Fox News – Fair and Balanced?

I picked up this story from Dailykos:

This is what Fox News said:

ALISYN CAMEROTA (Fox anchor): The White House is defending its nominee to be State Department Legal Adviser. Now, some of the criticism of this nominee, Harold Koh, is based on remarks that he reportedly made saying that Islamic Sharia law should apply in U.S. courts, even though those laws are used in some countries to justify stripping women of basic rights and even worse, frankly.

Here is what is the truth.

No, this isn’t an April Fool’s joke: Fox is seriously accusing the Obama administration of seeking to impose Islamic Sharia law in the United States.

Needless to say, the accusation totally false and just another example of the hate-filled insanity and paranoia of Foxaganda, America’s most-watched cable news network.

The story is based on an email that said that one of Obama’s State Dept appointees, Haraol Koh, supported the implementation of Sharia Law into the US. And Fox News, of course, does say that they were unable to reach the author of the email to verify it’s contents.  As the article says:

There’s no question about Fox’s agenda here: they are trying to fan the flames of hysterical anger against the Obama administration for their own partisan purposes.

Fair and Balanced, eh?

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128 Responses

  1. This is what happens when you allow such concentration of media ownership by large wealthy barons.

    Australia used to have independent channels in all capital cities together with independent regional stations right accross australia.

    We now have the Mega channels 7, 9 and 10 and their programmes being streamed to all regional stations who are now affiliated with one of the large channels.

    As a result our news is manipulated to suit three mega corporations who only report what they want to and only in the manner that suits their own agenda.

    Thats not news, that is exactly the same as the propoganda you receive when working for a major corporation. Only that which is beneficial to the profits of the organisation will be reported, and it will be reported in a way to manipulate the publics perception of a story to ensure we achieve the right outcome irrespective if we only promote one side of the story.

    It is opinion reporting, not news.

  2. Joni,

    It really is sad to see that the real “Blogocracy” is nothing but a memory. When this blog was originally put together I thought you guys did a pretty good job towing the center line to some extent. Yes, you have always leaned left but so did Blogocracy. However, Tim was always able to tow the line of his political leanings in such a way you never felt unwelcome. You guys truly have manifested into another echo chamber………Quoting the “Daily Kos” or “echoing” their tripe is truly revealing……….

    http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1725323_1725329_1725345,00.html

    Even CNN has enough sanity to pronounce them for what they are but here; they are cited as significant, pathetic indeed…………..Hilarious to mention Murdoch as he also promoted the REAL “Blogocracy”…..

  3. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA, on April 2nd, 2009 at 9:33 am Said:

    Joni,

    It really is sad to see that the real “Blogocracy” is nothing but a memory. When this blog was originally put together I thought you guys did a pretty good job towing the center line to some extent. Yes, you have always leaned left but so did Blogocracy. However, Tim was always able to tow the line of his political leanings in such a way you never felt unwelcome. You guys truly have manifested into another echo chamber

    I’ve been trying to put my finger on what’s missing and I sincerely have to agree with Sparta on this one. Please take a step back, Tim, I’m sure, would offer similar advice. No offense intended.

  4. Sparta:

    “When this blog was originally put together I thought you guys did a pretty good job towing the center line to some extent.”

    Thanks Sparta. What would you give us in terms of marks out of ten?

    I’m leaning towards 4 – “could try harder”.

    But that’s just me.

    Meanwhile over at the G20 Protesting thread, I took a hammering simply because I asked “what’s the point of protesting?”

    So I don’t think we have become another “echo chamber” as you put it.

    But by all means, you are entitled to your opinion, and as always are welcome to express it here…

  5. John,

    Why? Is the story wrong?

  6. Didn’t read the story, gave up watching FOX News years ago – fair and balanced, my arse. I just came across Sparta’s comment and the light went on in reference to the tone that seems to have developed on Blogocrats especially when compared to Blogocracy. I think the feedback he offers is useful. With no offense to anyone attached.

  7. Sorry John but I have taken offence. Whether dailykos is balance or not is not the point. The point is that Fox News ran a story that is blatantly false and I am supposed to ignore it because a left-wing site posted the details? And then I am accused of not being a centre-ist as the Blogocrats, which was a commerical site? Have a look at RTS and tell me that it does not have the same type of stories that we run here.

    Well, slap me with a feather and call me Alice.

  8. Sparta and John

    The major difference between blogocrats and most of the sites on the major news conglomerates is that Blogocrats allows EVERYONE to argue their case for or against.

    Try telling Akerman or Bolt they are manifesting into an echo chamber and see if it is posted.

    How about celebrating tha fact your opinions are posted uncensored no matter how stringently you disagree in comparison to the sites monitored and censored for the coprorations agenda.

    John,
    Have the boys ever rejected a post of yours ?

    Sparta,
    How about you throw some posts at the boys regarding your opinion of items of interest. I am sure they would gladly post them for you.

  9. Personally, I think what is missing is an agenda.

    Not from anyone here at blogocrats, but from the conservatists.

    They are in dissarray, and are unable to mount a valid campaign to support their case that they were right in their belief of the unrestrained market. Evidence is not with them.

    Bagging them has become all too easy.

    Perhaps when there is something in their case to argue, this might look like a more reasoned blog.

    Until then……..

    Also, I wonder if Sparta is aware that he is able to post topics if he so wishes.

    Something I wish more for the conservative side would do.

  10. …I’d wondered where Sparta had gone to and why? I can understand now why he’s been absent. To me that’s good feedback that needs to be welcomed openly and not shut down. This is where I think Tim was more open and more interested in diverse opinions and when he did disagree he did it diplomatically. I think that’s the direction that is sorely missing.

    And if that mean censuring hostile and derogatory remarks that don’t add to the debate and only serve to divert attention, then so be it. Play the ball, not the person.

  11. I just came across Sparta’s comment and the light went on in reference to the tone that seems to have developed on Blogocrats especially when compared to Blogocracy

    I get the feeling (rightly or wrongly) that both yourself and Sparta somehow feel that Blogocrats should be the same as Blogocracy?

    Clearly this isn’t the case. And it would be impossible for me and joni to try to achieve this.

    It’s not something we thought we could or should try to do.

    I think it’s a bit unfair to draw the comparison..

    But you know, whatever…

  12. Shane

    John,
    Have the boys ever rejected a post of yours ?

    I was quickly shut down as an author. By that stage I was actually glad.

