All I want for Christmas is detention

I am pretty damn angry with news that the federal government is going to use the 800 bed detention centre  gaol on Christmas Island that has been empty since its completion earlier this year.

Senator Evans said yesterday:

The Rudd Government’s policy is to accommodate small groups of unauthorised boat arrivals in the Phosphate Hill and Construction Camp facilities while they undergo health, security and identity checks.

So it seems that the current government is going to be the same as the previous government in locking up asylum seekers. This does not impress me one bit.

Pamela Curr of the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre said in the Opposition Organ:

I’ve seen the detention prison and I know from past experience that places like that make people sick 

I love the irony that at Christmas we are going to lock up people on a place called Christmas Island, and all because we are “swamped” with boat people (164 boats in total this year against 148 last year).

😦

joni

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69 Responses

  1. I say just scrap your borders Joni and build a land bridge to Asia.

  2. “while they undergo health, security and identity checks.”

    I don’t have a problem with that rationale. I suspect some will be suffering with TB and it is best if they are identified quickly and appropriately treated. And there is the off-chance they will find some terrorists who are either too poor or too stupid to simply fly in as thousands do every year. Lol.

    The real test comes with how long they are held and the treatment afforded to women and children.

    For those who are afforded ‘refugee’ status. All their Christmasses will have come at once. Lol.

  3. From the report on AM this morning, I don’t think the Government is too happy about the decision either because they didn’t wan’t to have to use it.

    An interesting comment from the Human Rights Commissioner this morning though about people complaining about the number of boat people (less than 200 this year) when there were around 250 people claiming asylum after World Youth Day that arrived by plane. Why isn’t the opposition crying out about these queue jumpers.

    I agree though joni – it sucks that we have to lock up these people in a supermax type facility but what disgusts me even more is that our Government at the time felt the ‘need’ (desire?) to build this thing in the first place for exactly this purpose.

  4. I agree joni. It’s abhorrent.

    Even our compliant media go along with the government’s spin.

    I heard one report say that the boat people will be sent to Christmas Island for “processing”

    “Processing?” WTF is that?

    Processing is something you do to canned meat to turn it into SPAM.

    Or worse still, “processing” of jews at concentration camps.

    It’s an absolute disgrace and shame on the Rudd Government for perpetrating this inhumane conduct.

  5. I’d rather they used this facility than accommodate them in inadequate conditions elsewhere.

    From the sound of it there is no intention of utilising the full gaol security facilites so I don’t believe it is as big a problem as some are trying to insinuate. It may not be ideal but housing them in worse conditions may be even less ideal.

  6. I concur with Dave55 and no the government isn’t happy about it. Plus would like to add that I believe that the Inn is now full at the Construction Camp site. Also no women nor children will be sent to the mega million dollar detention camp. I can’t find the link..but read something which meant that it would cost One Million Dollars per asylum seeker to have them locked up at the new concentration camp.

    As long as the government keeps it’s promise about timely processing of asylum seekers….

    And I agree with Nature about health checks. Polio, tuberculosis, cholera, HIV, measles and of course not just transferable diseases but preventable diseases.

  7. Honestly gentlemen, what country outside the Western world cannot claim asylum for one reason or another these days? Should you guys put them up in 5 star accommodations? Really, I realize it is easy enough to come across as noble with such sentiments but frankly if you guys were running things your country would cease to exist. Good point about the “asylum by air” route though. Here in the States it is the “holiday traveler” and “student visa” that is more of a problem. Anyway, here is just one small program in a list of hundreds that are routinely abused. Still, you guys seem to have a visiting international sports team coming up missing just about every few months.

    http://www.state.gov/g/prm/refadm/rls/fs/2008/111770.htm

    “It may not be ideal but housing them in worse conditions may be even less ideal.”

    Well considering most come from regions without running water, it is probably a step up but some will insist they are afforded the comforts we all enjoy just for washing up, at somebody else’s expense of course. Got to love people that create a situation for themselves and then demand someone else rectify their decision and when you don’t you’re labeled callous or in violation of their “human rights”.

  8. Sparta re: Should you guys put them up in 5 star accommodations?

    Sparta, it would be cheaper.

  9. Well considering most come from regions without running water..from Sparta.

    And so this is an excuse for treating people at a lower standard than you yourself would expect to be treated. After all, they’re only 3rd world colored people and come ‘from regions without running water..’.

    Sparta, we have a duty of care to all people who seek asylum in our country. And we are obliged to provide these people with appropriate food, clothing, clean drinking water and a timely assessment of their claim of refugee status.

