you sometimes can get posted…um, abridged. Then the horde swoop in & you’re able to attempt rebuttal against an onslaught of inanity & the occasional intelligent counter response.

    I have a memorable screen name.

  245. reb, on May 21st, 2009 at 6:40 pm Said:

    “Min,

    I’ve never liked satin either.

    In fact, it’s really only befitting for “sluts” or the sort of thing Ms Von Hump might wear while lounging around the household mixing martini’s and smoking “More” cigars..”

    reb, are you impugning Ms Von Hump’s impeccable reputation? Well, I suppose she’s ToM’s mistress after all, so her taste is definitely questionable. No wonder she likes hot puce satin and alcopops.

    Neil, what now? You’re outraged because Kevin Rudd wasn’t falling down drunk and burying his face in some surgically enhanced bosomy substances?

    Rudd wasn’t leader of the opposition in 2003 when the alleged incident took place, so the “reported” fawning and “importance” of the blonde guy with glasses seem to be as
    realistic as Ms Von Hump’s busty substances.

    Perhaps Kevin03 did have one more retrospectively-taxed alcopop than he should have and thought he was blind. Must have been the disco balls and the spotlights.

    Maybe he should have invaded Iraq instead of going to Scores. Better a warmonger than a visitor to a “gentleman’s club”, eh?

  246. You know Tom, you are right Rudd went to a strip club, had too much to drink, immediately phoned the wife. And the problem is…?

    Min, the problem for Tom was that Rudd WON the election. This is a sore point for Tom and one that he has difficulty adjusting to. Can’t you tell by the insecurity in his ramblings on this site?

    Tom, Howard is never coming back and the unions are still with us.

    Adrian, so pleased to see you here again. Have you been watching us from the sidelines?

  247. Rudd wasn’t leader of the opposition in 2003 when the alleged incident took place,
    Jane

    But he was leader of the opposition when he lied about it in 2007. Furthermore it looks like the ALP got the manager of the brothel to come out and tell a pack of lies to make Showpony look better.

    Australians have obviously forgiven him for this. But they would not do this for a coalition MP

  248. scaper…, on May 21st, 2009 at 12:17 pm

    An interesting insight into how ‘homegrown terrorists’ come to be, Scaper. I found paragraphs 8 – 11 and footnote 4 (particularly the pivotal transition period described from the end of paragraph 10 to the beginning of paragraph 11) illuminating. Without the FBI’s determined interventions, once again, to halt a sophisticated conspiracy coming to fruition, the highly resourceful jihadis may well have achieved their perverse anti-American aims of deploying one or more WMDs (see paragraph 22). Admittedly, I had been waiting to see when the other shoe would drop for a few days now. And now that it has, I can place my mind at rest about the security of America being in the safe hands of those who must remain eternally vigilant and who would not underestimate the continuing threats posed to all American citizens; and particularly to those citizens of the State of New York happening to comprise one of the USA’s largest populations of one its more cohesive and most politically active and influential sub-communities who were so recently made unfair target (see paragraphs 12 and 21) by ‘homegrown terrorists’ seeking to enact the received ideologies of designated terrorist organisation, ‘FBI-Jaish-e-Mohammed’.

    And I see my mate, Sparta, has already shifted onto the heavy work of deconstructing the press release, and not ‘the context’ of the complaint, so it best fits his rants. Good for him. Paragraph 9 of the Complaint almost seems like it was written for his edification about the hows and whys of ‘goatherders’ coming to take up arms again and again. (Sadly, neither document appears for download in the link you provided, Scaper; that story has now been ‘updated’ to better reflect the unfolding narrative or the press release, so only Sparta’s and my links to the original documents remain for any interested.)

    Mind you, the press release does at least sign off with a timely reminder for some budding prosecutors and/or members of law(s) reform commissions jostling for possession of the ball, here and on other threads, about the ABCs of the rule of law, for criminal law, at least: “The charges contained in the Complaint are merely accusations and the defendant is presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty.”

  249. Mobius at 847pm

    Actually celibacy was brought in to stop religious dynasties. If they could not marry and/or breed, then their would be no heirs to pass the fortune to, which meant that they would not get involved in nepotism.

  250. “But he was leader of the opposition when he lied about it in 2007. Furthermore it looks like the ALP got the manager of the brothel to come out and tell a pack of lies to make Showpony look better.