  13. John

    And still neither of you want to comment on the actual story.

  14. And John – you were “shut down” as an author because you were politely and frequently requested to not post large cut-paste articles about the same thing.

  15. Hey guys

    Just expressing our opinions. I’d like to see a few threads by Sparta and Tom. It would be interesting.

  16. “Sorry John but I have taken offence.”

    Kind of the point Joni……Besides, if we were to sight every “blatant” lie made in the media I think you would find that the lone news channel with “traditional” leanings (A.K.A Fox News) is a bit outnumbered…..CBS, MSNBC, NBC, CNN, PBS and that is just for starters….Your outrage would have credence but I have yet to see you post such a story about any other media outlet……Yes, you should do such a thing if you’re going to try and pass yourself off as a some sort of “arbiter” of journalistic integrity. Anyhow, don’t start ostracizing John for daring to agree with the likes of me, he is one of your only rational posters!

  17. My style Joni

    It didn’t stop many people reading and commenting. First hint of dissatisfaction at my passionate response to the GFC etc by a few was weighed heavily in favour of the ‘shut down’ and not my ‘cut and pastes’ references (which were mainly pasted for educational and debate purposes)

    Like I said Joni, try to step back for a moment

  18. “Just expressing our opinions”

    Yes, of course, as you are welcome to do here….

    “I’d like to see a few threads by Sparta and Tom.”

    Yep, so would I, anyone can submit topics for discussion and both Tom and Sparta would indeed be welcome to post something.

  19. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA

    Or Sparta, you could simply post a link to one or several of these articles, and use that in your defense.

    I am fairly sure that ALL papers lean one way or another.

    It is an unfortunate fact in the way that either papers have evolved, or, more probably, the way we as readers have evolved.

    The papers simply follow the revenue.

  20. John

    I too would like to see posts from Sparta and Tom and I have no doubt reb and joni would post them without question.

    I think anyone who criticises the content that is posted on Blogocrats should stand up and post some articles. I do not agree with everything on Blogocrats, nor do I agree with everyone on here.

    Yet I do not criticise those who have posted articles. I post my comments and look forward to a dabte from others while both sides put their case.

    John. I never once criticsed you posting an article. I have agreed and disagreed eyt I never critised your postings no matter how long they were. You will also note I added comments on virtually all of your postings. You and I look at the economy, others on here don’t, but thats diversty.

    I rejoice in the fact I have a blog site where my views are printed freely and without censor and can be on any topic as we see so many times when the conversation digresses, but that is one of the joys of this site. Why can’t Sparta see that. He may not like what is printed but his comments will be posted without censorship.

  21. Sparta

    Anyhow, don’t start ostracizing John for daring to agree with the likes of me, he is one of your only rational posters!

    I don’t know how many times we’ve disagree Sparta, but I never went away thinking you’d made things personal which is why I’ve always respected, even though disagreeing on many occasions, with your opinion.

    I think some people are cautious of being more candid when they think it’s only going to elicit personal attacks of sorts.

  22. Actuall y John, and, again, just my view, but my problem with your posts were that they generally took up a large percentage of the ‘home’ page, and, mostly, with simple cut an pastes, where often a link to the source would have done.

    Or, at the least, the little ‘more>>’ link off the home page. Freeing up the home page for the wider range of topics

    Most of your articles were quite good, and did expose me to much more background information about the crisis.

  23. “I’d like to see a few threads by Sparta and Tom.”

    You want to see a thread on botox???

    Better to have one on stuffed childrens toys.

  24. joni, on April 2nd, 2009 at 9:51 am Said

    because a left-wing site posted the details?

    No! No! It’s not a left-wing site. It’s a ‘liberal site’. LOl.

    As to the content of the post, it reinforces the irony of the ‘fair and balanced’ moniker. Like Honest John Howard.

    As for ‘grades’, I give you AA. Not quite AAA but then again I have never ever given a AAA.

    text

  25. Shane

    You’re always a gentleman, that’s why Shane. I enjoy your feedback whether I agree of not.

  26. Wow – who-a-thunk-it – we post on here articles that we want to post because we are a blog.

    Reminder to all, reb and I get no money to run this. We are not being paid to be balanced. We post threads because the confrom to our world view – and we want discussion on those issues.

  27. Actually..

    Tom did post a topic a while back on Unions (I know, it took me surprise too), and like all the other guest posts we receive it was published in its entirety and unedited.

    Like we keep saying…

    Anyone is welcome to post a topic for discussion, and everyone is welcome to express their opinions..

  28. And you and reb have done a wonderful job. All I ask if for the floor to be more open and inclusive of diverse opinions. Fair and balanced. Sparta, for example posts and people disagree, they can express their opinions in a manner that is more tolerant and less hostile.

    Howard had the habit of trying to shut down dissenters as did the Bush government. Blogocracts need to rise above petty politicking.

  29. Re Tom’s post on Unions. Great, lets open the floor.

  30. BTW,

    As a commenter at Blogocracy I was never renowned for my diplomacy and I ain’t about to start now..

  31. And we are not trying to shut down any debate.

    I am just saying that I took offence to the insunuation that we are making people feel unwelcome on here.

    Now – can we discuss the actual story that Fox News ran?

  32. All I ask if for the floor to be more open and inclusive of diverse opinions..

    It always has been John….

    😉

  33. Tom R,

    “The papers simply follow the revenue.”

    I agree entirely and why I make it a point to get my news from a variety of sources. Oddly it is CNN affiliated? Why else would a guy with “traditional” leanings even visit a blog such as this, for my health?

    “Or Sparta, you could simply post a link to one or several of these articles, and use that in your defense.”

    What defense do you think I am putting forth Tom? I don’t disagree that Fox News leans right or they cover stories that feed a particular mindset? The reason I do visit Fox on occasion is that they repeatedly admit to leaning that way. The others make no attempt as a whole, dishonest to the bone in my opinion. Some of us out here really are just trying to get the “real story”.

  34. Reb

    How do you feel when someone uses sarcasm as a way of putting you and your opinion down? don’t tell me it makes you feel good.

    There’s no problem with addressing an opinion with something like ‘..I think that’s a load of fucking twadle because… But too often debates become hijacked by name calling and other put-downs. Then, others often feel inclined to join in.

    Someone has to facilitate a balance. don’t you think?

    Just something to think about…also, if I didn’t care and respect many people who come to Blogocrats, as well as the effort yourself and Joni have put in, I wouldn’t bother commenting.

