Australian Rugby League and Women.

I don’t know about you, but I found the revelations of the group sex “incident” as reported on ABC’s Four Corners on Monday night as not really all that surprising.

For years the ARL has been earnt itself a pitiful reputation for its attitudes towards women.

The players that took part in this hideous episode that took place in a New Zealand hotel seven years ago believe that women can be treated like sexual objects; humiliated, abused, and then discarded.

It is fitting that Matthew Johns has been sacked by Channel Nine and stood down from his football career.

Johns maintains that the sexual encounter was “consensual”.

The woman concerned says it was consensual between two players, but suddenly the room was full of other players – each taking a turn to sexually assault her. Where is the consent in that? A 19 year old girl in a room full of intoxicated naked rugby players each wanting to “have a go?”

Interestingly, Johns concedes that he has been carrying “the guilt” of the incident for the past 7 years and apologised to the girl after the incident – for the other players entering the room. So it would appear the masquerade of “consent” is something that he is trying to convince himself of, otherwise why would he feel guilty?

Reports suggest that Johns sacking from Channel Nine will mean the end to the poorly rating “Footy Show” which also features another controversial figure Sam Newman. As far as I’m concerned the end can’t come soon enough. Newman is a grotesque individual.

Maxine McKew gave an articulate commentary on the entire affair this morning and I hope to be able to post a transcript soon.

According to McKew, after years of so called “counselling,” and education about the treatment of women, it’s seems that attitudes have changed little at the ARL.

This report appears to confirm this:

One senior NRL representative player warned group sex among NRL players would continue regardless of a warnings from chief executive David Gallop. The representative player told the Herald that his colleagues were left stunned by Gallop’s hardline stance when no player had been convicted of sexual assault, adding that the caution would quickly be forgotten.

“It’s fine for David Gallop to come out and say you can’t have group sex but the last thing blokes will be thinking about on a Friday night at the club is David Gallop,” said the player, speaking on the condition of anonymity. “I don’t know how a chief executive can come out and say we can’t have group sex if it’s consensual. It’s like discrimination because that is a person’s private life.

However as Maxine McKew points out, it seems the culture of group sex is alive and well at the ARL and that the players view women as falling into two classes. One where they can be treated as objects to be sexually abused, humiliated and discarded, and the other where they are “nice” women like their wives or girlfriends.

Maxine McKew urges players to consider;

What if this woman was your sister or your daughter?

Would you still be happy for her to be treated like that?

What do you think?

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168 Responses

  1. “………..Reports suggest that Johns sacking from Channel Nine will mean the end to the poorly rating “Footy Show” which also features another controversial figure Sam Newman…..”

    Reb,

    Sam Newman is on the AFL Footy Show. Matthew Johns is the NRL Footy Show.

    But yeah…….Newman is an idiot as well.

  2. I have no sympathy for the NRL or its so called ‘ornaments to the game’ and ‘role models’. The current ostrich who heads up the NRL should read his duty statement. He is responsible for the image of the game in case he doesn’t know it. Why is that relevant? It just so happens that another player with the same surname came to the attention of the NRL because he was using drugs. His sins were ignored because he was considered an ornament to the game. Now the NRL has the hide to lecture players about standards of behavior. It’s a bit late.

  3. I saw the Four Corners episode on Monday. Last night, as I was flicking around the glass teat, I stumbled on the intro to ACA’s “interview”, which started something like “the most anticipated interview in Australia”.

    Not by me. I switched over to “The Cook & The Chef”.

    If these morons, these complete and utter cretins, retards and toilet scum are so keen on standing around stark naked with each other fiddling with their hard-ons, why don’t they just f*** each other? Or do gay footballers make teh baby Jesus cry?

    I’d like to see the whole damn lot of them have their cocktail franks slowly hacked off over a period of a week or two with a rusty butter-knife by a gang of Amazonians, their testicles snipped and loaded into a double-barrel shotgun and fired up their backsides.

    But then, they’re so stupid, they’d probably enjoy that. Der.

  4. Yes, I agree reb.

    Australian Rugby League players are all women.

  5. Disclaimer:

    I profess that I know nothing about football, rugby, NRL, ARL, RSL, RSI or what all the different code things mean. Nor could I care less…

  6. Just some observations

    1) Its not just the NRL that has a problem. As Reb said AFL with “personalities” like Sam Newman also has a problem. The problem is “societal” and not just “sport centred”.
    2) Channel 9 has also “milked” the corpse of Johns’ career by following him around their own studio with a camera all yesterday followed by the interview.
    3) I don’t know why Johns would even contemplate giving Channel 9 an interview after he’d been sacked. I’d be saying “F off”.
    4) The fact that his wife was rolled out for further public humiliation is bizarre
    5) Did anyone catch the “Sunday Roast” last Sunday. Matthew Johns’ own brother Andrew, with the full knowledge that his brother was to be the feature of the 4 Corners program the following night, quipped words to the effect that… he wished all the mums out there a happy Mothers Day especially all the mothers who have children as a result of him. I could not believe what I was hearing.

    Everyone seems hell bent on “outdisgusting” each other.

  7. Astute observations there Walrus.

    I guess we can look foward to smiling pictures of Matthew Johns and his wife gracing the covers of New Idea “How our marriage survived…”

    and Johns’ biography “I didn’t mean to hurt you”.

  8. More here, including Pru Goward’s statement that the other players could face rape charges as well as a a link to the Maxine McKew video…

    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/813644/johns-called-on-to-name-other-players

  9. Will Matty name the other players?

    If the girl did consent to two players (in her right mind and not drunk) then how does that equate to consent to about another 12 predators?

    Why was it kept quiet for so long?

    I can’t believe the attitude of the current player in the article that reb linked to – it’s the girls fault apparently and group sex is their right.

    …He said group sex was largely initiated by women, and therefore the players felt unfairly targeted by criticism swirling around the game since a report by Four Corners…
    …You’re not supposed to say it publicly, but everyone knows that if you’re polite afterwards and pay her cab fare home you usually don’t have any problems.”
    …Another player said he believed group sex involving teammates was being phased out of the game, while several others refused to talk about the issue…

    Another player said he believed group sex involving teammates was being phased out of the game So how is the culture of group sex which is alive and well in the game still…initiated by women?

    Overpayed, over rated, oversexed and under intelligent. The other footy codes shouldn’t believe that they have been exempted from the spotlight either.

  10. ” I don’t know why Johns would even contemplate giving Channel 9 an interview after he’d been sacked. I’d be saying “F off”.”

    But he hasn’t been sacked – he has been ‘stood down by mutual agrrement’ without pay.
    They will make faux efforts to ‘rehabilitate’ him and in the not too distant future he’ll be back in fron of the cameras – same as they did with Sam Newman.

    Being cynical I’d bet the interview was payback for a promise of a future return to the screen.

  11. reb writes:

    One where they can be treated as objects to be sexually abused, humiliated and discarded, and the other where they are “nice” women like their wives or girlfriends.

    Those groupings have been in Australia since the First Fleet. As Anne Summers wrote in DAMNED WHORES AND GOD’S POLICE (1975):

    The traditional Judeo-Christian notion that all women could be categorised as being exclusively either good or evil – with the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene being the prototypes of each kind – was brought to Australia with the First Fleet.

    But its application to the women in this country was totally lop-sided. From 1788 until the 1840s almost all women were categorised as whores – or ‘damned whores’ as Lieutenant Ralph Clark called them.

    Hopefully, Johns will never be back and his brother should join him on the sidelines as well but I suspect it may only be a ‘sin bin’ sentence, forgiven after he attends something like a ‘rape crisis centre’ and then really understands what he did. Lol. Well it worked for the rehab of Hollingsworth, didn’t it?

    As for the Footy Show, I gave up watching it years ago but did I read where it won a Logie?

    BTW, ‘gang bangs’ atre not confined to League but have been common in Surf Clubs and the like for yonks.

  12. I couldn’t get over the coaches etc. and how they kept talking about how the players engage in risky behaviour on the field and its not like we can expect them to not engage in risky behaviour off the field.

    Firstly, I think this sort of thing goes way beyond ‘risky’ behaviour and secondly, how is that justification? That’s like saying ‘oh its ok to treat women like meat because we’re risk-takers and it makes us good at footy’.

    I’ve also been getting fairly enraged about the comments floating around the web from people who clearing didn’t watch the 4 Corners show and see the very clear distress that young woman felt, saying it was consensual so that makes it ok. I think it’d take some guts to stand up to a roomful of drunk footy players say no and get out of the room safely.

  13. In regards to footy players and their, ahem, sexual proclivities, I can only say;

    Up there Cazaly
    in there and fight
    Out there and at ’em
    Show us yer might……..

    Wrong code, I know, but it somehow seemed appropriate.

  14. I don’t condone what the palyers have done at all, but one needs to ask the question, why would a young lady go back to a room with one or more footballers who are fuelled with acohol. If they are that silly, then if it weren’t footballers it would be someone else, maybe with worse consequenses. There is no excuse for men behaving badly and th think they are part of the show when not invited, but by then the female has placed herself in a position she shoudn’t be in. The blonde lady (I’ll call her that anyway) who goes hunting at the Paddington Hotel with a harem self confesses she is on the hunt for footballers. She is nothing short of a predator, and should be castigated as well for leading young females with stars in their eyes astray. To say she is willing to have sex with the footballers but on her terms all the time is a joke….please. When you have an athelets or atheletes souped up with grog and attractive females with hormones heightened, to have sex always on her terms in a fanciful fantasy.

    This happened in 2002, since then Cronulla, the team involved have sacked 2 internationals altogether and suspended a major playmeker, they do seem to be doing the right thing.

    The ARL cannot be held responsible, it is the NRL’s competition, and they can’t be held responsible either.

    Surely as adults, the players need to be taking some sort of responsibility for their actions.

    The clubs aren’t blameless, when some prootect the offenders and they do put up the Cone of silence to remain competitive.

    The NRL can now become proactive and they look to have done that. They need to set up a private comissioner and look into all complaints, sexual or not.