    Australians have obviously forgiven him for this. But they would not do this for a coalition MP”

    Oh, now it’s a brothel. Interesting jump, Neil. Any proof, apart from your over-heated imagination and unreasoning hatred of Kevin Rudd? And indulge me further, how would the ALP pressure the manager of a New York strip club into telling porkies?And why would he/she bother to lie for an Australian politician?

    Lying and being forgiven. How about never, ever GST, children overboard, WMDs and the Haneef affair for starters.

    I’d say they are all lies which have had far more serious consequences for a lot more people than whether a politician went to a strip club, got pissed and left it. Get over it Neil, you’re on a loser.

  251. And indulge me further, how would the ALP pressure the manager of a New York strip club into telling porkies?
    jane

    Thats a good point. But these sorts of managers do not say who visits their clubs. Why did he do it???

    “Any proof, apart from your over-heated imagination and unreasoning hatred of Kevin Rudd?”

    Well i read it on Andrew Bolt

    “Police saw more at Scores than Rudd says he did:

    The Scores chain took a big hit this year when its West Side club lost its liquor licence after a police raid resulted in prostitution charges. Undercover police were offered oral sex and “more exotic acts” for $300 to $1100.

    http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/the_one_business_he_couldnt_save/

    ” How about never, ever GST, children overboard, WMDs and the Haneef affair for starters”

    YAWN

  252. Rudd in a strip club, YAWN.

  253. Wait a minute Neil – so it was not the same club that Rudd went to? So why did you say that Rudd went to a brothel?

  254. joni, on May 21st, 2009 at 10:07 pm Said:

    which meant that they would not get involved in nepotism.

    Beg to disagree. It’s a bit more complicated than that.

    As a concept ‘nepotism’ shouldn’t be limited to offspring but applies also to ‘family’ and the family obligation in the nepotism sense certainly applied in the historical past.

    The concept of ‘cardinal-nephew’, for example, has a long history. For example, Pope Clement VI (1342–1352) created a whole bunch of cardinal-nephews including including six on September 20, 1342.

    Yes I know they were all meritorious appointments. Lol.

    Nevertheless I agree that the church powers that be didn’t want ‘assets’ to be diluted through inheritance.

  255. N5 – I actually paused over that word…. I knew it was not the right one.

    But, as you say, the concept was inheritance.

  256. Joni, I was simply ‘nit-picking’ Lol. Anyone who has read a little history of ‘The Church’ will soon understand their ‘flexibility’ when it comes to any intellectual position.

    Why they even had a female Bishop. Check out Brigid Of Kildare.

  257. Well what a kerfuffle, I’ve been out supporting our vital hospitality industry with Lou.Lou Von Hump and her twin sister FiFi.

    Jane, LouLou has never had any breast enhancement, she has had some silicon augmentation but only for reasons of self esteem. She says that given her customer base as an “artiste”, she needs lots of self esteem. And for what it is worth I’m willing to kick in to for an ever increasing size of self esteem.

    For the record Jane, the 3 of us think satin sheets are passé. Glad Wrap make a .very nice line in plastic, and the lubricant is not wasted. It can be funnelled back into the Tupperware.

    LouLou says she is into recycling. Heaven knows what it is that she keeps in the fridge.

  258. ROFL Tom…. the Glad Warp was inspired.

  259. [Scroll on by…a psychologist’s analysis of some mechanisms and principles that lead a nation to torture as policy.]

    Particularly note the concept that “enemies are nothing” and “national survival is everything”…and the linkage to Erikson’s Developmental Stages (or the lack of them) is very interesting.

  260. [Scroll on by…humorous and very rude skewering of those quaking in their boots that detainees might be sent to US maximum security prisons]

    The Rude Pundit on what America should fear more than detainees in prison. Very good point. Just don’t complain I didn’t warn you it was very rude.

  261. [Scroll on by…Obama said to be considering “preventive detention”.]

    Obama said to be mulling “preventive detention“.

    President Obama told human rights advocates at the White House on Wednesday that he was mulling the need for a “preventive detention” system that would establish a legal basis for the United States to incarcerate terrorism suspects who are deemed a threat to national security but cannot be tried, two participants in the private session said.

    Anyone read any dystopian political or sci-fi classics in the past? Who’d have thought they’d be mining those for actual ideas.

  262. [Scroll on by…The Torture 13 – those who crafted the policy, who they are, what they did.]