    Just in case you missed it, an Afghani refugee came DUX of his school in Victoria and received a TER of 99.8. Only 5 years ago he was a refugee with no english.

  10. I don’t know, we have scrapped out borders and seem to have built a bridge to the US to take in all their escaping citizens without question. Damn we’d even take in Sparta if he applied.

    And you are right Min on the price. That facility is a very expensive joke and even had US agents here checking it out during construction. There was a rumour it was going to be our Gitmo and it is a fact US administration personnel involved with Gitmo visited Christmas Island.

    Amanda Vanstone once had to put up a group of assylum seekers in four star hotel accommodation and it was cheaper than the purpose built detention centres, and that was before the massive white elephant was built at Christmas Island. Yet another failed Howard legacy for all the world to see.

    But as has been reported if they are only staying there for health, identity and security checks then it is probably prudent use of an otherwise moribund facility.

  11. And MIn our greatest pioneering heart surgeon, who ended up being murdered, was a refugee.

  12. “Sparta, it would be cheaper.”

    Now that is exacly why government is usually not the answer to most issues! Hell, if things are this good perhaps me and the wife will just wash up ourselves. You guys do take anybody right? Forget a skill, I will just let Adrian cover my expenses and then I can spew my “Captain American” from your own shores! Nah, much easier to just fly in and never go home……

  13. I know of one place that is vacant at the moment Kirribilli House,I am sure they would make good use of it

  14. “I don’t have a problem with that rationale. I suspect some will be suffering with TB
    2. Nature 5 | December 19, 2008 at 12:14 pm”

    You have no idea how much I have suffered with TB’s comments. I agree that TB should be quarantined.

  15. Sparta and Neil, obvious differences of opinion aside, I think Blogocrats will only benefit from both of your inputs.

    I’m also glad Carlyle has also come back into the fray.

    I should say that whether we agree or disagree it’s the level of respect and good natured digs (most of the time) that makes this a great place to come to.

  16. Sparta:

    “I say just scrap your borders Joni and build a land bridge to Asia.”

    Good idea. It would save on those hefty excessive luggage fees I get slugged with everytime I return home fro SE Asia.

  17. Min:

    “Sparta, we have a duty of care to all people who seek asylum in our country. And we are obliged to provide these people with appropriate food, clothing, clean drinking water and a timely assessment of their claim of refugee status.”

    Well said Min. I understand that in the UK, refugees are integrated into society without being incarcerated for months/years. Often with “host” families.

    I may wrong on this, and am happy to be corrected if I am. But that is my present understanding.

  18. Min:

    “Sparta, we have a duty of care to all people who seek asylum in our country. And we are obliged to provide these people with appropriate food, clothing, clean drinking water and a timely assessment of their claim of refugee status.”

    Well I won’t disagree we have responsibilities to fellow human beings in general I do believe that responsibility should begin with our fellow countrymen. From what I can tell most Aboriginals live much like those washing up on your shores. Seems to me, we should be caring for our own down-trodden first before we take on the task of saving the world from itself. In all honesty Min, I understand where your heart is and I share it but I also find fault in a system that is so incompetent and so easily abused. Believe me, it is being abused and many are looking for the least expensive route in which to enter. Many arriving are not those most in need a lot of the time, how else do you think they are able to raise such sums to pay the smugglers for starters? To Adrian’s point, it has nothing to do with intelligence or race but certainly many must see that we undermine ourselves by depriving those countries most in need of their best and brightest. We simply perpetuate these problems for future generations; whether it is through a skilled visa or not. We cannot save the world by importing its people to our shores or circumventing our laws but we must stand firm and make hard decisions at times. We must change or work to change the situations that brought them here. Unfortunately, what many of them are trying to escape is their own culture. Sure, it makes us all feel good to be the humanitarian but have you really ever considered the long term consequences of such sentiments on a large scale? Again, it is always easy to take the humanitarian’s stance or speak from such a position but try looking at this scenario from a position that considers all parties effected, like the Aboriginal for instance.

  19. No Sparta the easy way out is not the humanitarian way, it nearly always is the hardest way.

    Your simple black and white, good and evil, us and them way of isolation, denigration, recourse to violence to solve problems and might makes right is the simple and easy way.

  20. “Your simple black and white, good and evil, us and them way of isolation, denigration, recourse to violence to solve problems and might makes right is the simple and easy way.”