    I would venture to say, if one looked deeply into AFL, Soccer or any other team sport where there are young males, preditory females,alcohol, they would find this type of behaviour.

    All and all it is a sad blight on our society and of course the game I love.

  15. I too am disgusted by John’s continuing defence that it was “consensual”.

    I find it hard to believe that the authorities in the NRL did not know about this. If they knew, why did they wait until the Four Corners program to do something about it? They should have acted as soon as they knew.

  16. Yeah huh, amazing how a short counselling session and a holiday can rehabilitate. Newman should have lost his job.

    We will probably see Johns back as a game commentator before too long. Ch 9 are going to sit back and see how the public feedback goes.

    It’s also quite amazing at the societal double standards, how many women (as well as men) buy into the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ girl moralising on dress and behaviour for women. ‘Bad’ girls somehow ‘deserve’ to be treated like second class citizens, because they don’t live within the demands of this patriarchal society and therefore can only have themselves to blame.

    What really burns me up is the degrading and unfeeling, insensitivity to the women concerned.

    They have group sex, imposed upon the women who have been plied with alcohol and/or drugs, have no control over the number of men involved let alone the huge power difference between one women and all those men. They then send the stunned and half comatose woman home in a taxi, and expect that it’s all to be forgotten? She was a willing participant? They don’t even care that she wants to kill herself afterwards and can’t let it go.

  17. joni, on May 14th, 2009 at 1:04 pm Said:

    Of course they knew about it. Just as they knew about the admitted drug taking by his brother Andrew well before he confessed………….what 2 years ago.

    In fact back in the late 1990s there was a player at a certain club whose had 2 nicknames. An onfield nick name and an off field social nickname.

    He was known as the “Chemist” for reasons that should be fairly clear.

  18. Well, this has been the standard for a long time hasn’t it. That gang bangs are part of the initiation into a ‘something’-hood. It used to be called manhood.

    A 19 year old girl could have had consensual sex with someone that she thought was special. But then Johns has something to answer as to why he called all the other men into the room to have sex with this teenage girl.

    My former brother in law (very former) used to boast how he had sex with 13 and 14 year old Aboriginal girls whenever he trucked it up to the Northern Territory.

  19. IATW – indeed. And that is why the administrators need to take some responsibility and blame for this. Just like Channel 9, who also probably knew about this.

  20. The whole cover up thing should not surprise anyone.

    I have a friend who is a professional lobbyist in Canberra and has been for many years. I cant tell you what he has told me over the years. But I guarantee it would make your hair stand on end. But there is an unwritten Canberra rule not to “Out the Truth”.

    Whether it is politics, business, sport, showbiz………the “Cult of Celebrity” lives in a world of its own and always prefers to remain out of the prying eyes of us mere punters.

  21. “I too am disgusted by John’s continuing defence that it was “consensual”.”

    Too true joni. Also the ‘police investigated and we were cleared’ meme. In a situation of her word against theirs and the likelihood they would lie to protect each other even if it had been non-consensual the police more than likely didn’t press charges because there wasn’t enough evidence likely to result in a conviction. Hardly the same as the police declaring them ‘innocent’,

    One of the things that annoyed me about John’s interview last night was his claim he ‘I did not commit an act of abuse to that woman”. Sorry, mate, hate to break it to you but that is exactly what you DID do. It may have been unintentional but it was still an act of abuse.

  22. From Kitty..and it’s worth a repeat:

    It’s also quite amazing at the societal double standards, how many women (as well as men) buy into the ‘good’ and ‘bad’ girl moralising on dress and behaviour for women. ‘Bad’ girls somehow ‘deserve’ to be treated like second class citizens, because they don’t live within the demands of this patriarchal society and therefore can only have themselves to blame.

    What really burns me up is the degrading and unfeeling, insensitivity to the women concerned.

    It’s worth a mention about why so few women who are raped, including teenagers are prepared to proceed with charges. The excuses are: it was consensual, she was asking for it, she was wearing a short mini skirt, she was wearing a low cut blouse. She was drunk. She knew what she was doing.

    Therefore it was all the responsibility of the teenage girl as to whether or not sexual intercourse took place and it is up to the teenage girl to prove whether or not this was consensual.

    I am certain that gay persons will also recognise the same excuses for what is rape. He/she was there and was ‘asking for it’.

    **A secondary item. Kitty, I wonder how the footy wives would be treated by the media should they be gang raped? I am certain that it would be along the lines of X’s wife ‘into’ group sex, X’s wife has botox and now seeks new beau.

  23. IATW – you would not be referring to certain “affairs” would you?

  24. Yes Joni I would be referring to those sorts of things.

    e.g. Gareth Evans and Kernot were a known item for ages before it was public.

    Then there are all the brothel crawlers as well…………..!

  25. Reb

    Reports suggest that Johns sacking from Channel Nine will mean the end to the poorly rating “Footy Show” which also features another controversial figure Sam Newman. As far as I’m concerned the end can’t come soon enough. Newman is a grotesque individual.

    I’m sure they’re on different Footy Shows – Johns on NRL and Newman on AFL.

  26. Frankly, the Johns revelation was the ‘straw that broke the camel’s back’ in my opinion. If the Brett Stewart saga wasn’t disgraceful enough or the Greg Bird ‘glassing’ of his girlfriend.

    Johns had comedic talent with his Reg Reagan character now I’m thinking Johns was playing a fictitious character and Reg represents the real Johns.

  27. I lived in Canberra/Queanbeyan for 15 years and am not suprised by the latest Rugby League revelations. In Canberra these sort of incidents involving Rugby League players used to be commonplace; assaults, rapes, and gang bangs. All was brushed over with the “boys will be boys” attitude. This is a culture which relishes the “let’s all be irresponsible together” approach to life. One afternoon when my 14 year old daughter was out riding, 3 Raiders players drove at her repeatedly until she fell off her horse. (allegedly because riding a horse made her a “silvertail”) She was told if she complained she would be raped)..one of these was a Rugby League international who had a spot on Canberra television. This same man, who lived nearby, used to be involved in catching possums and pet cats, having them declawed and using them for training greyhounds. The aggression of the people involved in this sport was breathtaking…as a developer of junior Aussie rules, I used to meet mothers bringing their children out to play Rules simply because in junior Rugby League young boys of 5 and 6 would be targeted by opposition coaches for “special attention”. Sexism and racism of the most depraved kind were routine. Anyone who played or followed any other football code was publicly regarded as a “f…..g fairy”. Gallop has his work cut out cleaning up this Augean stable.

  28. My former brother in law (very former) used to boast how he had sex with 13 and 14 year old Aboriginal girls whenever he trucked it up to the Northern Territory.

    But min, it’s only other Aboriginals who commit the sex crimes in Aboriginal communities isn’t it?

    Besides, if our society thinks that white women can be treated as second class citizens then Aboriginal girls (and all Aboriginals in general) must belong to the third class citizen category eh?

    Whether it is politics, business, sport, showbiz………the “Cult of Celebrity” lives in a world of its own and always prefers to remain out of the prying eyes of us mere punters.

    They are all complicit IATW, the culture of silence has to include the media – there are journalists who knew of this incident so why did they choose not to report it, not to do their jobs? The journalists are just too close to the celebrities in this country, they are part of the problem.

    (min) I wonder how the footy wives would be treated by the media should they be gang raped?

    you know min, if that did happen, I would not be surprised to find that the sympathies would mainly be with the footballer – the poor innocent guy. They probably would not even name the woman because that would add to the suffering of the poor man who has to bear his wife’s shame! The couple would probably divorce soon after.

  29. Vadi, on May 14th, 2009 at 2:05 pm Said:

    One afternoon when my 14 year old daughter was out riding, 3 Raiders players drove at her repeatedly until she fell off her horse. (allegedly because riding a horse made her a “silvertail”) She was told if she complained she would be raped)..

    Your poor daughter, she must have been so frightened. You can’t tell me that incident hasn’t affected her.

  30. When my eldest was 19 she was sexually harassed by a co-worker 20 years her senior. I couldn’t work out what was wrong..it was just statements from her, such as where are my old clothes. I asked why, she said So that these will make me ugly.

    Daughter quit the job and has never again worked in this field. The sick-o was sent to counselling but kept his job. He emailed me, Ha Ha, can’t stand the heat then get out of the kitchen.

  31. <a href=”http://www.sbs.com.au/sport/blog/single/109524/Shame-on-the-ABC-and-Nine-for-their-wrecking-of-Matthew-Johns/”This is a different view from SBS sport commentator/Blogger Jesse Fink. I don’t agree with him, but you may be interested in another point of view.

  32. Guido,

    Sorry got as far as “was one of the flimsiest stories ever to appear on Four Corners” and decided that the blokes opinion is not worth reading.

    Sorry, but John’s has admitted his part in the events of that night therefore I would hardly call the story ‘flimsy’.
    Sounds more like the story was not to his liking because it shines a light on an unsavoury aspect of the football culture.

  33. Rape’s one thing, but I’ve noticed a few here have a bit of a downer on footballers for having group sex.

    Lets not get too Presbyterian, comrades.

    As Bette Midler once said: “Two may be company, but three’s a party.”

  34. I wonder where Reg got this inspiration from?

  35. The behaviour was reprehensible and the lack of contrition even more so. As a mother and grandmother I am totally disgusted by this tawdry episode. High time in this country that sporting administrators took a long hard look at their role in perpetrating this type of behaviour, given that covering up this sort of crap is to my mind being a willing participant.
    And quite frankly I think that when our PM can be so outspoken in his condemnation about Henson photos,but so circumspect about criticism of boofhead fottballers who really do perpetrate abuse on women it really says so much about the lack of respect for women in our society.

  36. Totally agree Robbo.

    The PM extolled such outrage about Henson’s photographs, but tip toes around the issue of real life sexual abuse of young women and vile conduct of sports people.