    This is a compact overview, full of supporting links, by a talented tenacious investigator. It shows how even the OLC memos don’t cover their activities.

  263. [Scroll on by…US military/policy stupidity.]

    The US is so scared of Al-Qaeda and the like that it puts hundreds of thousands of troops into Afghanistan and Iraq. It is short of bodies, so it forces existing troops to go on extra tours. And it doesn’t have enough Arab linguists, vital for communicating with the locals (some of whom have even been detained under suspicion of fighting the US forces).

    But it’s STILL more important to kick gay troops out than to “keep America safe”.

    So either we conclude that the threat to America ain’t anywhere near as bad as is claimed when they want people to acquiesce to their latest power grab…

    …or that gays are more dangerous to US troops than terrorists (in which case why aren’t US Senators clamouring to lock them up and waterboard them to reveal who else might be gay?)

  264. ToM, I didn’t want to be the bearer of bad tidings, but Ms Von Hump (I like to be respectful of artistes) has “cough” been a little frugal with the truth.

    She, FiFi and the other triplet MiMi are not only satin and busty substance enhancement addicts, but often frequent establishments which provide the sort of low entertainment one would find in a “gentleman’s club'” in New York.

    Neil of Sydney will be able to confirm the type of activities engaged in in these establishments. He seems to have an intimate knowledge of at least one, albeit second-hand through one A Bolt, although not, I hasten to add, any frequented by Australian politicians. Let me make that perfectly clear.

    I have begged the girls to sell the pole, the ever-increasing sheets and lose the plastic surgeon’s number to no avail. I mean, it’s getting embarrassing when they fall flat on their faces in Cash Converters and can’t get up. Not to mention all that money wasted on nose jobs.

    They have recently bought an interest in a leather and metal stud business and I fear the worst, combined with their shares in Cling Wrap, Tupperware and refrigeration.

  265. Lotharsson,

    “or that gays are more dangerous to US troops than terrorists (in which case why aren’t US Senators clamouring to lock them up and waterboard them to reveal who else might be gay?)”

    Brilliant analysis, as always; clearly from an individual that has never “served” in any capacity……

  266. So why did you say that Rudd went to a brothel?

    joni, on May 21st, 2009 at 10:48 pm Said:

    Ahhhhh…………….Yes

    That takes me back to the late 1980s when a certain ex Leader of the LNCP was found “dead on the job”.

    But he had the brothel come to him…………….!

  267. This piece of filth got off easy…..We should have let the Iraqi’s have him…..

    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25520969-2703,00.html

  268. Sparta……….don’t you find it strange that the Army accepted this guy into service with an undetected severe personality disorder and then because of the disorder they discharged him.

    Does that mean the American Armed Forces is totally negligent and is unleashing upon the World an Army that they cannot guarantee is free of clearly detectable lunatics……………?

    Or perhaps it means that the Iraq War with its unrelenting cruelty and violence actually created a rapist and murderer………………….?

    So which is it ?

    It can only be one or the other

  269. Walrus,

    Who is to say but I can attest that I have known more than one individual during my service that gave me the “creeps”….In every war there are individuals of low character that take advantage of the circumstances and unfortunately act upon them. The fact is society has many such individuals without the luxury of war or circumstance to blame. Regardless, he is truly a sick individual and a flipping disgrace….The sacrifice of those that serve with honor and in the best traditions of our military suffer a tremendous blow with the acts of such individuals as such acts tend to withstand the dilution of time. But worse, the loss of an entire family at the hands of this monster (and company) is hardly accounted for by a mere life sentence……I dare say, his fate should have went the way of a dull blade at the hands of a rightfully enraged family member……….

  270. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA

    I dare say, his fate should have went the way of a dull blade at the hands of a rightfully enraged family member……….

    Sadly, they’re all dead; and may not have thought ‘killing in the name’ was a good substitute for justice, either, if given the choice of a court. I’m not sure everyone thinks simply in the form of ‘lex talionis’ besides, even if some make a habit of it to differentiate themselves from the crazies. On the happy side, the article did mention he has a family, too. I guess that’s how things work out, but volunteering a man called Filth, or any other label to brand him a beast, to receive his isolated, a-social just desserts does seem the honourable thing to do in some sectors of Amerika.

  271. “Sadly, they’re all dead; and may not have thought ‘killing in the name’ was a good substitute for justice, either, if given the choice of a court.”