  35. “Someone has to facilitate a balance. don’t you think?”

    Agreed. But it’s never something that I’ve professed to be good at.

  36. I took a hammering simply because I asked “what’s the point of protesting?”

    Call that a hammering sissy boy? 🙂

    Actually, I thought that was a good thread and topic.

  37. John,

    “I don’t know how many times we’ve disagree Sparta….”

    Lost count myself John but you have always been agreeably disagreeable…….

    “I never went away thinking you’d made things personal which is why I’ve always respected, even though disagreeing on many occasions, with your opinion.”

    Couldn’t agree more….Only way I can explain the fact I found myself looking over the economic opinions of Soros!

  38. John – “How do you feel when someone uses sarcasm as a way of putting you and your opinion down?”

    I’ll own up. This is one of my preferred manners of posting, and by now I’d expect everyone to either have given up with me, or push back on my comments as hard as they wish.

    I have no problem with sarcasm, arrogant dismissal, facetiousness… I think we should draw the line at misrepresentation.

  39. kittylitter, on April 2nd, 2009 at 10:44 am Said:

    I took a hammering simply because I asked “what’s the point of protesting?”

    Call that a hammering sissy boy? 🙂

    Actually, I thought that was a good thread and topic.

    There’s also a lot to be said about good natured ribbing. Great example by Kittylitter. It’s lighthearted and it shows.

    Reb

    I couldn’t stop laughing about the ‘The G20; Protesting for Protest’s Sake’ John McPhilbin makes a cameo appearance at the G20

    Not much has to change to really keep things moving in a positive direction, simply a commitment to keeping things relatively civil and on topic.

  40. “I have no problem with sarcasm, arrogant dismissal, facetiousness… ”

    Me neither. I also like outright personal abuse and derision, but apparantly it gets others offside, so I try to restrain myself. Sometimes successfully. Sometimes not.

  41. Sparta

    Glad you found yourself reading Soros, a real eye opener! Frankly, I used to think of him as a predator until I started reading up on him and his view of markets and the global market system in general.

  42. On topic (yes massa joni 😉 From Crikey at: http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20090401-Chinese-linked-attempt-to-dominate-Australias-media.html

    According to a joint briefing prepared by both ASIO and ASIS, the campaign centres on an attempt by Chinese-linked interests to control a major segment of the Australian media market by owning newspapers in most capital cities, as well as a national masthead that purports to “shape the agenda”.

    And yes Bernard Keane wrote this on the 1st April…

    Actually not so far fetch given that Fox ‘news’ report was given serious consideration. It’s all about Obama’s father being a Muslim isn’t it. And Penny Wong is Chinese tooo…and so is Rudd’s son in law. Rudd speaks Mandarin and his son in law is a Cantonese speaker, obviously organised so as to corner the Chinese market.

  43. Reb – “I also like outright personal abuse and derision”

    Reb, I agree entirely, though with the qualification that we only discriminate on the basis of political persuasion and intelligence.

  44. reb, on April 2nd, 2009 at 10:59 am Said:

    “I have no problem with sarcasm, arrogant dismissal, facetiousness… ”

    Me neither. I also like outright personal abuse and derision, but apparantly it gets others offside, so I try to restrain myself. Sometimes successfully. Sometimes not.

    I think it shuts the door for many people who would otherwise like to join in. Good natured ribbing and passionate debates are great, but there’s a line.

    I have a friend she’s got all types of torture equipment to satisfy your needs guys (wink). She can spank you and abuse you and apparently make you feel good at the same time. Not my cup of tea, took ages for the scars to heal so I’ve never been back (Lol).

  45. min

    And, OMD, my boyf is of Chinese decent and is known to have leftist tendencies!!! Oh the shame.

    And so, yes, you have uncovered the fact that this blog is all a Chinese undercover attempt to infiltrate Australia.

    😉

  46. And so, yes, you have uncovered the fact that this blog is all a Chinese undercover attempt to infiltrate Australia.

    😉

    I knew it!

  47. Yes min, instead of the usual xenophobic hysteria being whipped up by the tories, we’ve now got sinophobia.

    At least they are leaving the muslims alone and Aboriginals are so far down on the interest scale that they don’t even rate as a target any more.

  48. And it’s seeds were sown in Miller – where the local member was (I think) Mr Whitlam.

    See – it’s all related.

    Now – where are those Illuminati?

  49. Damn, now I’m paranoid Joni. (wink) Are they watching? And I thought the dope next door was just a dope dealer.

  50. “And, OMD, my boyf is of Chinese decent and is known to have leftist tendencies!!! Oh the shame.”

    You Commie bastard! Bring back the LIST……….Oh wait a minute, that is reserved for the Conservative these days…Boy, the times have changed…….

  51. I’ve had my suspicions for a while now joni. That there are subversive elements on this blog, examples include vegetarians and vegans (scarey just by themselves), some who cry tears when their animals are unwell, Indian cooking, some who care passionately about human rights, some who care passionately for the environment and some who worry themselves silly about the economy and the direction that this country is heading. Just a ye olde left winger blog where the submitters and authors have not much to say……

  52. sparta

    Thanks for the laugh… and we DO appreciate other POV’s here.

  53. “Just a ye olde left winger blog where the submitters and authors have not much to say……”

    Interesting you think the issues you mention are synonymous with the “left”. I do remember the “left” also use to be open to diverse opinions, preached tolerance etc….again, how the times have changed…….I guess I must be a “Lefty” then?

  54. Now Sparta, did I say this? No of course I didn’t. You honestly don’t believe that I think that people who are vegos, who love their pets and who enjoy Indian cookery are all left wingers?

    However there has been suggestions that the blog is too left wing, hence the reason that we need persons such as yourself in order to achieve a balance. N’est-ce pas?

  55. Regarding conspiracy with China. I have been hearing on the grape vine ( it is a grape vine not gospel) that with the governments guarantee the Big 4 banks ahve been sourcing hundreds of billions of dollars off shore at cheap rates while they have continued to tighten their rules.

    Apparently they are hoarding the money because the government is expecting China to open up its banking system to our major banks as a trade off for allowing China to buy interest in our mining companies.

    This will allow our major Banks to operate independently in China rather than in conjunction with a Chinese bank as a shareholder. Apparently ANZ already has the application submitted.

    Very interesting indeed.