  37. The Rugby League culture is rotten. Full stop. After the Bulldogs crimes in Coffs Harbour went unpunished, nothing would surprise me. The Coffs Harbour victim is still whispered about in her community and blamed for what happened. Again, no-one was charged because the police were nobbled from above. But if she was my daughter, I would have got me a gun …

  38. I was very disappointed that Maxine and Pru and a few others commented prematurely and without checking the facts. Since when was one person’s account taken to be the truth, especially 7 years after the incident took place? It seems now a work colleague doesn’t agree with the woman’s account. I am not condoning what the men did. I don’t know what they did and I don’t think Maxine, Pru or any others so quick to condemn know either. Please check the facts before you make complete fools of yourselves.

  39. And quite frankly I think that when our PM can be so outspoken in his condemnation about Henson photos,but so circumspect about criticism of boofhead fottballers who really do perpetrate abuse on women it really says so much about the lack of respect for women in our society.

    I agree completely robbo, misogyny pervades so much of Australian culture.

    High time in this country that sporting administrators took a long hard look at their role in perpetrating this type of behaviour, given that covering up this sort of crap is to my mind being a willing participant.

    Mine too. The media is complicit also, journalists sat on this story for seven years, and yes, they’re all just as guilty if they choose to cover it up.

    mary, on May 14th, 2009 at 8:58 pm Said:

    I was very disappointed that Maxine and Pru and a few others commented prematurely and without checking the facts.

    And how did prue and maxine comment prematurely? This incident happened didn’t it? Consent is still a major issue as maxine rightfully states, if she consents to one man, two or even three, how does that equate to individual consent of sex with 12 men? Massive imbalance of power is still an issue.

    Since when was one person’s account taken to be the truth, especially 7 years after the incident took place?

    Since she was there and it happened to her. Why don’t we call it what it really is – gang rape. Why does it matter how long ago it happened? Does the passing of time mean events did not happen?

    It seems now a work colleague doesn’t agree with the woman’s account.

    Was the work colleague in the room, did she witness what happened?

    I am not condoning what the men did.

    Sounds a lot like you are.

    Rational responses to trauma (Kiwipolitico)

    Tania Boyd, having not been there, can’t know whether consent was given – only if Clare – the victim – implied (to her, after the fact) that consent was given. She can’t know the truth of the situation since the victim may well have implied to her that there was consent when there wasn’t…

    …As to the second statement, if Clare genuinely is traumatised now, then it follows that she was traumatised in the initial four days, it just wasn’t apparent to Tania Boyd, which isn’t really surprising at all given that her response was not one of support but of disgust…

    …As to the third statement, the answer to Ms Boyd’s question is – yes, these things do take time to sink in. According to a family member with extensive professional experience in this field, the median period of time between incidence and reporting of rape is eighteen and three-quarter years; viewed in this light four days seems very rapid indeed.

  40. Since she was there and it happened to her. Why don’t we call it what it really is – gang rape.

    We don’t call it ‘gang rape’, or even ‘rape’, because none of it has been tested, not even by our resident first wave feminist; at best we call it an allegation, and are very careful about attaching an assertion of absolutely prejudicial criminality to something which remains an allegation by one party, under those circumstances. Even Prue had enough common sense to use the requisite weasel words.

  41. Or, to make myself more plain, work through the significance of your own statement as it applies to yourself…

    Was the work colleague in the room, did she witness what happened?

    …and thence other actors who apparently ‘knew’ this or that, and should have done this or that, or were somehow complicit in this or that, per your account.

  42. Even Prue had enough common sense to use the requisite weasel words.

    Sorry, fresh out of weasel words.

    …at best we call it an allegation, and are very careful about attaching an assertion of absolutely prejudicial criminality to something which remains an allegation by one party, under those circumstances.

    Yeah, what circumstances of 12 men vs one teenager would be OK?

    …not even by our resident first wave feminist;

    The first wave of feminism dates from around 1848-1920 when the right to vote was the primary concern. A little too far back for me. Try the second wave (1960 -1980’s).

  43. The first wave of feminism dates from around 1848-1920 when the right to vote was the primary concern. A little too far back for me. Try the second wave (1960 -1980’s).

    Really? Not trying to cast a (deciding) vote on a controverted question for a public space? Share no affinities as an apparently ‘radical’ feminist drawing on the wellsprings of oppression of women as a class, and the dialectic of totalising power in the form of latent and patent patriarchal domination? Perhaps the second wave forgets its roots?

  44. Just a round about way of suggesting that the second wave draws on particular fractions of the first, not that it matters to the analysis, even as feminism itself has ceased to be a monobloc ideology, perhaps to some feminists’ chagrins. (You’ll be happy to note, however, that I did observe the MSMeeja spent an awful lot of time highlighting some few womens’ rationalisations for the whole affair on their Facebook outpourings with no counter provided to the viewer, so I do have some awareness of where you’re coming from, at least.)

  45. Perhaps the second wave forgets its roots?

    Equality? No, I don’t think so.

    …and the dialectic of totalising power in the form of latent and patent patriarchal domination?

    You mean 12 burly men vs one teenage girl?

  46. Yeah, what circumstances of 12 men vs one teenager would be OK?

    The one in which we don’t impose a judgement before a hearing, and other elements of due process; some of us liberal types are quite big on due process.

    Sorry, fresh out of weasel ords.

    You may be out, but I’d suggest even that works against your apparent cause. Inciting popular prejudice makes it difficult pursue a case should one ensue in a relevant place, not to mention that potentially defaming people might register in separate civil and/or criminal sanction. Which is why sensible people tend not to be out when they aren’t putting the cart before the horse, and why Pru might be wise in asserting relevant persons might face charges, but doesn’t assert that due process is unnecessary in pursuit of her particular convictions on the matter.

  47. (You’ll be happy to note, however, that I did observe the MSMeeja spent an awful lot of time highlighting some few womens’ rationalisations for the whole affair on their Facebook outpourings with no counter provided to the viewer, so I do have some awareness of where you’re coming from, at least.)

    Yeah, the last para from the kiwipolitico site I linked to previously re the work colleague.

    …This story is being deployed without qualification in apologia for the men in this incident, whereas articles advocating Clare’s perspective are strongly hedged so as to make clear that the facts of the case haven’t really been established. The headline goes beyond euphemistically describing the events as `group sex’ and calls it a `romp’, for goodness’ sakes.

    Inciting popular prejudice makes it difficult pursue a case should one ensue in a relevant place, not to mention that potentially defaming people might register in separate civil and/or criminal sanction.

    I would say that most articles and TV stories here are strongly asserting the ‘consensual sex’ line. Just because there is no conviction or enough evidence to convict, doesn’t mean no crime took place and doesn’t mean she consented to sex with each and all of those guys. So just who is the victim of prejudice here?

  48. Just because there is no conviction or enough evidence to convict, doesn’t mean no crime took place and doesn’t mean she consented to sex with each and all of those guys.

    Mostly agreed, but with the same qualification I adverted to earlier: in the absence of such a conviction it’s impossible to assert that the alleged crime did take place per the relevant standard as a fact about that alleged crime and/or a fact about those persons to whom such criminal turpitude is to be attached. As an opinion about the likelihood of the alleged crime having taken place, and on the basis of some sufficient evidence to sustain a claim about that likelihood, it’s probably fine; as an assertion of fact that the crime was committed in substitute for, or in advance of, due process and a conviction, and on the basis of untested evidences and not evidence of that conviction, it probably isn’t. Imho. It was on that basis that your comment caught my attention, with its implicit assertion of ‘is-ness’.

    So just who is the victim of prejudice here?

    All parties to the matter, and the whole of society besides; because, arguably, an important piece of justice, being due process, has been taken from every one of them. And that’s why we don’t call it what it ‘is’ until it ‘is what it is’; and until then, it’s an allegation about what it ‘is’ or might be.

  49. Yeah, the last para from the kiwipolitico site I linked to previously re the work colleague.

    And an interesting exercise in narrativity it is; with glaring, self-inconsistent, pseudo-(il)logical flaws. But that’s all I have to say about that piece, since it forgets it’s painting another ‘maybe’ picture and consciously fails to present the flip-side of the cognitive forces that might (have) be(en) in play (it’s just one link deep from the author’s select wiki link, and begins with b, and probably would be raised by those who would raise it to seek a fuller account for the potential origins for the phenomenon posed by the colleague’s contrary account). Mostly good use of tentative words, though…may, might, seem, could be seen, don’t know, can’t know, if, etcetera. But still no ‘is’ or ‘was’. 😉

  50. Perhaps interesting is the Hand Mirror link off the kiwipolitico link; it begins to touch on some of the more nuanced arguments and critical debates possible, particularly within and among the comments it inspired.

  51. Speak of the devil (in the detail) – Facebook groups may compromise Phillip Halipias trial.

  52. The more I keep hearing about all this the more I lean towards a more “it takes 12 to tango” outlook. Especially after hearing from her work colleague.

    And Kitty spare me the time lapse crap. The fact of the matter according to her work colleague is that she was proud of it all immediately after the fact.

    And what else has gone on in this woman’s life that might have also turned her into the wreck she seems to be now.

    And why does she still deserve anonimity ?

    What is she………………………. a dentist ?

    She’s come up with some major allegations which are now being strongly contested all behind a cloak of anonimity.

  53. Kitty

    I’m no psychiatrist, however, I do have training and a fairly good grasp of mental health issues. Clare (I use her name because she is a person) may indeed have been a ready and willing participant, and from all reports now, she allegedly bragged about her experience. This, many are saying is proof she was in large part also responsible.

    She allegedly lodged a complaint and went into hiding ever since.

    What if this is indeed true, however, her seemingly irrational behaviour has a rational explanation. For example, ‘bipolar disorder’ otherwise known ‘manic-depression’may have been a major contributing factor.

    In fact, someone suffering from this mental illness is more likely to seek out these types of experiences simply as a result of having the illness.

    Bipolar disorder is characterized by extreme changes in mood (poles) — from mania to depression. Between these mood swings, a person with bipolar disorder may experience normal moods.