    Highly doubt it……..”Eye for an Eye” is quite a common assertion in most Muslim cultures, as you know………Sadly, we will never know either way……

  272. Brilliant analysis, as always; clearly from an individual that has never “served” in any capacity……

    As is fairly typical, you label someone else’s posts with attributes that you fail to support with any sort of analysis, evidence or logic. Unfortunately, saying it does not make it so, even with heavy lashing of all-purpose sarcasm.

    Feel free to show me the error of my ways. If the war on terror or whatever it is called is so desperate that it calls for the loss of civil rights, breaking of various laws, stop-loss measures, raising maximum service ages, and significant lowering of entry standards for the military in pursuit of national security…why exactly are gays kicked out of the military, particularly highly effective decorated personnel and those whose units want to keep them?

    BTW, I’m still waiting for you to tell me which laws and regulations you think do and don’t apply to various classes of detainees. Shouldn’t be too hard, given that you were trained in upholding the Constitution, Geneva Conventions and abiding by the Army Field Manual. I’m mainly interested in the parts that specify how one can or can’t treat detainees under your control, including banning cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment and the like.

    Or to summarise it – who do you think you can abuse and why?

  273. Loth @12.34am. Interesting that the US military still bans gay service personnel. Or as they hint at..openly gay ones.

    The very very old myth used to be that gay personnel (men only in those days) might pose some sort of ‘hazard’ to other personnel..that is, would be eye-ing off a fellow servicemen rather than concentrating on the job.

    The same argument in reverse was used against accepting females into the services in non-clerical and non-nursing roles.

    With changes to Federal legislation coming in on the 1st July this year recognising gay (de facto) there will be little (hopefully) to stop gay service personnel likewise claiming a married person’s status if their partner is same gender.

  274. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA

    Sadly, we will never know either way……

    That ol’ context and reality thing getting in the way of a good straw bonfire of fine speculations and irrelevant over-generalisations, again, huh?

    Yeah, I know it’s hard to remember the big show trial and the mobile phone images of an Iraq executing one assisted version, right or wrong, of a court with laws and judges and lawyers and judicially mandated death penalties after due deliberations; and I was vaguely under the impression that keeping an eye on the an eye for an eyes might involve comparing and contrasting the deliberations about not-dissimilar proposed penalties on offer in one and another place.

    Still, it’s good to know that Sparta is on hand to draw the parallels and divergences in context between speculation and reality.

  275. I watched the Obama and Cheney speeches last night and was struck by one thing that Cheney (and the apologist for torture) keep saying. To paraphrase they say they did not torture and that they only used the enhanced techniques on three detainees.

    Now – if you had total confidence that what you did was right, why do they you need to say that it was only used on three people? Does that excuse the techniques?

    And Cheney keeps saying that the techniques worked. I thought that Obama quickly dismantled that when he said:

    I know some have argued that brutal methods like waterboarding were necessary to keep us safe. I could not disagree more. As Commander-in-Chief, I see the intelligence. I bear the responsibility for keeping this country safe. And I categorically reject the assertion that these are the most effective means of interrogation.

  276. Re pedopile priests. A suggestion has been that the impost of celibacy brought them to this state. However I rather think that priests..and teachers..and scout masters deliberately choose the profession/act as community volunteers in order to bring themselves into contact with children under the guise of ‘trust’.

  277. Min, it is very interesting that it’s only personnel known to be gay who are a problem. The recent high profile cases I linked to have both served their country very well for years and years…but the minute they are known to be gay they are considered unsuitable. (And that tends to make the “well, they might not have their minds on the job” argument look unconvincing…)

  278. joni, Cheney must have been his usual bare-faced lying self if he argues that “enhanced interrogation techniques” were only used on three detainees. It’s well documented that many of those techniques were used on a much larger number of detainees. He may have been trying to refer to waterboarding, because it’s currently claimed that technique it was only used on three people.

    Based on historical averages, you’re more likely to be right if you assume anything Cheney says is a lie or a distortion than assuming it’s true.

    And your point is well made. If all these techniques are just fine, why keep defending them by saying we don’t use them on many people? If they’re fine, aren’t you COMPROMISING security by not using them on everyone? Start with detainees, who MIGHT know something. Then move on to US service personnel, because some of them might be harbouring dangerous thoughts that could turn into action, or know something that could improve security. (This is especially true these days now that white supremacists and hard right militia movements are signing up for military service in order to get training in those techniques which they feel they may need to use in the US at some point in the future.)