    Your brillance continues to astound me Adrian, as always. My whole life, and now here you are. Thank you, I can sleep better now knowing that our world is safer with you in it and your intellect. I am truly inspired especially by your sophisticated theory of “US BAD, ME KNOWS THE TRUTH” or “IT ALL FOR OIL”. Yes, what a complex mind you have…..Very hard indeed to point fingers, call people names or some up your entire Geopolitical philosphy from one prospective. Again, I can admit the US has failings but I don’t see the point in viewing the world from them.

  21. “I can admit the US has failings but I don’t see the point in viewing the world from them”

    But that’s exactly what you continue to do! Constantly. Unwaveringly defending your country’s continuous litany of monumental stuff ups on a global scale.

    FFS! Is the irony of your constant arguing for the way the US “does things” never occur to you?

    “American Intelligence” an oxymoron if ever there was one.

    “Weapons of Mass Destruction?” *Cough* *Cough*

    And what did Iraq and Saddam Hussein have to do with 9/11 again? Care to enlighten us? Anything, anything at all?

    The fact that you accuse me of ranting is laughable.

    Do you really believe the nonsense you continue to blabber on about here, or are you writing this stuff from insitution somewhere where they occasionally allow you to have internet access?

    FMD.

  22. I was interested in an email I received from a good friend, she is an Aussie lass married to an American serviceman. She stated: You lot are all so lazy, why doesn’t England, Europe and Australia come to help the Americans in Iraq? And she is an educated woman.

    It has been suggested that Americans won’t find out about the truth in Iraq until the next Bruce Willis movie.

  23. Just like love, to much Pride can be blinding.
    So to illegal invasions and detention of people without trial.
    I have no reasons to look to America for knowledge on any front.
    I will get less lies that way. Also America writes its own history i understand why you see it different.

    I hope Obama restores some hope.

  24. I clicked on this and thought I was on the shoe thread.

  25. Well said Min. I understand that in the UK, refugees are integrated into society without being incarcerated for months/years. Often with “host” families.

    I may wrong on this, and am happy to be corrected if I am. But that is my present understanding.~reb

    You could be right, reb, and the following doesn’t contradict you as such, but it doesn’t exactly sound like a bed of roses for refugees who make it to Britain. (Of course we should bear in mind, that this was written an asylum seekers advocacy group.)

    The Facts
    The reality is that most asylum seekers’ accommodation is in ’ghettos‘ in deprived areas. They are housed in poor quality accommodation – often previously hard to let – sometimes in areas where research has shown they are more likely to face racial harassment. A Home Office report looking at the problems caused said there might be a case for changing the policy so that some asylum seekers would be sent to relatively less problematic areas.

  26. Same conversation…two rooms…defrag would be good.

  27. Just a change of topic, courtest of ABC http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/12/20/2451919.htm. US group seeks to annul gay marriages..

    Now to me marriage is a legally binding contract, hence the term a contract of marriage. Therefore comes under contract law. An annulment under law is only able because of: coercion prior to the contract, that one of the partners was unable to enter into the contract because for example being under age or being of being already married or being close relatives (such as brother and sister).

    However, there is nothing under Common Law that forbids the marriage of same sex partners, nor is there anthing under Common Law which would allow an annulment retrospectively.

  28. Having passed through several countries that offer refuge most of these people are asylum shoppers.

    The Age of 20 December 2008 chronicles the Hasmat story. The Hasmats are a family from Afghanistan who waited patiently for the granting of a humanitarian visa. The Hasmats resisted the temptation of boarding a ‘leaky boat’ and heading for Ashmore Reef. The system does work if you go about correctly.

  29. Whoops sorry. #27 should have been posted to Never Mind the Frolykz.

    EDITOR REB: No worries Min. Because it’s you, you get excused because you’re so lovely and adorable.

    As a general observation, it’s been suggested that comments are tending to go off topic. I’m inclined to agree, and although you all know that joni and I like to intervene as little as possible, I think this is a valid point. Howabout we keep the general threads like Weekend Frolykz and Midweek Mayhem dedicated to general discussion, and make a best effort to keep the other threads on topic. I’m as guilty as this as anyone else, so no one is being singled out.

    Also we’ll be introducing some new general discussion threads aside from Wednesday’s and Friday’s to provide everyone with a forum for general chat and issues which are unrelated to specific topics.

    On behalf of me and joni, thanks for your continued contributions and involvement, and if you have any suggestions just email joni or me at blogocrats@yahoo.com

  30. Stephan,

    “The system does work if you go about correctly.”