    “Manic” describes an increasingly restless, energetic, talkative, reckless, powerful, euphoric period. Lavish spending sprees or impulsive risky sex can occur. Then, at some point, this high-flying mood can spiral into something darker — irritation, confusion, anger, feeling trapped.

    “Depression” describes the opposite mood — sadness, crying, sense of worthlessness, loss of energy, loss of pleasure, sleep problems

    We also know, that Johns’ brother, Andrew, suffers from this same condition, and that, it too was responsible for his turning to drugs in an attempt to self-medicate.

    I can’t help but think that her mental health was and is a central factor in this whole sordid affair.

    As for Johns’ and other participants, they’ve got to step up to the plate on moral grounds and not remain in hiding simply because nothing illegal had occurred. Failure to do so, only reinforces the fact that they’re morally bankrupt.

  54. John McPhilbin, on May 15th, 2009 at 9:35 am Said:

    Good God John I’m starting to agree with you…………………………………….Oh…………..it’s not an Economics thread.

    I feel sorry for the whole lot of them. For the woman for being naive or mentally unstable (which no one even seems to contemplate) and for the guys because obviously they had a pretty poor upbringing if they get their rocks off “tuggin’ on their toad” while a mate of their’s has sex…………………Weird !

  55. Spot on Walrus….and you’ll end up agreeing with me on economics before the year’s out as well (wink)

  56. If only there was a camera there to catch them tossing off. Imagine how powerful that would be in altering their behaviour and attitudes. F$^king wankers.

  57. Walrus..yes the girl does need anonimity or else you can imagine what a mish mash the popular press would make of the whole thing..such as dredging up how old she was when she first had sex/contacting former boyfriends. Well..you can imagine it.

    And John McP..the fact that no one has yet stepped up to the plate suggests that the then teenage girl may not have consented to sex with at least some of them. Under NSW criminal law, she needs to have said, No I don’t want any more..go away. Or that she was intoxicated or otherwise have impaired judgement.

  58. Min

    And John McP..the fact that no one has yet stepped up to the plate suggests that the then teenage girl may not have consented to sex with at least some of them. Under NSW criminal law, she needs to have said, No I don’t want any more..go away. Or that she was intoxicated or otherwise have impaired judgement.

    Absolutely Min, I’m simply playing devil’s advocate which in no way lets them off the hook.

  59. Min, on May 15th, 2009 at 9:56 am Said:

    No that is purely speculative what the Press might or might not do.

    Why should the other Cronulla players “out” themselves and their families as a result of her accusations and yet she gets to throw the barbs with the “curtains firmly drawn around her” ?

  60. Walrus..well it’s a fairly good guess-timate about what the popular press would do. They could have people scurrying around, for example (paying?) former work mates for interviews. But quite right it is just speculation.

    The reason that there is a curtain drawn around victims of sexual abuse is obvious. What would happen if it was open slather with photos of victims plastered all over the newspapers. The obvious answer is that far fewer victims (and this includes men and boys) would be prepared to press charges. Currently (I believe) only about 40% of victims of sexual abuse report their rape. This % is quite a lot less for men and boys.

  61. Min, on May 15th, 2009 at 10:23 am Said:

    Well the obvious flaw to your argument for anonimity is ……………there were NO charges !

    If there were then I’m fine with anonimity.

    But her accusations are now aimed at destroying lives………..she said so herself.

    Its about revenge !

  62. If only there was a camera there to catch them tossing off.

    John McPhilbin, on May 15th, 2009 at 9:51 am Said:

    That’s a great idea John. I’ve got a mate at Channel Nine who I might suggest that too.

    They could roll out Bert Newton to host another “20 to 1”.

  63. Walrus and Min

    I think the mystery of who was in the room and what happened will prove to be a very powerful motivator for the media, frankly, sooner of later names will be leaked and questions asked.

    I tend to think it may be better for them to come forward and tell their side rather than remaining quiet.

    Johns said the other night that he’s been living in fear for 7 years about getting a phone call from the media questioning him over these events. Surely, others involved share a similar fear. I know I’d be ‘shitting myself’ if I were in their shoes. It’s all fun and games when everyone’s pissed.

  64. Walrus, ‘Clare’ contacted police 5 days after the incident. This in spite of the blah on the press viz the opinion of a unknown co-worker (who is likewise unnamed)..is normal. It can sometimes take victims of sexual abuse several days, even months and even years to find the courage to take action.

    From: http://www.leaguehq.com.au/articles/2009/05/14/1241894109113.html

    Psychiatrists reported that she was suicidal, had cut her wrists several times and bought a rope to hang herself.

    And a revenge scenario certainly isn’t out of the ordinary for victims..

    She said the destructive period lasted about four or five years and she was now speaking out to let the wives and girlfriends of those involved know what they had done…

    “I hate them. They disgust me. For all that they did, I hate them so much.”

    One has to wonder if the victim had been someone for example, a teenager raped by a priest but who didn’t report the event for 20 years that they would be treated by the media as per Clare. It used to be argued in court that any delay in going to the police was ‘proof’ that the event was consensual. Fortunately, a lot more work has done since those days about reactions of victims, so much so that events that occurred years and years ago are now taken seriously.

    And likewise, it’s just speculation that ‘Clare’ had consensual sex with all the males involved. It is unknown why the police did not proceed with the original charges.

  65. John McP..very obviously Johns knows who was in the room with him and has a fair idea about who were participants and who were observers.

    The question obviously is why has Johns living in fear for the past 7 years. And is it just because his Missus might find out?

  66. There are often a range of reasons that police don’t proceed to prosecution, and many of the reasons are entirely irreverent to whether a crime has been committed.

    For example – quality & weight of evidence, availability of police resources, as well as likelihood, cost and consequence of extradition back to New Zealand.

    There were similar allegations made about a couple of St Kilda players a few years ago, that did not proceed to prosecution.

    Cases of sexual assault ought to be prosecuted and tested in court. Make those involved defend their behaviour even if it doesn’t result in a conviction.

  67. But her accusations are now aimed at destroying lives………..she said so herself.

    oh, how terrible that a woman who has had her own life destroyed by this episode should feel revengeful. If her name were made public right now, people would be trawling through her dress, behaviour and attitudes since she was 12 years old and anything used against her to justify what happened to her – the old ‘good’ vs ‘bad’ girl picture.

    Don’t you think that ever since this program was aired and Johns has been stood down the rugby industry, the media (who wrote nothing about it at the time) wouldn’t be out to get her in any way they can, for revenge?

    John McP
    I have no idea of the Clare’s mental state prior to the incident, but it was certainly an issue afterwards since she wanted to commit suicide and felt ‘useless’, she was even given public compensation to aid her recovery.

    League group sex left woman suicidal

    The New Zealand Accident and Compensation Commission found that ‘Clare’ was suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, funded treatment for her, and gave her a weekly payment in compensation.

    She went to the police but no charges were laid. All the players involved have said that the sex was consensual.

    it also does not sound like she consented, from the same ABC article she went back to the room with Johns and Firman, but there was no consent given for the other players and ‘staff’. Why would Matty Johns apologise to the woman afterwards in the carpark for the other people, if he did not feel guilty about them (but not guilty enough to tell the truth), Matty was the one who instigated it, who ‘egged’ the others on according to Clare.

    “Every time I looked up, there would be more and more people in the room”

    All those guys decided they would stick together like glue and say ‘consensual sex’ which is why there is not enough evidence to convict – doesn’t mean it’s right or that they are innocent of the crime.

  68. ………. viz the opinion of a unknown co-worker (who is likewise unnamed)..

    Min, on May 15th, 2009 at 11:10 am Said:

    She is not unnamed. Her name is Tania Boyd.

    And Kitty………………it sounds like “Clare” was already on a self destroying path if she agrees to sex with 2 of them and then brags about it………which then in a small town would result in public ridicule……..resulting in suicide attempts.

    Would’nt you say there was something already wrong with a girl who wants to do it with 2 guys and then brags to a co worker that when others appeared she said “Bring it on”

    No one is untainted in this episode………..she was no angel but still prefers anonimity and frankly there is no good reason why she should remain entitled to it.

  69. Tom. I agree. The sad news is that most women (plus men and boys of course) do not proceed with charges much past the original complaint to police.

    And most of this relates to as you say, the quality & weight of evidence and as assessed by local police officers. For a 19 yr old girl to agree to proceed with charges against a high profile football team would have taken a very courageous girl indeed..plus a lot of backup support.

  70. I stand corrected Walrus. The co-worker from 7 years ago has come forward.

  71. And Kitty spare me the time lapse crap. The fact of the matter according to her work colleague is that she was proud of it all immediately after the fact.

    Sorry Walrus, but people who have suffered from a traumatic event are not always perfectly rational in their behaviour and responses afterwards. She was diagnosed with PTSD.

    Assault characteristics and posttraumatic stress disorder in rape victims:

    A diagnosis of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) encompasses several of the symptoms associated with the response to rape. The object of this study was to determine the incidence of PTSD among 51 rape victims and to compare the groups with and without PTSD with respect to the characteristics of the assaults. The results showed that 70% of the victims had PTSD and further suggested that PTSD was likely to be a long-term problem for these women.

    And Kitty………………it sounds like “Clare” was already on a self destroying path if she agrees to sex with 2 of them and then brags about it………which then in a small town would result in public ridicule……..resulting in suicide attempts.

    Who isn’t guilty of making poor decisions at 19 years of age? Also have you never known a teenager to be full of bravado when they are confronted by ‘disgust’ and ‘shaming’ by others? Then they go home and cry about it in private.

    Public ridicule – what does that say about our society when the girl is publicly ridiculed and the men are publicly lauded?

  72. Kitty

    Why would Matty Johns apologise to the woman afterwards in the carpark for the other people, if he did not feel guilty about them (but not guilty enough to tell the truth), Matty was the one who instigated it, who ‘egged’ the others on according to Clare.

    In perverse sort of way, perhaps as captain of the team he felt it necessary to share the spoils. Very primitive behaviour, indeed. Then, the good guy persona kicks in and he decides that maybe it wasn’t such a good idea because her demeanor changes to one of fear and disgust, but she fears resisting because she’s outnumbered and well and truly at the mercy of the group.