  56. I like to think that I’m fair and balanced.

    As long as I get my own way in the end.

  57. oh, that is juicy goss Shane…

  58. reb

    LOL, will always give blogocrats the juicy goss when I hear it. But also the facts it the goss turns out to be truth or lies.

  59. For what it’s worth.

    I’m glad you’re commenting Sparta…

  60. Yeah, I’m glad everyone is here too.

    But we need more from the Lord Mayor of Crapperville.

  61. Fox News is leagues away from being fair or balanced.
    The DailyKos fits neatly into a similar category on the other side of the imaginary line in the sand.

    This is all a part of the unnatural order of opinion & is largely unsurprising.

    Can anyone name a source that is “never” biased in either direction?
    I think that that would be difficult.

    You’ve gotta try & read between the lines of each &, recognising the inherent bias, try & deduce the fact from the inferences.

  62. I can’t go near that incendiary Tom, lest my inner gutless dog be set loose.

  63. Forget all about fair and balanced and letting everyone have a say. The amount of time the authors and a lot of others clearly spend on this site indicates that you have no life and are probably wasting time at work as well (if you work). Step back and have a look at that !

  64. Good one davo. And so what are YOU doing at 12.30pm. Clearly you have nothing better happening in your life.

  65. Yes Toiletboss, it’s all very well to be worried about your inner gutless dog, but consider me.

    When the Lord Mayor disclosed to the world that my surgically enhanced mistress was a fact, rather than a figment, I was in deep trouble.

  66. Tom. You mean that it wasn’t true??? Who could have guessed. Huggy squishes. Actually, we’ve had some excellent debates haven’t we. And you made me do my homework to check that what was just memory was indeed factual. Thank you.

  67. …says davo, while displaying some knowledge of the site that he wastes no time reading. You really taught ’em a lesson there davo.

  68. reb, on April 2nd, 2009 at 12:02 pm Said:

    I like to think that I’m fair and balanced.

    As long as I get my own way in the end.

    Actually Reb, just thinking the same thing myself – about myself, of course. And that’s natural and healthy to a degree. I’ve got a thick skin most of the time, however, ends don’t always justify the means (and I’m not pointing the finger here). The aim, I’d imagine is to keep dialogue flowing and not allowing it to deteriorate into a slanging match.

    As you said recently about the G20 ‘ is anarchy the answer’ , certainly not. Nor should a blog become anything goes simply because it detracts from the purpose of real debate.

  69. “Can anyone name a source that is “never” biased in either direction?
    I think that that would be difficult.”

    Indeed….

    “You’ve gotta try & read between the lines of each &, recognising the inherent bias, try & deduce the fact from the inferences.”

    I agree entirely. It is human nature to gravitate towards sources that espouse are own views of the world (nice and cozy) but honestly, real discussion and debate is sorely needed…..

  70. davo, on April 2nd, 2009 at 12:30 pm Said:

    Forget all about fair and balanced and letting everyone have a say. The amount of time the authors and a lot of others clearly spend on this site indicates that you have no life and are probably wasting time at work as well (if you work). Step back and have a look at that !

    Get back to work davo! Good point though. I’ll readily admit that coming here has been a diversion of sorts. However, after 5 years floundering (no fault of my own of course) a productive relationship is now developing between me and the insurer I’ve had to deal with.

    Turns out I’ve been right to stand my ground all along.

    Whistleblower Beats Bullies
    http://workers.labor.net.au/251/news84_bullies.html

  71. Good on ya John………

  72. Sparta of Phoenix, AZ USA, on April 2nd, 2009 at 12:47 pm Said:

    “Can anyone name a source that is “never” biased in either direction?
    I think that that would be difficult.”

    Indeed….

    “You’ve gotta try & read between the lines of each &, recognising the inherent bias, try & deduce the fact from the inferences.”

    I agree entirely. It is human nature to gravitate towards sources that espouse are own views of the world (nice and cozy) but honestly, real discussion and debate is sorely needed…..

    Brilliant! Well said Sparta. It takes real courage and tenacity to debate openly without succumbing to the urge to shut others down, simply because we don’t like what they’re saying.

  73. Under the heading John of ‘doing one’s best’..didn’t joni say, getting back on topic would be good. It’s our responsibility to stay on track or to take it over to the open thread such as Midweek. If we cannot be self disciplined, then we cannot complain should a thread go off topic.

  74. John

    And where did we ever shut someone down over what they were saying? You were removed for “how” you were saying it as it presented problems for people using the blog – and we requested that you change the style to use links and a small quote from the articles. Something that was also requested at the other place.

  75. Fox is right leaning. Little doubt about that. And any dishonesty of the kind alleged ought to be dealt with properly, and this extends to magazines etc. I can’t get over just how much false material is allowed to be published. The Pauline Hanson thing was but the tip of the iceberg. That said, reading the Daily Kos complain about political bias is kind of like listening to bikie gangs complain about violence and the proliferation of drugs. I think the biggest problem of media bias exists in “our” ABC. Never mind the board, it’s the output that matters and the ABC is so left wing that they are deceitful. Kerry O’Brien, Jon Faine, right throughout. Opinion is so often presented as fact. And the fact that they have a couple of conservative commentators buried on an early Sunday morning show changes nothing. And that’s before you move on to other outlets like JJJ. “In news today that fascist bastard John Howard has said………” Global Warming denier ……….., obviously in the pay of Big Oil, has questioned the claims of Australian of the Year Tim Flannery that the seas will rise by 5 metres in the next decade……can you believe it? Must be a fascist.”

  76. Thanks Sparta, I’m starting to get a little of my old spark back now. It’s been a very hard road to travel but I’m finally getting somewhere. You’ve got to trust in yourself and your own judgment and stand up for what you believe in.

    I suppose that’s why I’m all for giving people a fair go and encouraging people to be more open and candid. I’d been shut down long ago and even had my career and health derailed because of it.

    There’s an old saying I’ve become very fond of over the years:

    “We all fight for a position in life, we all want to be seen and heard”

  77. James

    At each and every investigation of the ABC there has been found no case to answer for bias. This was also during the previous governments reign.

    It seems to me that people who accuse the CBA of bias either left or right only see programmes they choose.

    I have seen programmes on the ABC support and criticise the left and their policies. I have also seen programmes on the ABC support and criticise the right and their policies.

