Monday by the Magazine Rack



Good afternoon and welcome to Monday by the Magazine Rack. Our beginning of the week open chat thread.

Today I brought my own lunch to work. What’s so odd about that I hear you say.

Well it’s probably the first time I’ve made my own lunch and taken it to work in about ten years.

Usually I would just trot ‘round the corner and get my usual pide roll and occasionally, if I’m feeling indulgent, add one of those decadent large size chocolate covered Florentines to the order.

So why is today any different? To be honest I don’t really know. However I suspect that it’s something to do with an increasingly pervasive sentiment that in today’s current environment – “it’s good to be frugal”.

And it’s not just me. Matt Preston, the “Oscar Wilde” type food critic that appears in the Masterchef show I discussed last week, wrote in the Weekend Age, that it’s good to eat-in rather than go out to eat. Which is out of character for one who is usually recommending nice places for people to spend their money eating out.

It seems that while shoppers are still prepared to spend money, they demand more value and more heavily discounted prices than a couple of years ago.

Last week, by way of another example, we purchased a new fridge for the home from a leading national retailer. No not Hardly Normal, I wouldn’t shop there if you held a gun to my head. Well maybe I would, if you did, and it came to that, but you get the idea.

Anyway, after comparing a few prices, the retailer we finally bought it from sold it to us at the cost price – just to get the cashflow. Some $700 below the RRP.

Is it just me, or are any other Blogocrats starting to watch the dollars and cents more closely, than say, in comparison to this time last year?

It’s weird, because our household financial circumstances haven’t changed. If anything we’re better off because we can afford to pay more into our mortgage with the lower interest rates.

It seems that retailers are having sales for the sake of having a sale as they compete for the consumer dollar, and consumers, accordingly, realise that they are in a superior bargaining power.

Take a look at the sale of new vehicles for example. They’ve taken a severe nose dive. Even in the small town of Hobart about 4 or 5 dealers have shut up shop..

It’ll be interesting to see how it all pans out..

Anyway over to youse..

73 Responses

  1. Yes reb I’m also paying much closer attention to “value” these days. For the last 3 months Mrs Walrus and I have been heading off to Dan Murphys to purchase our entire booze supply for the month and off upstairs to Aldis to buy a few things in bulk like Toilet Paper, frozen chickens, tinned tomatoes for pastas, pastas, headache tablets, biscuits………..anything we can so we don’t need to purchase it from Coles or Woolies.

    Then off to the local butcher for slightly cheaper but higher quality red meat. Then the local fruit and veg. Much fresher than the so called “Fresh Food People”

    One just has to get into the habit.

    One tip though. Don’t do it in the middle of the month as everyone seems to get paid then and Dan Murphy (knowing this) runs fewer specials. Try to go at the beginning or end of the month.

  2. Ah – home cooked food – I remember that.

    I finally managed to hold some food down last night, and I am beginning to feel a little bit better.

    We get our fruit and vegies from Paddy’s Market in Sydney on Sundays, and it works out much cheaper than the big two, and we can get the asian vegies that we love to cook with (bok choy, lemon grass, sweet potato (is that with an E on the end or not?)).

    BTW – am hoping that my boss lets me fly back to SG tonight or tomorrow.

  3. That’s interesting Walrus.

    Me and the other half have also been selective about where we shop for different things.

    Rather than just shopping at Woolies for everything, and not really paying attention to prices at all, we’ve been watching when things are on sale – canned tomatoes, pasta, pasta sauce, toilet paper, kitchen paper towels (like yourself) and buying them then, and for other things like fresh meat and veges getting them from a fresh food market that sells them at about half the price of the supermarkets and much fresher too.

    One thing I won’t compromise on though is free-range eggs. Even though the’re five or six bucks a dozen, and rather buy eggs from happy chickens than support the caged industry.

    Here’s a related article I just found on retail spending…,27753,25498832-462,00.html

  4. is that with an E on the end or not?

    If you’re going to indulge joni, most people usually take an E at the beginning of the weekend rather than at the end, as the latter option can tend to interfere with one’s “attitude” and quality of work on a Monday.

  5. One thing I won’t compromise on though is free-range eggs…rather buy eggs from happy chickens than support the caged industry.

    Me too, but not because of the chooks – they just taste so much better.

    as the latter option can tend to interfere with one’s “attitude” and quality of work on a Monday.