    Kind of where I was trying to take the conversation but as usual the same suspects rush in to condemn such a sentiment. I guess it doesn’t have that “humanist” tone to it that many like to hear echoed back and forth. Much, much easier to condemn Rudd here and feel for the poor “refugee/visa jumper”. Some folks are just so niave and quite a necessity for such “scams” to work. Keep it up folks, you might be able to pass that 50 million in a decade at the rate your going. Asylum seekers, what a sham…….

  31. Some bloggers assume that they hold the high ground because they are against detention of illegal immigrants. They infer that those of us who support orderly migration are callous monsters, as they accuse the former government that upheld our generous immigration laws of being. To suggest that those who support these policies enjoy the fact that these policies cause human misery is offensive & one eyed. Much greater misery & death was caused by the less strict policies prior to the Howard Governments tougher stand, with many people drowning at the hands of unscrupulous people smugglers. Rudd is already finding that the feel good softening of those policies is encouraging an increase in the number arriving illegally, inevitably at the expense of legal migrants. If the rules are not strict, greater human misery results, not less. Allowing queue jumping will swamp the lifeboat.

  32. #28. Stephan | December 20, 2008 at 5:46 pm

    Having passed through several countries that offer refuge most of these people are asylum shoppers.

    The Age of 20 December 2008 chronicles the Hasmat story. The Hasmats are a family from Afghanistan who waited patiently for the granting of a humanitarian visa. The Hasmats resisted the temptation of boarding a ‘leaky boat’ and heading for Ashmore Reef. The system does work if you go about correctly.

    And while they waited patiently dozens or more others were persecuted, tortured or executed.

    The old queue jumping incrimination. Of course if Stephan and his family were being persecuted and he had the possibility of being killed at any moment he would patiently put in his paperwork and wait until the authorities gave him a visa.

  33. What a load of crap Carlyle and so typical.

    There have been only slightly more people this year than in the last year of Howard and less than in some years before that under Howard. So how come the media weren’t going on about the numbers under Howard but are under Rudd?

    I just hate this recent wingnut attack started by Turnbull and taken up by the wingnut media that Rudd apparent softness on asylum seekers has caused a flood of them. Bullcrap.

  34. Just a small point and something that has always stuck in my craw..that is, calling asylum seekers ‘illegals’. It is not illegal to seek asylum. Until a person’s claim for asylum is assessed then any person whether come via plane, leaking boat or camel they are asylum seekers and not ‘illegals’. It’s the good old innocent until proven otherwise.

  35. That’s another good point Min, it seems that it is only the way you come into this country that persecutes you. Fly in, which many more illegal immigrants do to this country do than come by boat, and you are not a problem.

    Is it that the over stayers and real illegals who fly in inevitably have more money and influence than those who come in by boat, and also those who come by plane are of a different ethnicity?

  36. Sorry mangled my sentence in the last one, very heavy night last night.

  37. Adrian,

    “Of course if Stephan and his family were being persecuted and he had the possibility of being killed at any moment he would patiently put in his paperwork and wait until the authorities gave him a visa.”

    Well clearly you have never been to South Phoenix there Adrian. Again, by your standards anybody in the world is eligible for “asylum”. So build a ferry service from Indonesia already and stop the whining. Oh but wait, again always easier when it somebody else’s dime isn’t it. Last time I checked taxes were suppose to be used in the betterment of your fellow countrymen, not welfare to the world? When the Aboriginal’s have escaped the deplorable conditions on your own shores in large measure, then maybe it would make sense to try and save the 4 billion looking for the nearest vessel. You scream about global warming etcetera but advocate uncontrollable population influx that will simply add to the “footprint”. Your logic is as brilliant as

  38. Carlyle,

    Yes, it is the usual tripe with no mention of policy. Regardless of Adrian’s blather, it is easy to just cry foul without acknowledging the long term consequences of some of these views. Clearly Rudd lives in the real world and doesn’t have the luxury of just trying to make others “feel good” about themselves. “Feelings, nothing more than feelings…..”

  39. And of course Sparta you just throw in straw men and the most illogical tenuous links to irrelevant stuff yet accuse me of being illogical.

    And what has South Phoenix got to do with anything. I lived in San Diego for two years, does that count for anything in your narrow little world view of things?

    Now tell us Sparta, if Mexico overran your neck of the woods and you were being persecuted by them with the threat of having you and your family wiped out at any time, are you just going to sit there, submit your paperwork and wait patiently until Canada or some other country took you in?