    Watch the ABC for a whole day and list how many times over the 168 hours in the week of transmission the ABC criticises either side of politics. Many of us only watch want we want and then accuse the ABC of bias simply on 1 or 2 programmes watched during the week.

    No doubt you would like the ABC to operate the same as 7 , 9 and 10 where the conglomerate decides what is sceened to the couch absorbing public in the interests of making money. Nothing more and nothing less.

  78. Shane, it’s in intonations, styles of questions, etc. Kerry O’Brien is not called Red Kez for no reason. It’s there all right.

  79. James,

    I would agree that the 7.30 report does seem to be a little ‘sympathetic’ to the left. However sometimes I rekon it comes down to what sort of mood Kerry’s in, that decides whether he feels like going for the jugular or not. He likes to make a fool out of Malcolm Turnbull, but I reckon that’s because he’s such an easy target, in comparison to say Julia Gillard who can remain calm and composed regardless iof what’s thrown at her.

    Insiders, in sharp contrast, is like a pack of rabid right wing rotweilers. So much so that they’ve dispensed with any attempts to even ‘appear’ to be balanced.

  80. James

    I could accuse any reporter of innotations and styles of questions. The fact is there has never been a case to answer for.

    We all accuse others of bias simply because we may not agree with the style of reporting or the questions being asked.

    The proof is in facts and the fact is no case has ever been proven even when the Howard government and its ministers made accusations of bias.

    And you would no doubt be aware that the ABC faces far more scrutiny both under leglislation and political interference in its actions than those of the private sector broadcasters. To have no case to answer after numerous investigations and allegations IMO shows that our perceived insinuations of bias are untrue and have no basis.

  81. Who can forget this priceless little exchange between Julia Gillard and Barrie Cassidy on Insiders during the lead up to the last election:

    BARRIE CASSIDY: Well as I said earlier, Kevin Rudd was invited onto the program. During the campaign we have interviewed the Prime Minister and the Treasurer, and up until Wednesday, we were led to believe that Kevin Rudd would be joining us this morning. But instead, his Deputy is appearing. Good morning.

    JULIA GILLARD: Good morning, Barrie.

    BARRIE CASSIDY: You’re very welcome. Do you think as Kevin Rudd gains more experience, he will come on to programs like this?

    JULIA GILLARD: Barrie, Kevin has routinely been on the Insiders, I’ve frequently seen him sitting in this chair opposite you. He’s obviously done a large number of…

    BARRIE CASSIDY: Once. Once in 12 months.

    JULIA GILLARD: He’s done a large number of interviews on the ABC, he’s been on The 7.30 Report twice, on Lateline. Fronting up to Chris Uhlmann on AM in the morning. You know as well as I do if leaders took all the media commitments they were asked to do that the election campaign would go six years, not six weeks. But I’m very happy Barrie, to answer any question you’ve got.

    BARRIE CASSIDY: We did give him six options, there were six Sundays.

    JULIA GILLARD: Kevin has to make choices, obviously he gets asked to do a lot of media interviews. He does have to make choices. There’s only so many things you can do and he does a lot of them. I’m very happy to answer any questions you’ve got on behalf of the Federal Parliamentary Labor party.

    BARRIE CASSIDY: He is doing Rove tonight, of course, so you must be chuffed he asked you to do the politics while he does vaudeville.

    JULIA GILLARD: (laughs) I’m here to answer your questions. So there’s two ways this interview can go, you can act like a jilted lover and we can do that for several minutes, or you can ask me any political questions you’ve got and we can start them. Rove is a good way of engaging with voters who – with the greatest respect Barrie – don’t get up on this time on a Sunday morning and watch the political shows.

  82. Oooo – get her! Lovely response by Julia.

  83. 😀 Yes, Julia’s experience in the courtroom serves her well when confronted with sensationalists. Just like a trial lawyer, she points out where the opposition (i.e. interviewer) is being petty / sensationalist and drives towards the facts, whilst also making sure her sensationalist arguments are talked about.

    Insiders needs some fresh blood and, by that, I mean ABC needs to get rid of Barry Cassidy. It’s not that his questions are right/left leaning (they’re not) but that he has no respect (and demands none) from guests & commentators on his show. Therefore, polite commentators let him guide the debate / discussion (and this, ironically enough, includes Piers) whereas rude / arrogant commentators and guests run roughshod over anything contrary to their opinion by acting like children (this, not suprisingly, includes Bolt).

  84. On the actual subject of FOX News – the issue most have with the show / channel is that it claims outright that it is “Fair & Balanced”. Alot of their “opinion news” shows lean on this (implicitly &/or by explicitly mentioning the “fact” of FOX News’ balance), and this

    Everyone here agrees that it’s right-wing (even the right-wingers), but that is not the real problem. It’s the fact they claim they are not (in every advertisement talking about the channel) and others, less politically informed than ourselves (which is alot of people), take them at their word (after all, they are a “news channel”, why would they lie?).

    I have lost count of the times I have talked to Republican supporters in the states (a good number of friends live in the USA) and they quote FOX News. If any mention is made of their right-wing leaning though – the old “Fair & Balanced” slogan comes out, often with the comment FOX News is the only fair & balanced network!

  85. James, in fact, the last few investigations into the alleged left bias at the ABC found that it is right-leaning despite all the bullsh*t emanating from Richard Alston’s office.

    What the Rodent government refused to acknowledge was that the public broadcaster was not their propaganda agent.

    Thank god the Rodent appointees to the board are now being weeded out.

  86. Fox news, i dont watch it.
    ———
    John, bloody good onya.
    I hope it gets better from here for you.

  87. “And still neither of you want to comment on the actual story.”

    Typical claptrap from Fox News. Distortions. Creating false impressions. Feeding the fears of the xenophobic and misguided.

    Mike Kelly might aptly refer to it as “scaremongering, smear and innuendo”.

    That’s why I stopped watching Fox News.

    As for the ABC & any other supposed Left-Wing or Right-Wing biased media…

    when I see more positive & diverse representations of vegans/vegetarians…and homosexual/lesbians (issues, lifestyle, rights)…and the same goes for G20 protestors (rather than HYPED isolated incidents)…less criticisms and more interest in the imaginative styles & symbolism of protestor’s outfits…more discussions on the complexities surrounding the rights & non-rights of other species…then I might begin to entertain the idea that a news outlet &/or topic-related show/blog is demonstrating some kind of BALANCE.

    This blog is at least attempting to do so…growing, widening everyday.