    Yes, but one usually comes good by about Thursday.

  6. “Yes, but one usually comes good by about Thursday.”

    I’ve had a few guys working for me over the years that used to blow their brains out on a weekend and usually came good by Thursday morning.

    They only lasted a few months as I saved the hard work for them.

  7. Oh and another thing was that we bought a kitchen scale and pack meat into smaller bags on the basis of 250 to 300 grams each per meal. We are no longer wasting anything

  8. I don’t think hubby and I are doing anything different because we’ve always gone to the farmer’s markets and had our own herb and vegie gardens. However, I do notice a difference with the young’uns..son has a very spendiferous hydroponic garden with tomatoes, capsicum, lettuces, parsley etc.

    For us, all leftovers, casseroles etc go into tubs into the freezer for hubby’s meals. He is well fed..probably too well fed.

    Fortunately we’re not yet at that stage where vegetable peelings go into the pot for soup as per my grandmothers.

  9. I’ve cut back to 389, from the 707.

  10. I’m down to Rawson’s Retreat…


  11. I’m down to Indian reds. Admittedly undrinkable but that makes the bottle last and last.

  12. Rawsons Retreat is fine, if used to wash out paint brushes.

  13. Red Indians??? Aren’t they from a different continent?

  14. From Richard Glover on Saturday:

    A couple that I particularly like, but probably if I had to choose, the favorite of mine is:

    8. Enjoyable silence of workmate who spent all of 2007 saying: “Mate, you’re an idiot if you don’t mortgage the house and whack the lot into Babcock & Brown like I’ve done. Mate, highly leveraged is the only way to be. Did I mention you are an idiot? Because if I can just point out to you … ”

    However, running a close 2nd is:

    7. Plumbers so desperate for business they actually turn up.

  15. In these times of Economic Gloom has anyone noticed how many cars on the road these days are………………………………………………………Black

    Is it a sign of gloom that we are steering away from bright and happy colours ?

  16. Walrus..have you noticed how many clothes in shops are grey.

  17. You have got to be F-ing kidding me.

    Read this GQ article on Rumsfeld – by the guy who wrote a Bush-endorsed biography.

    Rumsfeld kept troops and search-and-rescue choppers out of Katrina for 5 days whilst conditions deteriorated because he insisted the National Guard was enough, and there would be “unity of command” issues.

    (Not purely due to Rumsfeld, but endorsed by him.) Cover sheets on daily intelligence briefings on days surrounding the Iraq war included Biblical passages (many seeming to touch on themes justifying the war). There’s a slideshow here. Crusades, anyone? WTF was he thinking?

    He was said to be very effective at stalling anything he didn’t agree with (“No one threw sand in the gears like Rumsfeld”). He compromised efforts by either insisting on control when inappropriate, or not playing as a team member. And his way sometimes meant putting American soldiers into unnecessary additional danger.

    Or putting everyone in danger. He had a hand in obstructing and delaying US-Russian agreements to secure and destroy plutonium which was often poorly secured in Russia – and thus presented an opportunity for an aspiring nuclear terrorist. And he did the same with a “Joint Data Exchange Center” which aims to help both sides determine when a possible missile launch alarm from the other is a false alarm (as has happened in at least one case in history, causing the Russians to think seriously about launching nukes against the US). As I read it, Russia has concluded that the US is not particularly interested in cooperation in these areas.

    The article is astonishing – read the whole thing. And it says much about Bush’s judgement that he stood by Rumsfeld for so long.

  18. Cover sheets on daily intelligence briefings on days surrounding the Iraq war included Biblical passages (many seeming to touch on themes justifying the war).

    Not at all surprising – after all, this is a country that has In God We Trust on its currency.

    Kamahloderator: Been doin’ my job cleaning up tags in comments. Why are people so unkind?

  19. Well this may be the start of something good.

    The long running demarcation dispute at Melbourne’s West Gate Bridge is moving towards settlement it seems.

    As part of the settlement unions will provide a “good behaviour” bond, reports suggest the bond will be 6 figures. This is a good precedent.

    The conditions are apparently very similar to those originally negotiated with the AWU, so all this violence and disputation has led to …what???

    It was a dispute about union control from start to finish, and each union involved is affiliated with the ALP.