    Then move on to anyone ever arrested for a crime, because crime tends to be committed by criminals, and many of them grant themselves the luxury of committing more than one. Then you can move on to anyone in a government job…hell, just waterboard everyone in the country to find out if they know anything that could be used to improve national security or save someone’s life.

  279. Lotharson

    So true – but there would not be any point in waterboarding Bush, because it was pretty evident that he did not know anything.

  280. However I rather think that priests..and teachers..and scout masters deliberately choose the profession/act as community volunteers in order to bring themselves into contact with children under the guise of ‘trust’.

    But out of the three occupations, it’s only the church that will shelter and protect their employee from being held accountable to the community for their crimes.

  281. Lotharsson, on May 22nd, 2009 at 12:34 am Said:

    …or that gays are more dangerous to US troops than terrorists (in which case why aren’t US Senators clamouring to lock them up and waterboard them to reveal who else might be gay?)

    Why aren’t all US Senators waterboarded to find out who amongst them is gay, they are obviously such a danger to the nation?

  282. ” However I rather think that priests..and teachers..and scout masters deliberately choose the profession/act as community volunteers in order to bring themselves into contact with children under the guise of ‘trust’”min

    An interesting point min. Yesterday’s Irish report is leading me to think that you may be correct. I still think that they are an absolute minority among many genuinely caring, good natured people who clearly aren’t in the game for molestation.

    To me it makes the already unconscionable acts that much more abhorrent if the abuse of trust is a calculated maneuvre.

    Especially given the increasing evidence to support Kitty’s assertion that…

    “But out of the three occupations, it’s only the church that will shelter and protect their employee from being held accountable to the community for their crimes”

    Certainly this appears to be a pattern in the past, right up until the present.

    Not a good look.

  283. Toiletb..re: “But out of the three occupations, it’s only the church that will shelter and protect their employee from being held accountable to the community for their crimes”

    I would say that the church is not much different to various education departments. However, at least state institutions did realise that there was a problem..for example with a no touch policy. That is not to say that victims of abuse from teachers were treated much better than victims of abuse from priests.

    It’s always been the same regardless of the organisation or institution: deny the event and blame the child.

    However, the church did throw in an added dimension, the so called ‘holiness’ of the perpetrator. But hang on, wasn’t the teacher/scout master/basketball coach/surf coach likewise a respectable member of society. And didn’t these organisations likewise pay for the legal expenses of the accused?

  284. You forgot political parties when it comes to protecting their own from being accountable for crimes.

  285. You forgot political parties when it comes to protecting their own from being accountable for crimes.

    For example?

    Political parties wasn’t actually being discussed, just those three occupations as stated in min’s comment.

  286. Don’t forget footballers…lol!

  287. [Scroll on by…]

    The President’s lawyer apparently “approved” harsh techniques on a daily basis well before any memos were written – despite not having the power to do so.

    “If that were true,” says the former official, “then the whole legal and policy review process from April through August would have been a complete charade.”

    The CIA is withholding his own diaries from Abu Zubaydah. Apparently he has a badly dysfunctional memory and keeps a diary as a record. He indicates that he wrote against 9/11, and other information that may help his case.

    Italy is continuing the trial of CIA agents and others accused of kidnapping (for rendition), despite certain evidence being ruled inadmissible because it is classified.

  288. Sorry Kitty..it was Toiletb quoting you.

  289. Yeah soz for the hard to follow quotes min. I’m too lazy to blockquote at the moment.

  290. You may or may not be interested in the yet further Orwellian rewriting of history ‘update’ at the same link you provided, Scaper. Comparison of what you originally read versus what you read now, there, is perhaps useful to an understanding of how that site’s narrative is being framed and re-framed.

    scaper…, on May 21st, 2009 at 12:17 pm Said:

    Breaking News!

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/05202009/news/regionalnews/bronx/ny_terror_plot_foiled_170221.htm

    Also, in other places, you might note that the FBI’s Mueller is using the FBI’s manufacture foiling of a terrorist plot to buttress the FBI’s claims about the ‘danger’ of transferring detainees from Gitmo to within a regular American jurisdiction.