    That’s another theory that fits.

  73. Thank heavens for having you Kitty..wonderful to have a knowledgable person, plus the voice of reason.

    Very obviously all the men involved would be repeating verbatim consensual, consensual, consensual or else they would be admitting to a criminal offence. Obviously already primed by their League paid lawyers.

    Kitty..’staff’?? And so other than players were involved?

    That would be normal..a girl goes to the police and the police lay the facts on the table, that her name and the name of her family will be dragged through the mud. That her previous sexual history would be part of the defence of the ‘victims’ (whoops perpetrators). That she would need to employ at minimum a barrister and did her family really have enough money to be able to afford this. Is this what you really want girlie? Case closed, the person wishes not to proceed with the complaint.

  74. Min

    I agree, Kitty puts forward a strong argument

  75. And you too John McP…

  76. Min

    It absolutely disgust me that some people can behave like they do. I heard similar stories in the military but had never witnessed it happening. The mentality is primitive, hostile and degrading.

    It’s as though these guys view the whole experience as a type of bonding session. That’s what mates are for right? Unbelievable!

  77. John. You say it very well. There are now in place, in most workplaces sexual harrassment policies..and this most definitely includes the armed services. But mind you, I still would not want a daughter of mine to join the armed services unless there are good men such as my son as back up support.

    Sadly, a lot of workplaces still consider that sexual harrassment is a bit of a joke.

  78. Kitty..’staff’?? And so other than players were involved?

    …She went back to their hotel room with them, and told Four Corners that over the next two hours at least 12 Cronulla players and staff came in to the room. Six of them had sex with her while the others watched.

    “They were massive, like big rugby players. I felt that I just had no idea what to do. There was always hands on me,” she said.

    ‘Clare’ says that whenever she opened her eyes there was a long line of people at the end of the bed.

    “I thought I was worthless, and I thought I was nothing. I think I was in shock. I didn’t scream. They used a lot of mental power over me and belittled me,” she said.

    She said Mr Johns played a key role in the incident.

    “He laughed and he joked and he was very loud and boisterous and thought it was hilarious and you know kept it going,” ‘Clare’ remembered….

  79. kittylitter, on May 15th, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    I dont buy that “players and staff” thing.

    She already has said she could not identify all the Players involved. So how do we know if staff were involved.

    In your defence I note what you posted was not a direct quote from “Clare” but seemed to be from a “voice over”.

  80. And Kitty whilst I hear what you are saying there are still too many contradictions in what we know so far. None of it really fits together neatly.

    We’ll likely never know the truth so I’ll leave this thread at that.

    Oh……….and didn’t Fatty Vautin show what a goose he was last night. If you missed it in a promo before the NRL Footy Show went to air he did a quick live to air promo describing what was in the show at 9:30pm and then stated

    ” We have the whole she-bang on tonight”

    A very poor choice of words indeed.

  81. Walrus. Re: ‘she could not identify all of the Players involved’. And this is precisely the sort of scrutiny victims of sexual assault are subjected to. What’ya’mean that you can’t identify the men involved? You just had sex with them, so surely you know what they looked like.

  82. Min,

    I’m saying if she cant identify the players how can she identify the staff………….?

    So we cannot safely say staff were involved …!

    Its not that relevant anyway since the whole thing is all too “murky” to say the least

  83. She already has said she could not identify all the Players involved. So how do we know if staff were involved.

    I think in the 4 Corners story Clare said support staff as well as players.

    So, if she can’t identify or even know who they are – why would she consent to sex with them? Also some others climbed in through the bathroom window – why would they do that if they were invited in by Clare, presumably they would enter through the front door?

    Matty Johns was apparently completely unaware of a group of noisy, drunk, yahooing footballers in the room?

    None of it really fits together neatly.

    Yeah, especially the consent to sex issue.

    Life doesn’t always fit neatly together. Sorry that Clare didn’t think to make it all a nice, neat, open and shut case. Tell me, how many men after a night of consensual group sex apologise to the woman afterwards?

    Miranda Devine

    Clare, described by a detective as a “nice girl … young, naive, not worldly, just a growing up teenager”, said she was suicidal for years after the incident…

    …Plenty of young women are neither assertive nor articulate enough to stand up to charismatic older football stars. Johns was 30 at the time, and married. He knew better.

    I’ll leave this thread now, (I really don’t have anything else to offer in debate). I still think that consent is the major issue and the massive power imbalance in that room on that night.

  84. And likewise Kitty. And to repeat what you have stated so well, consent is the major issue and especially ‘the massive power imbalance’.

  85. Sorry Kitty I just cant buy the “Sisterhood can do no wrong line”.

    There’s a lot more to it. You seem to just want to blame the Players for what happened without blame being attached to her in any shape or form.

    Look at the other woman on 4 Corners who actively pursues footballers for sex.

    There are too many conflicting accounts of what happened to “Clare”. Or whatever her real name might be

    Anyway I’m leaving this Thread as well.

  86. Look at the other woman on 4 Corners who actively pursues footballers for sex.

    Oh, look over there, a spider is crawling up the wall!
    relevance to Clare’s situation – how?

    Does that mean, in your eyes, that the other woman is not deserving of basic respect? that she is a second class citizen? And because of her actively pursuing sex, then the same applies to Clare? with 12 men? What if Clare had been targeted long before she even agreed to go back to a room with two of them? What if she was only planning to have sex with one of them?

    The other woman (Charmyne Palavi?) completely admitted what she does, she also says it is consensual for a start and that she controls the situation, on her terms, not theirs. Having said that, she also said that she was raped by a high profile player too.

    It certainly didn’t sound like Clare consented or had any control over what eventually happened to her.

    (Professor Catherine Lumby) says sports players and other men need to understand all women deserve to be treated respectfully.

    “The focus has been on getting guys to recognise that there are not two classes of women,” she said.

    “There are not women you can treat like trash, and blame and shame for sexual conduct, and good women who are your wives or your girlfriends or your sisters or your daughters.

    “All women deserve to be treated with a basic level of decency.”

  87. Kittylitter,

    If you look at some of the other statements Prof Lumby has made, she seems to come down more on the side of the players (she is being employed by the NRL after all).

    PETA DONALD: There have been stories of a culture of group sex in Rugby League. What do you think of group sex? Do you think it’s okay if it’s consensual?

    CATHERINE LUMBY: Speaking as an academic, I think that there’s no problem with any behaviour which is consensual in sexual terms, many people would disagree with me. But if we’re talking about rock stars having sex with a range of women they’re not married to, people do not, generally speaking, think that’s outrageous.

    I think that one of the cultures that we need to look at in terms of our social attitudes is that we demand this incredibly high standard from young people involved in sport that we don’t demand of celebrities in other areas.

    PETA DONALD: You don’t think there’s any connection between non-consensual sex and group sex, necessarily?

    CATHERINE LUMBY: I think… personally, I can say to you I know from empirical experience that there are lots of people who have group sex consensually. It’s very clear that when somebody says ‘no’, they mean no. And I don’t think it matters if you’re a rock star or a footballer or Joe Bloggs, people have a right to say no to sexual activity, and it doesn’t matter if they’ve had sex with 10 people before or nobody.

    PETA DONALD: There are some who would argue that this situation needs a really hard line when it comes to telling these blokes in Rugby League, ‘look, enough is enough with this misogynist culture, it’s time for you to make some tough changes and for the whole culture to change’, but it doesn’t sound like that’s the direction that you’re pushing?

    CATHERINE LUMBY: I think the term “misogyny” is a really simplistic and dated one, frankly. I mean, it’s a tough term and it needs to be used in some cases. I mean, I think… can I reiterate, young Rugby League players are pretty akin to young supermodels. These guys are images and bodies that are bought and sold and traded in the community.

    PETA DONALD: Are you suggested they’re victims, as it were?

    CATHERINE LUMBY: I never would suggest they’re victims, and I would never suggest, can I reiterate, that anybody deserves to be assaulted or harassed sexually, but what I’m saying is if we’re looking at fixing the problem, if indeed there is one, if we’re looking at fixing it, we don’t do it by simply telling them they’re misogynists.

  88. Kitty……………………..you are just grasping at so many different “what ifs” I’m not going to bother anymore.

    All these “perhaps”……”maybes” it just becomes extremely tiresome arguing with you since you wont stick just to what we do know and the conflicts that seemingly are arising.

    And by the way. It’s not just us “guys” who are now doubting at least some of “Clares” story. Look at the blogs and not just this one.

    There seem to be plenty of women as well who have serious reservations as to whether “Clare” is telling all the truth.

    But you just attempt to ridicule anyone who raises the most fundamental of suspicions or conflicts.

    Clearly you are not the type that will sit down and look at the facts and any inconsistencies in what we know. Because those sorts of things dont sit at all well with your view of the World. You have already decided that you already know what happened that night.

    Thank God you are not in the Judiciary and we dont have the Death Penalty. As there would be a lot of innocents going to the gallows on the slimmest of evidence.

  89. I don’t think so at all tony,

    Saturday Extra, Radio National

    Catharine Lumby: … I have a deep and long-standing commitment as a feminist, to changing these sorts of behaviours and attitudes to women. I take the very strong view that it is the responsibility of men in that situation to get consent — and by consent I mean full consent. I’m talking about it’s not OK to get consent to one kind of behaviour or act and then to invite your mates in…

    …Catharine Lumby: Absolutely. If you get a group of guys, and I realise people are going to have strong moral views about group sex, I’m not promoting group sex, but let’s be real: if it happens in a context where guys go in with the attitude that any woman who does this is trash and so we’re going to blame and shame her for being involved in something we’re enjoying, then you are going to have probably terrible outcomes for the woman, and maybe even assaults occur…

  90. Kittylitter,

    My link: 6th March, 2004.

    Your link: 9th May, 2009.

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and say her views have ‘modified’ in the past five years.