  20. thnx kml kbai

  21. Smells like a magazine rack…

  22. Yes reb, I too am watching the pennies. Year to date I’ve spent $100k less on property than I did last year. Might tighten the belt a bit more, depending of course, on the size of my expected tax return.

  23. I’ve decided not to buy another truck as it really is surplus to my needs as one is always parked under the house.

    I’m spending twice as much as this time last year, I’m running out of stuff to buy, the girls were complaining that they needed some more winter clothes.

    They maxed my card out but I got a pair of Ugg boots with Volley soles…they’re spoiling me!

  24. They maxed my card out but I got a pair of Ugg boots with Volley soles…they’re spoiling me!

    I got a new pair of Broadmeadows Wedding Shoes.

  25. Try this:

  26. I wonder – does anyone know where Lekhni settled in India? I wonder if it is close to where I am at the moment.

  27. Scaper:

    “I’m running out of stuff to buy”

    Have you considered silicone implants or some botox top-ups..?

  28. Joni..have emailed you re Lekhni..sadly not much help.

  29. Is anyone here interested in more political hypocrisy?

    Various news reports –

    The VAFA fined Prahran Amateur Football Club $5000 with a further $4000 fine suspended until the conclusion of the 2010 season, and has ordered the Club XVIII team to attend an AFL-run Respect and Responsibility course.

    Victorian Premier John Brumby said “It’s completely inappropriate behaviour. We’re trying to encourage people to play sport, then you read about a football club that gets a stripper in before a game,”

    “They need to be offering, I would have thought, some public apologies about this matter.” he said.

    Following his visit to a strip club, how much was our PM fined, and has he attended a “Respect and Responsibility” course? Did Brumby insist on a public apology from the PM?

  30. For those that haven’t caught up, a team with Prahran Amateur Football Club had a stripper provide the pre match motivation speech.

  31. YAY!!! I head back to Singapore tomorrow – no more being trapped in a hotel in Mumbai. Woohoo!

  32. Tom

    Maybe it was just a misunderstanding. Perhaps the coach asked for a strapper?

  33. Following his visit to a strip club, how much was our PM fined, and has he attended a “Respect and Responsibility” course? Did Brumby insist on a public apology from the PM?

    That would have to be the most pathetic, childish post I’ve ever read.

    Have you ever attended a Respect and Responsibility course yourself, or would you try and tell us that you are the country’s only heterosexual (I think) male never to attend a strip joint?

    I don’t suppose you have attended one of the courses. Respect and responsibility are two traits that you demonstrate an enormous lack of.

  34. Miglo, the facts are that Kevin Rudd got drunk, went to a strip club and then neglected to tell the truth about his recollection.

    Did the Victorian Premier insist on an apology at that time? How was telling Rudd that he had to attend a course to modify his behaviour and attitudes?

    So why is the Victorian Premier adopting such double standards with the condemnation of an amateur football club?

    The points made by Brumby represent double standards, hypocrisy and political correctness gone MAD!!

    Brumby has lost the plot on this one.

  35. “Following his visit to a strip club, how much was our PM fined, and has he attended a “Respect and Responsibility” course? Did Brumby insist on a public apology from the PM?”

    ToM, I guess that would depend on whether he had sex with a 19yo girl and then invited a rugby team for a spot of gang rape, wouldn’t it?

  36. Tom,

    If you’re going to wax lyrical about “hypocrisy” can you please use the prefix “rank” as in “rank hypocrisy”.

    This adds a greater sense of drama and outrage that might help others to realise that there’s possibly a case to be answered for here.

  37. Jane, what has that alleged episode got to do with a football team watching a stripper before a game???

    From what I’ve ascertained it was organised by a retired player, I might be mistaken.

  38. Jane, you’ve got your stories mixed up.

    At no stage have I suggested that the behaviour of the NRL players was anything other than deplorable.

    I’m referring to an amateur football club having a stripper at the club, and the subsequent sanctimonious commentary from our Victorian Premier.

    Brumby demanded an apology, and the team has to get some behaviour modifying training. They’ve been fined $5000.

    I just wonder whether our Premier recommended a similar course of action for our PM, or whether his mouth just got away from him in this most (rankly?) hypocritical manner.

    Brumby seemed smart, but he’s now a proven dill.,27574,25503903-2862,00.html

  39. no Tom…

    It goes like this….

    “This just reeks of rank hypocrisy!”