    No retreat from telling it as it is (from the writer’s POV…and the commentors)…more fun…more enLIGHTenment…w/ the odd biff session.

    Alphabear in peacekeeping mode:


    😉

    Viva la stuffed toy!
    N’

  88. Dear oh dear. Such conjecture on the subject of whether Rupert is ‘fair and balanced’.
    Now that’s a laugh.
    Perhaps someone may explain to the ‘out of order’ Sparta exactly why Mr. Dunlop does no longer grace the blogsphere.

  89. Rambo-Nasking….

    Nice..

  90. “Insiders needs some fresh blood”

    Indeed Ben. My wife groans everytime the camera pans across the couched ones & the chosen to be blowhard in the throne.

    I use the FF on the remote a fair bit…or just don’t bother recording it. Only watched it the other day ’cause they mentioned on a promo that Julia Gillard would be on board. S’ takes keen interest in what she has to say. Usually she’ll wander off if I’m watching it.

    “Rambo-Nasking….Nice..”

    gracias reb, more like Bambo

    do you identify w/ Tin Tin or Milou (Snowy)? I’d be thinkin’ you’d be fond of Loch Lomond Single Malt eh?
    🙂

    N’

  91. Got it Nas..younger days, needed a shave and after a dose of ‘Sun’in’.

  92. Min. is it raining buckets down yer way? We’re getting buckets & buckets worth. Grrrrreat for veges. And other plants.

    At this moment I am not watching Fox News or Sky News…I’m on here.

    Nor do I intend to watch Fox News in the future…

    or Sky News if it continues w/ the MYOPIC FOCUS of fear-mongering & HYPING isolated incidents that I witnessed on that so called “news service” earler in the day. I’ll probably just spend more time researching and commenting/reading on here.

    Alright w/ you Davo? Gotta chuckle reading your comment to Davo Toiletboss. Nice one.

    John, I’m glad to hear that you & yer insurer are on more amicable terms.

    N’

  93. Nasking,

    I’m more of a Tin Tin boy. (We share the same hairdo).

    Funny you should mention Loch Lomond. What a beautiful spot.

    My grandmother used to have a Caravan there. We visited her a few times there when I was a boy.

    I can remember a big white fluffy dog used to ‘guard’ the entry way..

  94. “Funny you should mention Loch Lomond. What a beautiful spot.”

    Quite a place reb…superb:

    Some info about loch lomond song by John McDermott

    N’

  95. “Well, slap me with a feather and call me Alice”.

    joni…bet you & the bo will enjoy this…w/ a sherry and dim lit room:

    It’s dreamy weather we’re on
    You waved your crooked wand
    Along an icy pond with a frozen moon
    A murder of silhouette crows I saw
    And the tears on my face
    And the skates on the pond
    They spell Alice

    I disappear in your name
    But you must wait for me
    Somewhere across the sea
    There’s a wreck of a ship
    Your hair is like meadow grass on the tide
    And the raindrops on my window
    And the ice in my drink
    Baby all I can think of is Alice

    cheers
    N’

  96. John McPhilbin, on April 2nd, 2009 at 12:50 pm Said:

    Whistleblower Beats Bullies
    http://workers.labor.net.au/251/news84_bullies.html

    FFS : what a softc0ck ! Will diddums ever get over it and get back into the workforce ?

  97. Davo, don’t be a wanker.

  98. I rarely miss the 7:30 Report on the ABC. It was a goodie tonight. I felt like I was a fly on the wall watching a tête-à-tête between two of the wisest men in Australia…Kerry O’Brien interviewing former Australian PM Paul Keating:

    http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2009/s2533676.htm

    This was a key part of the interview for me:

    KERRY O’BRIEN: Well, you wrote in the ‘London Financial Times’ on March 4 that the question is whether President Obama will recognise the opportunity of this G20 or whether, …”the advice of old advisors will keep him and the rest of us in the current economic and strategic rut.” That’s your question.

    PAUL KEATING: That’s the question.

    KERRY O’BRIEN: What’s your answer? Does he have the necessary toughness to bite a bullet that those around might be telling him he doesn’t need to bite?

    PAUL KEATING: No one wants to be – you see, the trouble about Governments, no one wants to be the executioner. No one wants to go in and lop their heads off at these banks. But to give the President his due, he’s done that very thing to Rick Wagoner at General Motors this last week. Right after 10 years of Wagoner running GM into the ground and with a Federal bailout, the President has finally said, “Gone”.

    Unfortunately it took the President to do it. It should have been done by the commerce secretary, it should have been done some time ago. Now, maybe Barack Obama has the bottle to knock the heads off Citibank and some of the others.

    KERRY O’BRIEN: But he’s got around him as his key advisors, when you talk about the old advisors, I wonder whether in part you’re referring to Larry Summers and to that matter, to his Secretary of Treasury, Tim Geitner? Because their background is very much steeped in the culture of Wall Street, as was Hank Paulson’s with President Bush, as was Robert Rubin with Bill Clinton?

    PAUL KEATING: Indeed. Nobody wants to have in their CV in the upper echelons of the American economic family that they nationalised major banks.

    KERRY O’BRIEN: And you believe that’s what has to happen?

    PAUL KEATING: Well, I think it has to happen, Kerry, because in the end if there’s no shareholder capital – and let’s take Citibank – there probably isn’t any shareholder capital left. So what sort of ruse, who sort of foe game is it that we’ve have an old board, old management, old loans, and we’re to spend American public money after the old loans, rather than axing the management and recapitalising the banks so it’s lending tomorrow. Now if it lends tomorrow, the other big banks have got to lend too otherwise they start losing market share.

    KERRY O’BRIEN: So, do you believe that it is one fundamental test for President Obama, that he has to move to at least temporarily nationalise one or more of these big banks that you say are either nearly insolvent or perhaps even insolvent?

    PAUL KEATING: Why should we be actually selling toxic assets out of a bank which has had it? You see? So someone’s got to go in and put the bullet through them. Now, who’s it going to be? I don’t know whether Larry or Tim, both whom I know, I don’t know whether they’re up to it or whether they want to do it.

    And what an amazing character art dealer Ray Hughes seems to be…and what a collection of diverse art works. You could spend many adventurous hours perusing that feast of a collection I reckon.

    Top marks to Clarke and Dawe attending the G20 summit in London. Funny as…

    S’ & thoroughly dug the show tonight. Good on the entire 7.30 Report crew.