  91. “………………that it is the responsibility of men in that situation to get consent — and by consent I mean full consent. I’m talking about it’s not OK to get consent to one kind of behaviour or act and then to invite your mates in……..”

    Yet she (Clare) happily bragged to Tania Boyd that she told the group in the room to “bring it on”.

  92. Walrus..that is according to Tania Boyd ‘she bragged’ and you say ‘happily’. I should imagine, that it’s don’t believe everything that you read in the newspapers.

    It could be that a young lady feels inclined to a bit of public humiliation re having sex with a football team. And maybe the fact that she went to the police says something.

    She maybe just an opportunist who wants to get her name in the newspapers. Oh hang on, she wants to remain anonymous.

  93. Thank God you are not in the Judiciary and we dont have the Death Penalty. As there would be a lot of innocents going to the gallows on the slimmest of evidence.

    And if you were in the judiciary, there would be a lot of guilty men going free, because the woman has to wear ‘some of the blame’ for her own assault. According to you, she cannot be a victim of something more than she consented to.

    There seem to be plenty of women as well who have serious reservations as to whether “Clare” is telling all the truth.

    Yeah, there’s no shortage of judgemental women when it comes to sex, it’s not only men who buy into the ‘good’ girl and ‘bad’ girl double standard.

  94. Hi kitty. I have to choof. Am thinking of what the law was like eons ago where if a girl wore a mini skirt or a low cut blouse then she was asking for it. Gratefully most men these days realise when No means no.

    I am certain that most men realise that having group sex even if the girl seemed to be ‘willing’ that they do have some responsibility in this matter.

    I am thinking of the teenagers who filmed the sexual humiliation of a girl who they knew was intellectually disabled. They said, But she enjoyed it. She didn’t scream for help. Therefore it wasn’t assault. The court decided otherwise.

  95. See Kitty…………………You use “slimmest of evidence” out of context.

    I’m telling you to stop judging BEFORE you have all the facts. But no you have already decided on guilt.

    Min, on May 15th, 2009 at 6:02 pm Said:

    What are you gibbering on about……..?

    Tania Boyd was on TV saying “Clare” bragged about it to a packed bar. I did not read it in the Newspapers.

    And at least Tania Boyd had the guts to give her name. And I have yet to hear of anyone disputing her account.

    But perhaps they will………………………….??????????

    But hang on……………….how f*****g stupid of me to keep an open mind on the whole matter.

    Sorry………………………..But I cant make any sense out of the rest of your post.

  96. And now it emerges, as an allegation I note, that she has previous “form” in relation to other football teams.

    But I will keep an open mind and wait for the facts before condemning every single player in the NRL or the Super 14…………….Thank god they dont play AFL in NZ………………..Wait a minute…………….hold the whistle………..we do have a Soccer scandal going at the moment….and they do play the World Game in NZ.

    “Off with all their balls”……… as Kitty and Min would say

  97. I still think the Hand Mirror link, as short on content as it was, managed to cover a far more nuanced range, even and particularly of the consent and power issues, which tells me that someones are pushing thin barrows. 😉

  98. It goes something like this: say ‘yes’ to one, and you have to accept that it means ‘yes’ to his mates. That’s the NRL code. By doing this, women are servicing the needs of the team.

    Woman breaks silence over Broncos incident
    http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25493907-5001021,00.html
    THE woman at the centre of sexual-assault allegations against three Brisbane Broncos in a nightclub toilet last year has come forward with her story in the wake of the crisis that has rocked rugby league.

    She told of the speed at which the situation got out of her control and the anguish she has endured.

  99. ..it’s certainly viewed as a bonding thing amongst players.

  100. Claire Harvey has a real point to make when she raises the attitude taken by Fatty and the boys on the Footy Show, they’ve also enjoyed lampooning the gay community. For the record, Ian Roberts, was a great footy player, end of story, yet sexual orientation seems to be a preoccupation on the show.

    The Footy Show adds insult to injury
    http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25493008-5001030,00.html

    Ian Roberts was sitting at home watching that night.

    He wanted to be sick. Roberts had felt nauseous ever since he’d heard about Johns’ group sex incident.

    He’d tuned into The Footy Show to see what Johns would say, and was disappointed that the apology, and Johns’ subsequent remarks, have focused mainly on the pain of his own wife and family.

    About the girl involved, Johns has repeatedly said he’s sorry for her “embarrassment and pain” – implying that although she was an entirely willing participant at the time, she is now motivated by shame and anger.

    “It was almost like he was the victim, that she asked for it,” Roberts told me. “My God – that poor woman has suffered for all this time.

    I’ve been hearing talkback callers this week saying she’s being vindictive, that she asked for it. My God, she was 19!

    “It’s taken her seven years to mature. She was totally outnumbered in the room. She was a defenceless human being.

    She was alone with all those men, and none of them said, ‘Come on, guys, that’s enough.’ Not one of them was man enough to admit to this before now, and none of the other men who were in that room are brave enough to own their actions, to step up now and say ‘Yeah, it was me.’

    “And anyone who says she asked for it – shame on you. She was just a kid.”

    Roberts knows what The Footy Show is all about. In 1997, he was interviewed by Paul Vautin on the show. “We heard you were gay,” Vautin said, “but we thought, ‘That couldn’t be right because he’s too decent a bloke!’ ”

    The Elton Johns sketch didn’t make Roberts laugh.

    “I was really disturbed to see Andrew Johns involved in that sketch, and Tim Sheridan,” Roberts said.

    “Guys, what you don’t understand – you think it’s funny, but there are gay kids in the suburbs who are killing themselves because they don’t know what to do about their sexuality. They kill themselves.

    “This poor girl has spoken about suicide. This is not a joke any more.”

    The Footy Show blokes have always made it clear to Roberts the gay jokes aren’t personal.

    “They’ve always said to me ‘Come on, Robbo: it’s a joke, we don’t mind that you’re gay.’ Well, I don’t mind I’m gay, either.

    “I’m not talking about me. You can’t hurt me. But you know what guys? There are kids out there you do affect.”

    After the Elton Johns sketch ended, Vautin promised more skits to come.

    You might want to check with the boss first, Fatty.

  101. Funny thing, this woman’s liberation movement, the bra burning women of the sixties wanted equality and fought hard to attain it.

    Now we zoom to now where some women wear how many men they rooted as a badge of honour and drink and have the manners of what was called the ‘ocker’!

    When the heat gets too hot they revert to their “I’m a person of the fairer sex” routine, can’t have it both ways!

    I see a fair bit of evidence out there of hard drinking, swearing nasty little ladettes who command no respect who most probably are the progeny of the feminist movement.

    No wonder they are so fucked up!

    I don’t condone rape or trashy sluts that come forward seven years after the fact crying “poor innocent me”…especially when they have form for bragging about their conquests to near strangers!

  102. I don’t condone rape or trashy sluts that come forward seven years after the fact crying “poor innocent me”…especially when they have form for bragging about their conquests to near strangers!

    I imagine there are a lot of people out there expressing the same sentiment.

    It’s still no way to treat a 19 year girl.

    And the fact that the other players won’t come forward, or that Matty Johns won’t name them just demonstrates what a shameful episode this was.

    “Through her in a cab and that’s usually the end of it”

    Nice.

  103. another woman has come forward:

    “After a few kisses, things went drastically wrong,”

    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25493261-1248,00.html

  104. Reb, why doesn’t the girl name them???

    Maybe there is a bit of blackmail going on behind the scenes?

    I wonder which side of the statute of limitations she is sitting on…I smell a gold digger!

  105. That’s right, one goes to the shithouse for a few kisses!

  106. Maybe there is a bit of blackmail going on behind the scenes?

    I don’t think so. The police already investigated the case and decided the players had no case to answer because, once again, the players all said it was consensual.

  107. once again, the players all said it was consensual.

    And isn’t that the crux of the whole matter – whether or not all parties consented at all times?

    Is anyone seriously suggesting that such behaviour between consenting adults, in the privacy of their own home, motel room, or “private” bathroom cubicle, is the business of anyone apart from those directly involved?

    Whether some people think such behaviour is degrading to the female involved, or to females in general, or is immoral, is irrelevant.

    The real problem here is establishing whether a case of initially-consensual sex has become non-consensual to one or more parties at some point during the encounter – whether through a change of mind, or a change of the initial ‘terms’ of the consensual contract (such as additional participants being introduced), or, that one or more of the parties involved was unwilling or unable to withdraw their initially-freely-given consent through fear. embarrassment, or any number of other reasons.

  108. Reb, if that is the case why won’t that woman name the others???

    She named Johns!

  109. Yes I agree Tony. The entire issue is whether the event/s were consensual. Obviously consent with 1 or several does not equate with consent with other males called into the room.

    I am certain that the vast majority of men would agree that just because a woman or girl decides that she wouldn’t mind having sex, that this does not mean that she is agreeing to having sex with your mates as well.

  110. The real problem here is establishing whether a case of initially-consensual sex has become non-consensual to one or more parties at some point during the encounter

    Totally agree.

    Is anyone seriously suggesting that such behaviour between consenting adults, in the privacy of their own home, motel room, or “private” bathroom cubicle, is the business of anyone apart from those directly involved?

    Well yes. If it becomes non-consensual, in your words “unable to withdraw their initially-freely-given consent, then that’s rape.

    And then it becomes a matter for the police.

    The “problem” is that in most cases like this it just becomes one party’s word against another – or several footballers all saying it was consensual while the women says it wasn’t.

    So when you have five or six players (for example) saying it was consensual and one person saying it wasn’t then the police are obviously going to believe the version of the players as they can back each other up as witnesses.

    Only if one or more of the other players “break ranks” and validates the version of events put forward by the alleged victim will there be a case to proceed with.

    Funnily enough, none of the other players are prepared to come fowards or even admit they were involved..

  111. And you know what..

    Even if it was consensual, I think it’s a bloody disgrace that this culture of gang banging young women exists and is considered acceptable conduct in these football circles.

    These are sports people who young kids look up as role models.

    What sort of message does it send to have a culture that exists in a team of role models that thinks it’s okay to treat women like a piece of meat to used and discarded?