  40. Tom, I don’t quite understand why you think that Brumby is a dill (at least this incident). From your link, Brumby stated:

    The furor, revealed by the Herald Sun, was described by Premier John Brumby as inappropriate and unacceptable and a bad example for young players.

    The VAFA has agreed and the Committee Members have been sent off for it would seem much needed counselling.

    My cousin used to coach Prahran eons ago (mega eons ago) and son played for Seville. Some of the lads might have been only 14yrs old.

  41. Well Min, I think this might have been an older age group than the under 14s.

    Call me old fashioned, but I think the standards of behaviour for a political leader should be a little higher than those applicable to the antics of a footy team, particularly when it comes to watching strippers.

    If our Premier Brumby was so critical of the footy team, you don’t think consistency would suggest that he direct similar harsh criticisms (and a call for an apology) towards our PM?

    Brumby is a dill because his mouth got away from him.

    This just reeks of rank hypocrisy!

  42. Tom..sorry, I probably missed it because it was so trivial.

    Many very excellent players enter teams in the amateurs when only very young teenagers.

    Rudd, an adult male went to a strip club 6 years ago accompanied by other adult males including a journalist. This story amazingly (surprise) resurfaced just prior to the election.

    Then there were hands up re male and female parliamentarians who had been to a club. I think that even Tony Abbott owned up.

    You are trying to equate an adult male choosing to go to a club with an amateur football team bringing in a stripper to ‘entertain’ teenage boys?

  43. Well, I went to the wreckers this morning to get rid of my old truck and just couldn’t do it!

    Tomorrow she will be having a heart (motor) transplant then back to work.

    It looks like my ‘show pony’ will escape the grind, had her for two years and have done 14,000k’s.

  44. scaper…, on May 19th, 2009 at 5:38 pm Said:

    had her for two years and have done 14,000k’s

    Well that’s about 140 clicks a week or about 30 clicks a working day. And yet:

    she will be having a heart (motor) transplant then back to work

    Really? Something doesn’t add up.

  45. There are some problems with the usual Laffer curve arguments – at least in the US.

    Firstly, the Laffer curve argues that tax revenue increases as tax rates increase, up to a certain tax rate beyond which it decreases. (Whether this is a good model of the world or not is apparently the matter of some debate.) The Laffer curve is trotted out by Republicans in the US regularly as an argument that supports their prescription for every situation – cut tax rates. (Economy’s good? Cut tax rates. Economy’s bad? Cut tax rates. Not enough science graduates? Cut tax rates. Too many car crashes? Cut tax rates. OK, I jest – but only slightly.) However, AFAIK they fail to show that they are actually on the right hand side of the curve – and if they’re not, cutting tax rates will reduce total tax revenue.

    Secondly, the argument that “people are mobile” is fine, except where they are not. The Laffer curve is rolled out to argue that US Federal tax rates should be cut, otherwise high earners will move overseas. The issue is that US citizens and permanent residents pay tax on worldwide income. They get offsets for any foreign tax paid (apart from various wrinkles, adjustments and exceptions), but if they pay less tax overseas than they would in the US – then the IRS charges them the difference. So moving overseas doesn’t help you much. And if you’re a citizen and you move overseas and give up your citizenship, IIRC they can still charge you tax for 10 years if they determine that you were motivated by tax avoidance.

    There may be some merit to the argument where you have actual mobility (e.g. between States, as cited). The difficulty there is that you have to include all taxes – not just income taxes – in order to make a fair comparison. States with 0% income tax rates typically get that revenue through other means. (You may be lucky if you don’t get caught up in those mechanisms…) You will then likely conclude that States will either end up with similar-ish total tax rates, or will compete in a race to the bottom which will leave them short of public funds – an outcome most would not be happy with (but hard core Republicans would).

    Thirdly, for a party that bases its philosophy on the idea that government is bad, and therefore less government is better – shouldn’t they be trying to reduce total tax take, which, if their Laffer curve assertions are correct, would mean raising tax rates? 😉

    I also think I saw real world evidence a year or so ago that tax raises in the US in the last 20 years or so resulted in increased tax revenue, but I haven’t time right now to see if I can find it.

    I’ll have a deeper read of that article later – there may be some interesting nuggets in there.

    Thanks Tony!