  291. Legion (and scaper), for even more information try this.

    …the overall portrait that’s emerging is that of a group of struggling, disaffected petty criminals, who bonded at a Newburgh, NY mosque over having spent time in prison, before being taken in by a Pakistani immigrant looking to win leniency for a crime of his own.

    As some have noted, it’s rather interesting that this plot makes the news right around the time they’re voting whether to close Guantanamo, and Obama is saying perhaps we need to lock some people up and throw away the key without bothering about any of this quaint “trial” business.

  292. Lotharsson, on May 23rd, 2009 at 3:36 pm

    Most days I wonder how gullible many Americans are in falling for the Straussian legerdemain at the Fear Factory, Lotharsson. Oops, a low-flying jumbo jet accidentally buzzed Ground Zero trailed by a military jet. Hoorah, the diabolical concocted plot that was entirely within control, both for its materiel and more particularly its timing which turned on the provisioning of that materiel to establish a ‘go’, was foiled. Meanwhile, the genuine ‘jackals’ bide their times.

  293. Legion, I suspect you are correct. And in part the party trick relies on the media widely disseminating the initial sensational claims which are incorporated into people’s mental model of reality, and then quietly walking them back later (if at all) so that fewer see it and fewer still modify their mental model in response.

    And we are probably participating in an unintentional microcosm of that mechanism here – what are the chances that many of those who read the initial claims when posted here will see the followup and modify their understanding of the plot and how it was presented to the world?

  294. Or as they say “You can misdirect enough of the people enough of the time, especially if you repeat the misdirection enough and they’re not paying close attention.”

  295. Legion, Imagine if those suspects had been white. And note the use of “aspirational” now.

  296. Toiletboss, on May 22nd, 2009 at 1:14 pm Said:

    Yeah soz for the hard to follow quotes min. I’m too lazy to blockquote at the moment.

    Get Firefox and then an add-on called BBCode. Then in any blog when you right click in a post or select text and right click there is a popup menu item called BBCode. It contains all of the most common BB codes, HTML codes, XML codes and symbols, but the best thing of all it can be customised to add your own coding. For href’s it now only takes me a few very quick actions, copy URL, select text, invoke BBCode and paste.

    For people who regularly post in blogs this add-on is a must. There is another version on the Mozilla Firefox site that does a similar job.

  297. Get Firefox and then an add-on called BBCode.

    Nice tip. I should have gone looking for something like that ages ago 🙂

  298. Thanks Mobius, much appreciated.

  299. Legion, the FBI agent in the Newburgh case has a history of dodgy terror busts – or non-busts. It looks like he was the one who got a false confession from a wounded Afghani teenager that led to the Maher Arar travesty, helped miss two of the 9/11 hijackers, and more.

    The more you look at this, the more it seems likely to evaporate into something much less sinister, just like many of the other high profile plots…

  300. I’m just assuming observer status from here on in, Lotharsson. I’ve noted that somebody acting as practical and ideological leader of the ‘cell’ wanted to make the thing ‘Jewish v Islamic’; I’ve noted that Bloomberg’s dry run last week was a replica of his bogus red-alert for the subways back in ’05; I’ve noted that the FBI took visible lead in the JTTF instantiation when they placed the thing across the Connecticut border to up the ante; I’ve noted that CW has form:

    To snare Aref, the JTTF dispatched a Pakistani immigrant named Shahed “Malik” Hussain, who was facing years in prison for a driver’s-license scam.

    I’ve also noted that the JTTF’s tactics are only scooping up aspirational misfits whose aspirations are indubitably influenced by those with whom they interact, and not any one of those convenient idiots they are scooping up would fall into the ‘mastermind’ class by any means; which theoretically means they aren’t finding the ‘jackals’ (or even a functional jihadi or terror cell), and the ‘jackals’ are learning as much about how to execute a successful strategy even as the FBI is learning how to conduct agent provocateur exercises which best fit the legal requirements for securing convictions in the show trials of dupes. In other words, I am unsure that the political propaganda merits of the exercise are securing anything like the kinds of successful outcomes that vigilance is supposed to provide.

  301. In other words, I am unsure that the political propaganda merits of the exercise are securing anything like the kinds of successful outcomes that vigilance is supposed to provide.

    Indeed. One could even argue that by wasting resources on these types of at-least-partially-manufactured plots, not only are they potentially missing out on stopping _actual_ plots, but they’re crying wolf so much that their warnings will ultimately lose effectiveness.

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