    As Maxine McKew says, how would these players feel if this sort of thing happended to their sister or their daughter?

    I’m sure they wouldn’t be rushing to defend their so called “rights” to have group sex if that were the case.

  112. I am certain that the vast majority of men would agree that just because a woman or girl decides that she wouldn’t mind having sex, that this does not mean that she is agreeing to having sex with your mates as well.

    Yes, Min, I’m sure they would.

    And I’m sure most people would concede there might be women who enjoy multiple simultaneous sexual partners, and are ‘comfortable’ with extra participants being introduced.

    And then there all kinds of other cases falling somewhere in between – or outside of – those mentioned.

  113. Reb,

    Just to make my position crystal clear:

    “Is anyone seriously suggesting that such behaviour [the initially-agreed upon mutually-consensual behaviour-ed] between consenting adults, in the privacy of their own home, motel room, or “private” bathroom cubicle, is the business of anyone apart from those directly involved?”

  114. Tony,

    My response remains the same…

    “If it becomes non-consensual, in your words “unable to withdraw their initially-freely-given consent, then that’s rape”

    And then it becomes a matter for the police.

  115. Tony re:

    And I’m sure most people would concede there might be women who enjoy multiple simultaneous sexual partners, and are ‘comfortable’ with extra participants being introduced.

    And this used to be the argument eons ago as to why it was not possible to rape a prostitute. It was also the excuse give as to why forced sex with a gay man could not be considered rape, that is ‘promiscuity’ and ‘asking for it’.

  116. Even if it was consensual, I think it’s a bloody disgrace that this culture of gang banging young women exists and is considered acceptable conduct in these football circles.

    You would not be alone in that assessment, but it is only an opinion.

    Me – in case I haven’t already been clear on it – I refuse to judge others – in this case sexual – behaviour in those terms – as long as all parties are adults and are acting of their own free-will.

  117. “If it becomes non-consensual, in your words “unable to withdraw their initially-freely-given consent, then that’s rape”

    And then it becomes a matter for the police.

    I agree that it might be rape, and then again it still might not be. The factor which “might” make it not-rape is when the other party or parties still believed the behaviour was consensual.

    And I agree with you that that’s then for the police, and possibly the courts, to work out.

  118. 11:52

    others = others

  119. I agree that it might be rape, and then again it still might not be. The factor which “might” make it not-rape is when the other party or parties still believed the behaviour was consensual.

    True. Which I guess is in part why so many “victims” of sexual assault can’t be bothered dragging the experience through the court system, especially in cases where consent may have been initially given and then subsequently withdrawn..

  120. “And I agree with you that that’s then for the police, and possibly the courts, to work out.”

    The police won’t touch it so I suspect a civil case could eventuate if the matter is not settled (bribe) out of court!

    I repeat, why won’t she name the others???

    She destroyed one man’s reputation, why stop there?

  121. “She destroyed one man’s reputation, why stop there?”

    Yeah poor old Matty’s reputation is in tatters.

    Why couldn’t she just’ve kept her gob shut and everything would’ve been fine..

    I just can’t understand why some people simply refuse to keep quiet about such abhorrent things…

  122. By the way, these things don’t happen only in group situations. There would have been literally millions of occasions where one or both halves of a newly-acquainted or well established couple has withdrawn initially-freely-given consent; or wished they had have withdrawn it when they didn’t; or wanted to but couldn’t; or tried to withdraw it but their partner persevered and they relented; or they didn’t relent, and they were raped.

    And of that last group a portion were reported to police; a portion of those led to charges; and a portion of those led to convictions. But only a portion.

  123. I see no one can answer my question, still!

    Why won’t she name the OTHERS????????

    ANSWER: because she most probably is threatening to ruin their reputations if they don’t give her money!

    I don’t give a stuff about Johns.

  124. Reb

    I say this with all sincerity.

    Re: my alleged faint praise just recently. Your comments on this thread validate what I was trying to get at. These are the types of debates that highlight what ‘Blogocrats’ is, or should be really about. Banging away at important issues.

    You excel in this area, so do a number of other people. Reminds me of why I enjoyed coming here in the first place.

  125. Thanks John.

    Appreciate your encouraging words (sincerely too).

    Although you and I disagree on some things, and I accept that my “approach” can be a bit unsavoury at times, I’m sure I speak for all of us is saying that we value your participation.

    I may not always agree with your point of view, but you often may me reconsider my own views, which is a good thing..

    Cheers
    reb.

  126. Agreed Reb, I sincerely enjoy the opinions of the real you mate, even when I don’t always agree. I too can turn it on and get a little ‘out of control’. I know I’ve been forced on so many occasions to reflect and it is a good thing.

  127. Now it turns out that in order for Clare’s story about footballers climbing into the room via the bathroom window to be true she must have ben gang baged by a team of 7 year olds as it would be physically impossible for an adult of any reasonable size to fit through.

    And the Motel owner has branded Clare as a total liar…!

    We will never know the truth !

  128. Not as silly as it may first sound Walrus. They can stand around wanking themselves whilst waiting for their turn without any worries. Can’t rule out hidden cameras though.

  129. Walrus

    I’m wondering whether this alleged episode has been good or bad for business at the motel. I can’t help but think that the owner may have and agenda, and maybe not? Who knows, but one player did say he entered the room after it happened and obviously the boys were gathered around.

    I half suspect that one of those already in the room probably allowed entry to the others. Perhaps it was Johns, hence the reason he allegedly later apologised to her in the car-park.

  130. John,

    There are so many claims and counter claims one does not know where to start. And besides unlike ACA or TT Four Corners never revisits a story to ffer any clarification.

    It does seem as though Four Corners attacked the story from a very narrow angle and has a bit of explaining to do. But they wont.

    Four Corners did a “job” on AFL a couple of years ago from memory. It just seems it was the NRL’s turn.

    Also probably time for another Army bastardisation story soon.

  131. Walrus

    I can’t understand why anyone from the Sharks isn’t disputing what happened and the numbers allegedly involved. The only thing they’re clear on is that they believed it was ‘consensual’

  132. ..it happened, but it was ‘consensual’ seems to be the only reply I’m aware of, from the club.

  133. The word ‘consensual’ would have been the word given to the males involved by their lawyer/s. That is, this was to be their answer. Whether it was or whether it wasn’t only the girl and men know…all else is just speculation.

    One side of the argument is that it must have been consensual because: she, the girl did X, Y and Z.

    The other side states: that they believe the girl because she for example, went to the police 5 hours later.

    However, as above..just speculation and only the parties involved know the truth of the matter.

  134. The Sharks just want the whole thing to go away. If they name players they’ll give the story new life.

    On another note I see the Daily Terror is getting all high and mighty and indignant about the number of brothels operating in Sydney.

    I presume the Editor of the Daily Terror would like its readers to read the article first and then turn to its classified adverts to choose which brothel to head off to after work today.

    Hehehehehehehehehe…………….What hypocrits

  135. Min

    What happened doesn’t seem to have been disputed, now the motel owner claims her allegations are untrue because she claimed they climbed through a window that was impossible to enter due to their size. Yet, the numbers and events haven’t been disputed other than to say: it was ‘consensual’

    This latest revelation only serves to muddy the water even further, it seems.

  136. Walrus

    I noticed that as well. Bit of a joke really.

  137. I hope they won the game!

    Stripper used to ‘fire up’ Prahran footy team
    http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25498914-5005941,00.html
    A FOOTBALL club is under investigation after a stripper was hired to perform for the team minutes before a game.

    In the latest sex drama to engulf the sporting world, Prahran has been ordered to appear before the Victorian Amateur Football Association’s integrity sub-committee tonight to explain the sordid stunt.

  138. They lost the game in fact

  139. They lost – to St Bernards.

  140. Min:

    The word ‘consensual’ would have been the word given to the males involved by their lawyer/s.

    I imagine many hours would’ve been spent teaching them how to pronounce it too….

    Repeat after me.. “Con-Sen-Syu-Al”

    “KONSHENSHULE”

    close enough….

  141. So they lost to St Bernards. I’m guessing they left out the group wank. That could have made all the difference.

  142. Was Kevin Rudd the Prarahan team mascot?

    He would have called his wife immediately after, and claimed not to remember whether he’d seen the stripper.

  143. From the Herald Sun – Mr Brumby said earlier today the incident was an “appalling example to set young people and to set families”.

    I wonder whether he provided a similar commentary to Kevin Rudd.

    Typical political hypocrisy. One rule for the masses, another for the politicians themselves.

  144. “ANSWER: because she most probably is threatening to ruin their reputations if they don’t give her money!”

  145. “ANSWER: because she most probably is threatening to ruin their reputations if they don’t give her money!”

  146. Got a stutter?

  147. “The factor which “might” make it not-rape is when the other party or parties still believed the behaviour was consensual.”

    Riiiiiiiiiiiight. So consent is withdrawn but it isn’t rape because he beleived he had consent? BULLSHIT! Rape is rape and your above BS is exactly the same as the old date rapist excuse – “oh she said no, but she didn’t really mean it. i could tell she wanted it even though she was saying no. Besides we’d already been playing around, and when she said no i already had a hard on there was no way I could stop myself then and how dare she change her mind anyway – the slag”

    Seeing a lot of that male attitude here.

  148. Have you any proof that this person was raped?

    I ask you…why won’t she name the other alleged offenders?

  149. Huh..you are spot on. That’s it as the law stands and has been so for a long time. Should a person refuse anywhere along the petting line, then the other person is expected to stop. And I am certain that 99.9% of men agree also.

    What was it that girls and women used to be called if they refused sex..Dick Teasers..of course this was only a small minority of males.

    Mind you I was never a women’s liberationist except in a few minor things and never an activist but one can recognise when things aren’t quite equal re attitude.

    With apologies, the above just quickly typed out.

  150. “why won’t she name the other alleged offenders?”

    Maybe she doesn’t know their names? I’m sure Matty and the boys didn’t bother with formal introductions before each bloke took his turn.