  46. The other Laffer curve presumption that puzzles me is the idea that “high tax rates encourage people to deliberately make less money”. An extreme version of this is sometimes related to “Going Galt”, a reference to (IIRC) a character in Ayn Rand’s novel “Atlas Shrugged” who stopped working altogether because (a) he didn’t feel his slice of the pie was big enough, and (b) he felt he was central to the success of the whole enterprise, and stopping work would serve them right. Not sure it works out quite that way in real life very often though. When Obama’s modest tax cut rollbacks were announced, there was a lot of talk from certain quarters about Going Galt, but I’ve seen little evidence that anyone has – and if they have, I suspect they have found they weren’t central to the whole enterprise after all.

    I can see the case where high tax rates discourage people from putting in a lot more effort than they currently do because they feel the return is not worth it. However, most super high earners for whom this is presumed to be the case don’t seem to demonstrate this behaviour – many of them are very much in it as a competition with their peers and dollars earned are a way of keeping score, no matter how much tax they pay. (They also have the best opportunities to structure their tax affairs to avoid straight income tax…and they do.)

    I can also see a case where it encourages people to put in more effort because they need to earn more to take home (and extra dollars have more utility than dollars already regularly earned, in a sense).

  47. Feet in mouth, yet again!

  48. I see Min, so you’re stating that some”very young teenagers” are part of the Prahran Amateur Football Club team that had the stripper at the pre game. Do you have any evidence of this claim?

    I think if you bother to do a little checking that you might establish for yourself that the contrary is the case.

    The VAFA issued a statement – “At the same time, we recognise that the Prahran club’s behaviour was not illegal, but inappropriate and embarrassing. “

    I think if there had been a team containing “very young teenagers”, this statement may have been quite different.

    Min please do a little checking and back up this quite unfair claim you have made.

    The club has had the courtesy to admit fault, put the players through a course to reinforce the inappropriateness of this behaviour and has copped a fine!!

    Rudd on the other hand, neglected to tell the truth about his behaviour, was drunk, and on a taxpayer funded trip.

    Yet it was the footy club that Brumby has strongly criticised, what a dill.

    This just reeks of rank hypocrisy!

  49. Lotharsson, there is one part of your commentary that all would agree is beyond dispute:

    Whether this is a good model of the world or not is apparently the matter of some debate


  50. Laffer Curve. Didn’t it have its origins in the thoughts of that Islamic scholar Ibn Khaldūn? And didn’t Tobin say:

    the ‘Laffer Curve’ idea that tax cuts would actually increase revenues turned out to deserve the ridicule with which sober economists had greeted it in 1981

    I think he called it ‘Voodoo Economics’.

    As a teaching tool, the Laffer Curve certainly has something to offer but taken as gospel it’s somewhat ridiculous as are all ‘grand theories’ whether they be advanced by Simon, Marx, Talcott Parsons, Freud or whoever.

    The real world isn’t that simple. Better to stick with mid or micro range theories, I suspect, because time is rather cruel to ‘grand theory’.

  51. This could be the missing link in our evolution.,25197,25510735-601,00.html

    If this is indeed correct, well…it kind of blows christian religion out the window!

    Never could believe it anyway!

  52. Scaper,

    It is fitting that you bring up the missing link. Neil might be interested.

  53. scaper…, on May 20th, 2009 at 9:20 am

    You underestimate the powers of those who would have descendent baby T-Rexes aboard the Ark, and their adult vegetarian forms gathering coconuts for sustenance with their sharpened foreclaws to be crushed between their sizeable teeth in the Garden before the Fall. The more or less arcane ways of Darwinian and Creationist sciences are also notionally non-overlapping magisteria, too…The Sons of Adam and Eve could quite well have begotten with the offset-parallel creation of the Great-Grandmothers of Darwin, for want of any other proposed solution to the missing womenfolk or evidence of further missing ribs. God does indeed work in mysterious ways when providing for the multiplying and the prospering of His children.

  54. Legion. If Adam and Eve beget Cain, Abel and Seth and then unnamed sons and daughters and Cain slew (slayed?) Abel who did Cain and Seth marry? One of their sisters??

  55. Was Jesus gay?

  56. Min, have you had an opportunity to justify your claim about “very young teenagers” being in the amateur team that had a stripper at their pre match?

    I’d be interested in how you justify this claim.

  57. I don’t know scaps..but it would have been very unusual for a 30 something Jewish bloke to have been unmarried. Obviously Mary Magdalene was his missus.