    Luved that interview w/ Dylan Moran last night too.

    Some might accuse me of being too effusive…but after the long years of gulag television under Howard, w/ most news broadcasts tasting like you spent a nite passed out w/ yer gob in the ashtray, I don’t mind doing a dance under the light ecstatic when something hits the pleasure zone in my wee gray cells. Thumbs up from M’lady too.

    N’

  99. Dear davo

    Around here we like John, even if he is a little obsessive about the cut and paste posts.

    We really appreciate contributors that show mean spiritedness towards those that deserve it, unfortunately you’ve chosen incorrectly in this case.

    Therefore you risk undermining all the good will you established earlier today with your very thoughtful and highly informative comment.

    While plenty sarcasm and derisive abuse is appropriate, please choose more carefully in future.

    For example, please review the following thread; you might get a better idea of the protocols, and a more appropriate objective, for your preferred mode of commentary –

    https://blogocrats.wordpress.com/2009/04/01/constitutional-challenge-to-stimulus/#comments

    Your feedback is valuable to us, thank you for your continued interest and patronage.

    Kindest regards

    Tom of Melbourne

  100. Davo, here’s a song to calm you down. It was written about you: Dust in the Wind.

  101. davo, on April 2nd, 2009 at 8:47 pm

    Davo, your reposting of that link was egregious. That link has had more airings than I’ve had feeds.

  102. I thought Red Kerry is because he’s a red-head.

  103. Oftenbark,

    “Perhaps someone may explain to the ‘out of order’ Sparta exactly why Mr. Dunlop does no longer grace the blogsphere.”

    I did catch wind there was a disagreement over what was news worthy etcetera but again, prior to Tim’s departure, I would hardly say he was censored? Besides, I thought he was looking for more time with the family etcetera…It was my understanding it wasn’t all about the biz……….

  104. “Quoting the “Daily Kos” or “echoing” their tripe is truly revealing”

    Unlike the tripe we get from Fox News.
    N’

  105. With due respect Sparta, and not to labour the point concerning the departure of Mr. Dunlop, a quick search by your good self to web sites ‘Crikey’ and ‘Road To Surfdom’ may reveal more of the goings on prior to Tim’s departure from Faux News Corp.

  106. Leader of the Opposition Rupert Murdoch speaking from his New York home (“look at me Ma, I’m on top of the world”) stated today that he & his carbuncle, Malcopops, are determined to throw every pie possible at PM Kevin Rudd whilst on his trip overseas.

    Murdoch, all of a twitter over recent hand pumping between Rudd and the very Chinese leaders who “mooned” his media ambitions lately, declared:

    “We will have no more of this STIMULATING of the public Rudd style. I did not create a media empire in order for the public to be stimulated…rather the dumbed down require little more than to open their gobs, close their eyes & feed voraciously on pap, fear, fast food and sexual titilation. There is little stimulus and movement required.”

    Malcopops, the festering boil-like creature attached to his derriere then agreed most vociferously:

    “I agree, no more STIMULATION!”

    Murdoch, a Napoleon enthusiast, then went into a deep sleep for five minutes…and upon awakening again (some fellow journalists disputed such) spoke passionately regarding the latest Opposition campaign:

    “No longer will we just throw pies from the Left & the Right at Kevin Rudd…we will move beyond the traditional Left/Right approach…the faux Centre attack will be our speciality…we will pelt him and his supporters from every angle…his stimulating smile will meet every kind of pie. Red meat pies, puffed rice pies from China, French onion pie, Fox pie… you name it pal…(clears his throat) I mean mate.”

    With that Murdoch then proceeded to drain his carbuncle & requested all reporters leave the room until further notice.

    N’ reporting for Better Than Your Average Bear Boo Boo media.

  107. “Unlike the tripe we get from Fox News.”

    Yes, well nobody is citing that network as the arbiter of journalistic integrity, are they? Apparently a CNN/TIME described center left website holds that honor…..

  108. Tsk, tsk…the Chinese panda bears are prolly turned into pies so they can replace the traditional blowtorch from the inside-out. Digest that Manchurian candidate! 😉

  109. “Carbuncle”

    Now that mental picture is just nasty!

  110. “Now that mental picture is just nasty!”

    Yes, he hasn’t been looking well of late.

    N’

  111. BREAKING NEWS

    A red meat pie basted w/ egg-on-face yolk in order to give a yellow appearance, and then baked at intense temperatures in a dish lined with the perspiration of Joe Hockey has been thrown at Australian PM Kevin Rudd as he accepted his award for BEST EGALITARIAN at the anuual G-20 awards ceremony.

    Apparently it missed its target.

    Further updates later.

    N’…reporting for Better than Your Average Bear Boo

  112. Boo

  113. Hell of a party on this thread, sorry I missed it.

    As for the topic, well Fox News would seem fair and balanced only to a member of the John Birch Society or maybe the Klan.

    To everyone else, it’s wingnut city.

  114. Re Sparta’s carbuncle. Simon and Carbuncle are coming to Oz and will even be in Brissy.

    For son who arrives back into Cairns this weekend..

  115. Mn – and I will be going to S&G with my brother and his kids. Unmissable.

  116. Not Sparta’s carbuncle Min…Murdoch’s carbuncle.

    Good choice of song Min. I likey this too:

    Simon and Garfunkel – Bridge Over Troubled Water (Live 1969)

    N’

  117. Nas..my favorite has to be The Boxer.

    A lesser known verse is:

    Now the years are rolling by me, they are rockin even me
    I am older than I once was, and younger than Ill be, thats not unusual
    No it isnt strange, after changes upon changes, we are more or less the same
    After changes we are more or less the same

  118. BREAKING NEWS

    Authorities warned today that Chinese food warriors are controlling our microwaves.

    Chief of Artificial Intelligence I P N Fearnighlty informs our warm & cuddly correspondent that an outbreak of pies suddenly transforming into Dim Sums has been occurring in microwaves of Chinese origin across this Great Southern Land.

    “It’s a menace to society” stated Fearnightly wearing a protective tinfoil suit. “Our very meat pie culture is in peril”.

    A further update after this correspondent finishes searching his steamed bun for spy bugs.

    N…reporting for Better than Your Average Bear Boo Boo Media

  119. Nas. I find the above story completely unbelievable. Who in their right mind would heat a pie in the microwave? The pastry goes soggy.