    But then I didn’t claim the particular individual was raped. I disagreed with a statement that claimed that it was not rape if the other party continued to believe they had consent. I pointed out this was not necessarily true.

    Once a party has withdrawn consent then to continue is rape ie once either party says NO then continuing is RAPE. However, if the party does not explicitly withdraw consent (ie they are silent, they don’t say no, or ask the other to stop) then consent hasn’t been withdrawn

    BNTW scaper, why don’t the blokes name themselves? Surely it was only a bit of consensual sex and therefore they have nothing to be ashamed of or even blackmailed over.

  151. Actually, I was listening to a female professor talking about the subject the other day on the radio, and she was saying that if one party is intoxicated (the female for example) and might have initially agreed to sex with one or two guys, each of the other guys has to be sure in their minds that consent has also been given for them to have sex.

    In other words, one party has to be absolutely clear that consent has been given, and if the other party is under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol, then that party may not even be in a position to give consent if they were otherwise thinking rationally.

    The argument that the players maintain that it was consensual simply wouldn’t standup in a court of law if it weren’t for the fact that they have “closed ranks” and maintained as a group that it was consensual.

  152. Huh,

    You seem to have missed my point:

    “The factor which “might” make it not-rape is when the other party or parties still believed the behaviour was consensual.” because consent hadn’t been verbally withdrawn, even though that party had changed their mind, a possibility touched-on here: “that one or more of the parties involved was unwilling or unable to withdraw their initially-freely-given consent through fear. embarrassment, or any number of other reasons.”

    As a further thought, the point Reb makes about intoxication can be applied equally to all parties. If judgement might be impaired for one party, then judgement might just as easily be impaired for one or more of the other parties.

  153. Huh – “why don’t the blokes name themselves”

    Of course you’re an expert on the use of names, various have been applied. It’s great to have the 3 of you here.

  154. Still no answer to my question here…surely she can remember the names of the alleged others?

  155. Reb

    I agree. It seems that an assumption was perhaps made by some players that given she was a willing participant with two men that they too were entitled to ‘have a go’. It could easily be argued that when the others entered she felt powerless and was afraid if she resisted they may have become violent.

    Who wouldn’t feel intimidated?

  156. Scaper

    If the argument is that she was traumatised by the event then details could quite easily be sketchy. Trauma/fear has a way of distorting perception and effecting memory.

    It’s good enough that she was able to identify one person, and that was Johns.

    Surely statements were presented to police by all those who witnessed the events or were involved. In fact, the media were unable to disclose names for legal reasons.

    I’m yet to hear anyone deny that quite a number of the Shark’s players were involved, therefore, I assume the numbers alleged are generally accurate.

  157. Her motive doesn’t seem to be about money, nor was the program trying to allege criminal conduct, nor does she want her identity disclosed, so it isn’t about her desire to be subject to the public spotlight. She allegedly raised issue with the culture and its dangers.

    Matthew Johns group sex woman in hiding
    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25508462-12377,00.html
    Four Corners said Clare was distressed after the media response towards her after the program.

    “I am being harassed in the most awful ways and what is being reported by jornalists (sic) is horrible and untrue,” the ABC statement reported Clare as saying.

    “They have got people speaking of me that are not my friends or people I have never met.

    “It feels like I am living in a nightmare. All I wanted to do was to make people aware of the culture and stop it happening to other girls.”

    At the time, New Zealand police investigated the woman’s claims that the sex was not consensual, but all the players were cleared of any wrongdoing.

    NZ police have since said they would not re-open the investigation, saying there was no new information.

    Four Corners said the program’s focus was to show the “role of group sex in rugby league culture and the consequences for the woman involved”, not any criminality or consent issues.

    The program said Clare was not paid for the interview and had not boasted about “fallout” from the story.

    “Payment is contrary to ABC Editorial guidelines. Her only requirement was that we protect her identity,” it said.

    “She is in hiding from the media, and has made no comment about the consequences of the story for others.”

  158. John, why should anyone deny anything when they have not been accused?

    She made the statement so it is up to her to accuse THEM!

    Her story holds no weight until she names the alleged rapists, this whole thread is based on speculation, there has been no proof but people are too ready to pass judgement.

    Kangaroo court comes to mind.

  159. Weren’t the accused questioned by NZ police when it first occurred?

    Unfortunately, all we can do is speculate on the legality of the accusations, however, a big question mark hangs over the culture being adopted by so-called sporting role models.

    Greg Bird glassed his girlfriend and then tried to lay blame on his mate. Brett Stewart allegedly groped a teenage girl etc etc

  160. I’d still like to know why Johns allegedly approached Clare after the event, in the carpark, to allegedly offer her an apology, perhaps he’d realised it all went too far.

    The problem doesn’t just plague the NRL, I also sure the AFL have their fair share of problems as do other organisations – I know it wasn’t unheard of in the military.

    Non-consensual group sex ‘not just league problem’
    http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25496629-421,00.html
    GROUP sex scandals are not isolated to rugby league, a rape crisis centre manager says.

    Another woman has come forward with sexual assault allegations against three league players, The Daily Telegraph reports. The woman described to the newspaper how in 2008 three Brisbane Bronco footballers had sex with her in a cubicle against her will.

    Her story follows Channel Nine’s decision to sack Matthew Johns for a 2002 group sex incident with a 19-year-old woman in New Zealand.

    NSW Rape Crisis Centre Manager Karen Willis, who advises the NRL on sexual assault issues, says the problem of group sex happens across the board. She said the NRL has already taken steps to address the behaviour of some footballers towards women.

    “It’s not just footballers…generally a lot of blokes just don’t get it,” she told Channel Ten.

    “The NRL…(has)… been the first male-dominated organisation in this country to put up their hand and say we have a problem and we need to do something about it. That work needs to continue.”

    Ms Willis also urged the men who took part in the New Zealand sexual assault with Matthew Johns to come forward and publicly name themselves.

    “If they’re in any way sorry for what they’ve done or understand the impacts of their behaviour, the very first thing they need to do is admit that.”

  161. John Mcphilbin, on May 19th, 2009 at 8:43 pm Said:

    Indeed it does. People who are ‘good’ at sport are like ‘actors’ who are good at acting – to be acknowledged for their achievements in their fields but certainly not to be generalised ‘role models’. Parents take note.

    Many actors and footballers have the sexual morality of alley cats simply because they ‘can’. Not something to be ‘accepted’ surely?

    Then there is:

    The problem doesn’t just plague

    Indeed! But if one departs from the social ‘mores’, particularly when it involves a 32 year old male and a 19 year old female, then don’t expect a free ride.

    Oh, I know Clare hasn’t named anyone but Johns – as though it matters.

  162. Wow, it’s the lack of motive that’s puzzled me. Now, it seems her motive is an innocent at ‘blowing the whistle’ so others don’t find themselves in a similar position.

    ‘Clare’ crushed by league sex scandal backlash
    http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25510420-5001021,00.html
    Four Corners said it issued the statement to “set the record straight” on how the story developed, including Clare’s involvement.

    The statement said Clare was not paid for the interview, only asking that her identity be protected. She had previously refused all offers of money for interviews.

    “The intervening years were marked by post-traumatic stress disorder and its debilitating symptoms,” the statement read.

    “Through our research we found Clare and asked her to take part in a program looking at off-field incidents in the NRL, attitudes to women in the culture of the game and the possibility for change.

    “On that basis and knowing there were other women also speaking out, she agreed.”

  163. Reb and Joni

    Perhaps a new thread on this statement and your opinions?

    Statement from ABC TV’s Four Corners
    http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,25509170-5001021,00.html

    May 20, 2009 12:00am

    THE following is a statement from the ABC’s Four Corners program about their story on the NRL group sex scandal.

    FOUR CORNERS “CODE OF SILENCE”

    Due to the high level of interest in this program, we would like to answer a number of questions that have arisen in response to the story.

    Four Corners cannot control what is said in the outer reaches of the internet. We can correct some of the rumours and untruths being printed or broadcast in the mainstream media. In doing so we would also like to set the record straight on how the story came into being.

  164. Either this former team-mate had a personal axe to grind over something unrelated, or, he was shocked and disgusted by what happened.

    Former teammate was source of group sex story
    http://www.smh.com.au/news/lhqnews/exteammate-a-sexstory-source/2009/05/19/1242498752984.html
    THE ABC television program Four Corners revealed last night that a former Cronulla teammate was the source of a story about a group-sex incident involving players in 2002.

    The program took the extraordinary step of releasing a statement about its source, which said: “Two months ago, after we had begun researching a story on rugby league, one of the members of the Cronulla Sharks tour to New Zealand told Four Corners about the events in Christchurch.”

    The statement also included a plea to be left in peace from the woman who gave the program a graphic account of her encounter with the Sharks players.

  165. John, I love ya to bits, but your powers of deduction speculation are now both precisely mirroring the story-framers agenda and neglecting that agenda’s import…

    Notice. Here is John saying…

    Wow, it’s the lack of motive that’s puzzled me. Now, it seems her motive is…

    Here is John’s evidence…

    Through our research we found Clare and asked her to take part in a program looking at off-field incidents in the NRL, attitudes to women in the culture of the game and the possibility for change.

    “On that basis and knowing there were other women also speaking out, she agreed.”

    Here is John saying…

    Either this former team-mate had a personal axe to grind over something unrelated, or, he was shocked and disgusted by what happened.

    Here is the evidence…

    Through our research we found Clare and asked her to take part in a program looking at off-field incidents in the NRL, attitudes to women in the culture of the game and the possibility for change.

    The program took the extraordinary step of releasing a statement about its source, which said: “Two months ago, after we had begun researching a story on rugby league, one of the members of the Cronulla Sharks tour to New Zealand told Four Corners about the events in Christchurch.”

    And to highlight another frame of reference…

    Four Corners cannot control what is said in the outer reaches of the internet.

    And yet another frame of reference…

    The statement also included a plea to be left in peace from the woman who gave the program a graphic account of her encounter with the Sharks players.

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