  40. What are you on about policy Sparta? Rudd has clearly iterated a policy unlike the previous government who made it up on the run, more for populism and political gain for the redneck vote than any real reason to control immigration. Yet for all that and locking away children in prison conditions worse than the mainland criminal jails, Howard’s policy on that front did not decrease the boat people. It was liaison and working with the Indonesian authorities to crack down on people smugglers that did.

    And yet again you go on about the rants and raves of others as though your rants and raves are somehow superior.

  41. Lucky you Adrian..hubby and I watched tellie and had an early night.

    With all the publicity re ‘boat people’ and the very small increase in numbers, any stats about how many arrive via plane/on visas of one sort or another and then claim asylum? And how do these numbers compare with boat people?

    It seems to me that some sections of the media still believe that the fright value of ‘hoards of boat people’ still resonates with the Australian public.

  42. “Feelings, nothing more than feelings…..”

    Isn’t that a song?

  43. That’s it Min. We are opening the doors and are going to be flooded, overwhelmed and rooned, the same thing that has Sparta shitting his pants in the US.

    It was the same argument when my parents came here from Holland in the 50’s and were persecuted and vilified for.

    Then it was the Italians and Greeks, who I had run ins with in my youf, purely on racial grounds (on our behalf of vilifying them, after all I was bought up that vilifying foreigners was normal for an Australian).

    Then it was the Asians and the first boat people, who I sympathised with as I was older and wiser, yet Howard at the time vilified and wanted kicked out of the country. By the way in my time in the Navy I rescued several Vietnamese boat people.

    After the Asians followed the Arabs which is now reaching its zenith, just as it did with the Europeans and Asians.

    Now it’s the Africans.

    I guess when the vilification of the Africans, which Bolt has started, runs its course Americans will have to be next as they will be coming here in hoards as they leave the country they’ve stuffed up and which is apparently being overrun by Hispanics and Mexicans.

  44. “And yet again you go on about the rants and raves of others as though your rants and raves are somehow superior.”

    Hardly believe my opinions/ideas are superior just waiting to be convinced by others. Unlike yourself, I am more than open to “new ideas” but you hardly have any of those, simply criticisms with all who take a different stance then you. Well then tell me, if you have a better idea of dealing with “Asylum” seekers; by all means put it forward. Please, tell me who isn’t eligible for Asylum under the current policy? Calling those that just want the laws enforced bigots, racists or “red necks” is hardly offering a better solution. If you’re telling me that anybody who wants to leave there current standing and move to Australia is “entitled” to a new life courtesy of the Australian tax payer because “they say their oppressed” then tell me how you prove such a thing first of all and how you plan to care for some 4 billion? The only thing I can agree with you on so far is the “refugee by air” scenario, a major problem here in the states as well. My personal favorite is the “Temporary Migrant”, another farce pushed on my countrymen.

    My point being is I am in more danger than many of these refugees if I venture into parts of South Phoenix. Does that mean I am eligible for Asylum in Australia by your definition? Perhaps the generous health care, standard of living etcetera might be motivating some to over look less generous countries where there is also “just the safety” you seem to think is all their interested in? Kind of ceases to be desperation then and more of a strategy, don’t you think? “Shopping for benefits”, as Shane suggested before you decided to insult him.

  45. Adrian,

    Yes well there also weren’t 6 billion people on the planet when our ancestors came over now was there? There was also something missing called “Welfare” of any kind except for the generosity of the church when my ancestors did it. There was also this thing called a “process” where you went through a front door and when not deemed a health threat were allowed on, without some human rights group or ACLU to sue you or say you were violating their human rights. Guess what, they stayed in isolation on a place called “Ellis Island”, oh the horror. All of immigration into the US from 1850 through to 1930 we had a total of 4-7 million by best estimates. Also, assimilation was mandatory not a dirty word. We now have 15-20 million “illegals” in the US alone that we have incurred in the past 20 years, not counting those coming in the legal route. Yes, same old story Adrian. Controlled immigration, good for the country but immigration policies based on PC politics, moronic!

  46. Adrian,

    Totally agree. Although you forgot to mention South Africans and New Zealanders. They’re arriving here in the thousands, but I guess because they’re white, they pass under the radar fairly easily.

    Sparta:

    “Unlike yourself, I am more than open to “new ideas”

    LOL! That has to be the joke of the week! Mind you, I liked the way you put “new ideas” in inverted commas. Does that mean you’re open to “new ideas” as long as they’re compliant with “your ideas?”