  120. BREAKING NEWS

    Your furry correspondent has learned that the Faux News & Sky High enterprises are just PUMPED today over the exciting revelation that one in ten Americans are still dumbed down potato heads.

    Apparently, as reported by the AFP today (ya gotta admit it’s becoming a police state when the Federal Police have their own media organisation) it seems enough dunderheads, responding to yet another BORING poll by Pew Research from March 9-12, have identified Barack Obama as a Muslim.

    One concerned Californian media professor nervously stated, after blabbering on hysterically about terminating robots & 4 day weekends, that

    “This poll demonstrates without a doubt that there exists enough living dead in American dens to keep the Faux media & blowhard shock jocks rolling in oodles of Yankee Doodle Dollars for the next few years…or until Doomsday…whichever they decide is more appropriate”

    Apparently Faux News has achieved nirvana by way of chess-like strategies:

    http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/07/fox_news_poll_do_you_have_a_ne.php

    Apparently similar polls have revealed that the too bloody apathetic to get an education but keen to drool into a rib’s bucket on the way home from Monster Truck Mash also believe that Australian Kevin Rudd is a Mongolian…and Angela Merkel is a type of German racing car.

    N’

  121. “Who in their right mind would heat a pie in the microwave?”

    These are obviously end days Min.

    😉

    N’

  122. Isn’t that how pie pastry is meant to be? Admittedly, I couldn’t read the written destructions in Chinese, so I just followed the visual instructions, liberally applied the supplied sachet of communist sauce, and dug in with both chopsticks.

  123. Nas..now all this well researched thingy is well enough. However, I’ve still gotcha. Aussies do not reheat their pies in the microwave because the pastry goes soggy. Prove it..go on prove it!

    Heard that one too Nas. Rudd, chinky, chinky Chinaman. He might look like a blonde, but is he really Rudd-blonde??

    [with apologies..almost didn’t post above, but what the heck].

  124. Min, on April 3rd, 2009 at 12:21 pm Said:

    “Nas..my favorite has to be The Boxer.”

    Me too, Min. It has to be one of my most favourite songs ever. Although I reckon that the G20 crowd would nominate this one at the moment.

  125. Bugger, my link vanished. It’s Sound of Silence and I don’t think it’s going to work again.

  126. Well, waddaya know.

  127. Wonderful choice for that particular song Jane.

    Garfunkel…the confidence…those lips…seducing…yet assured.

    Get’s me thinkin’ of his character in Catch 22, Captain Nately…and a discussion that speaks to my early confusion about service or survival:

    From Catch-22 the movie (1970)

    Capt. Nately: Don’t you have any principles?
    Old man in whorehouse: Of course not!
    Capt. Nately: No morality?
    Old man in whorehouse: I’m a very moral man, and Italy is a very moral country. That’s why we will certainly come out on top again if we succeed in being defeated.
    Capt. Nately: You talk like a madman.
    Old man in whorehouse: But I live like a sane one. I was a fascist when Mussolini was on top. Now that he has been deposed, I am anti-fascist. When the Germans were here, I was fanatically pro-German. Now I’m fanatically pro-American. You’ll find no more loyal partisan in all of Italy than myself.
    Capt. Nately: You’re a shameful opportunist! What you don’t understand is that it’s better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.
    Old man in whorehouse: You have it backwards. It’s better to live on your feet than to die on your knees. I know.
    Capt. Nately: How do you know?
    Old man in whorehouse: Because I am 107-years-old. How old are you?

    I think I know where I stand now.

    I reckon 5 years of uncertainty…possible fatal repercussions…and still going…

    yea.

    Not interested in getting knee pads.

    N’

  128. And yet…can we TRUST the WAR MACHINE? Particularly when it becomes a self-replicating, privileged FEW feeding monster?

    Will WE be respected for our efforts, potential sacrifice?…or become a steaming pile of red to paint on our flag for the benefit of those who wave it?…stand before cameras, posing in front of it. Gaining from the VIEW.

    Or possibly a number?

    In a variety of currencies?

    Snowden: character in the novel Catch 22

    Snowden is a member of Yossarian’s flight during a mission, and acts as catalyst for the fundamental change in Yossarian’s mentality and outlook. After their plane takes heavy anti-aircraft fire, Snowden is mortally wounded and it is Yossarian who attempts to come to Snowden’s aid by treating his visible wounds with white bandages and sulfanilamide powder.

    Critically, however, Yossarian only notices and treats a wound on Snowden’s leg. Eventually Yossarian notices the major wound, a stomach/chest wound, and realizes that his care for Snowden was useless and there was nothing he could have done to save him. Snowden grows weak and cold in the chill of high altitude flight, and dies muttering “I’m cold” in response to Yossarian’s “There, there.” In a last, vain effort to save him, Yossarian tries to warm the boy up by wrapping him in a white parachute.

    Before Snowden dies, his intestines pour out of a hole caused by a chunk of flak, which ripped straight through his ribs. The sight shocks and horrifies Yossarian and he realizes that a body without a soul is simply an empty shell, which is nothing more than garbage. Snowden’s death embodies Yossarian’s desire to evade death in combat; by seeing Snowden’s entrails spilling over the plane, he feels that “Man was matter, that was Snowden’s secret. Drop him out a window and he’ll fall. Set fire to him and he’ll burn. Bury him and he’ll rot, like other kinds of garbage. The spirit gone, man is garbage.” Ironically, he is described as preferring to die naturally rather than being killed in combat. It is a meaningless, premature death for someone else’s cause—in someone else’s place—that Yossarian fears.[citation needed]

    Yossarian’s realization of this as he looks at Snowden can be linked to Dunbar’s as he looks into the Soldier in White, especially by the prevalence of white in the scene.[citation needed]

    The experience on the plane dramatically changes Yossarian’s attitude towards life. He now looks only to protect his own life and, to a lesser extent, the lives of his close friends. Yossarian also turns against the military after this flight and refuses to wear a uniform. His justification is that he simply “doesn’t want to”, perhaps because he was traumatized and depressed by Snowden’s death.

    The excuse Captain Korn gives to General Dreedle is that Snowden died in one uniform, and his remains were soaked into Yossarian’s, and all of Yossarian’s other articles of clothing were in the laundry. General Dreedle says “That sounds like a lot of crap to me.” Yossarian replies, “It is a lot of crap, sir.”
    (Wiki pedia)

    Doves – Snowden

    N’

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