  58. You sure it wasn’t Marty Magdalene?

  59. Hi Tom..have just arrived home from shopping. It’s storming here and I ended up with an inside out umbrella making my way to the carpark with the shopping trolley…therefore drenched.

    Of course there can be older blokes in amateur football, often ones who used to be excellent footballers and still want a kick of the footy. Comment was an observation over..well most of my life, cousin was John Jenkins (the 1st Jerka) who played for North Melbourne and later coached what is now considered amateur. Later I was involved with the Yarra Valley Football League.

    Was just talking to my 84yr old Mum about this and she said: Don’t leave me out..I used to play in the ruck for Katamatite.

  60. It could have been scaps, but that would kill off the sect about those who believe themselves descendants of JC.

  61. Rumsfeld says he disapproved of Bible quotes on the daily intelligence briefings – but the reporter continues to stand by it.

  62. [Scroll on by…]

    Yet another allegation that the CIA list of briefings on “EITs” is erroneous.

    Jesse Ventura, former Navy Seal, SERE trainee, TV wrestler and Governor of Minnesota appeared on Fox and Friends and forcefully pointed out that the host’s talking points about enhanced interrogation techniques are bogus.

    As Obama supports almost all of the Bush/Cheney detainee practices, the US media continues to promote torture as a “centrist” value.

  63. [Scroll on by…More Jesse Ventura on two other shows.]

    On The View, more forceful debate, this time against some different talking points. And the odd quote:

    You give me a waterboard, one hour and Dick Cheney, and I’ll have him confessing to the Sharon Tate murders.

  64. …er, make that “…on another show”, just so you’re not left hanging 😉

  65. Loth..5 minutes of waterboarding and I would probably admit to being infested with a reptilian presence that wore pink booties, a dark purple ribbon with lemon colored spots and which wore a Hawthorn football scarf.

  66. [Scroll on by…collected list of false CIA claims about briefings]

    Perhaps my favourite is the claim to have briefed Member of Congress Porter Goss on March 8, 2005. As the author says,

    That’s impossible. Porter Goss was not a member of Congress on that date. Rather, he was the Director of the CIA.

    Anyone still wedded to the notion that the CIA always tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? (You mean to say that the falsehoods in the National Intelligence Estimate supporting the “case” for invading Iraq, with George Tenet telling Bush that the case was a “slam-dunk”, and waterboarding used to manufacture false “evidence” didn’t alert you yet?)

  67. [Scroll on by…disbarment requested for 12 attorneys who provided legal cover for torture]

    We’ll see what happens.

  68. [Scroll on by…stress positions and sleep deprivation found to have contributed to homicide of detainee]

    …which indicates that these techniques – especially in combination with others – may have far more serious consequences than proponents would like you to believe.

    And yet, the OLC memo issued some time later ignored the SASC report which reached that conclusion and basically said that sleep deprivation isn’t that serious.

  69. [Scroll on by…]

    Dick Cheney’s daughter has been on TV defending her dad’s policies quite a bit lately. In her latest appearance she refused to deny that her father had asked for a former Iraqi official who had been detained to be waterboarded in order to say that Iraq either had connections to Al-Qaeda or had WMD.

  70. Sparta, OK, point taken – you meant “insurgents” and “enemy combatants” rather than purely “non-citizens”.

    So please clarify your terms – what is an “insurgent” and what is an “enemy combatant”?

    Then please clarify how it is determined that an individual falls into those categories.

    Then please clarify what laws and regulations you think apply to the treatment of such individuals, distinguishing between those
    (a) captured on a battlefield
    (b) turned over to US forces for reward in a country where US forces are operating
    (c) kidnapped from a 3rd country where the US is not on a “battlefield” and turned over to the US.

    Oh, and Eric Holder’s argument from 2002 that you referenced in that WSJ link? I believe
    (a) your Supreme Court subsequently said the Geneva Conventions apply to detainees captured overseas
    (b) Since Mohammad Atta was in the US at the time, if he had survived he would have been arrested and tried under the laws of the US, just like other terrorists captured in the US who were tried, convicted and have been safely incarcerated in the US for 10+ years. The question of the Geneva Convention would never have arisen. It’s a shocking red herring for Holder to be waving around.

  71. Doh! Wrong thread.

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