    “Does that mean I am eligible for Asylum in Australia?”

    I sincerely hope not. I doubt you’d pass the psych test anyway…

  47. “Also, assimilation was mandatory not a dirty word.”

    Do you mean like the Borg?

    Howard tried to introduce that concept here as part of his “whitening” of Australia. It didn’t work.

    Unfortunately for Howard the rest of Australia is actually quite happy with multiculturalism.

  48. Here gentleman, just a taste of living next to a 3rd world. You guys really have no idea what were dealing with here. No theory here, real people suffering as a result.

  49. Wake up folks, I can go on all day with the “facts”, “DATA” what do you have other than a misplaced sense of guilt again?

    http://www.libertylobby.org/articles/1997/19970927welfare_abuse.html

    Granted this is the US but the arguments of many here are exactly the same pushed in my country over the last 20 years and ook where we are. Get a clue already Australia and stop following the US hook, line and sinker.

  50. Sparta, thought provoking links.

  51. Sparta, I can almost feel the spittle coming through my screen from one blogger who equates his position on any subject as unassailable & the result of superior wisdom & humanity. Facts are not relevant.
    One ‘fact’ you may have read today related to Dutch immigrants to Australia in the 1950s. Of all immigrant groups they were the highest regarded, just possibly surpassed by the British. Australians welcomed them as hard working, honest & law abiding. That is another unfortunate example of the ‘facts’ we get from some quarters. To be ignored really.

  52. “Does that mean you’re open to “new ideas” as long as they’re compliant with “your ideas?”

    “I sincerely hope not. I doubt you’d pass the psych test anyway…”

    Poor Reb, all comments know substance. Goes right to race…blah, blah, blah…..Must make it easier for you? How sad? I am glad I can give some meaning to your life though sport. All the time you spend commenting on my posts and all…………

  53. Spittle is it? Here again is this wingnut insight that apparently only they possess and makes them superior to mere mortals. You haven’t clue Carlyle how I’m feeling or what my emotions are as I sit here but you profess to be some great sentient who does. Same as all the right leading up to the last election with their crystal balls.

    Sorry Carlyle, my mum and dad were vilified, had mud thrown at their house by one ‘Australian” neighbour and garden waste continuously thrown over the fence onto mum’s pride and joy garden. And they weren’t the only ones of my family or European circle to have this done to them.

    My dad was sacked from one job in the profession he came to Australia to do because his boss was getting that much hassle for allowing a foreigner to take a job apparently one of them could do. Dad ended up taking up another profession and eventually successfully working for himself. But even in retirement they had to move from one place as they got some nasty neighbours who told them to go back to Europe where they belong and kept hassling them.

    So it is you who always ignore facts unless they fit your narrow view of things and it appears it is you that lives outside the real world.

  54. Carlyle,

    Yes, I do enjoy a good joust but at times you have to wonder about the motives of some here. You almost get the impression they disagree just for the sake of. Funny, in most of these little “scrapes” you end up being lambasted but are hardly if ever offered a counter, just more personal attacks. I find myself having to wade into the “mud” myself but would much prefer a civil discussion like that I am able to get with JM at times, even if we disagree. You would think if they had all the “right ideas” they might present one for a change, let alone articulate them, instead of just picking ours apart.

  55. 44. Sparta Phoenix, AZ USA | December 21, 2008 at 10:10 am

    Hardly believe my opinions/ideas are superior just waiting to be convinced by others. Unlike yourself, I am more than open to “new ideas” but you hardly have any of those,

    Now I know you are joking.

    New ideas, you? All you have done here and in Tim’s is spew up the same narrow minded stuff time and again. Rooination for all things outside your narrow and simplistic way to solve the problems of the world.

  56. ..assimilation was mandatory.. Assimilation has never been mandatory (unless you live in a communist/socialist country). Assimilation is a natural occurence as a result of the children of immigrants mixing with their peers.

  57. I don’t really have much of an opinion on this topic, one way or the other…it is inevitable that our population will double in the next fifty years and we have to prepare for this.

  58. Adrian, if it’s any consolation hubby is part ‘wog’ his grandfather being Italian arriving into Victoria in the early 1900’s. Funnily J’s grandpa was a Rat of Tobruk yet was still vilified as ‘a wog’ at the time of post war immigration.

  59. Min I know all about wogs as I was actively racist towards them in my early teens, even going as far as seeking violence against them. I did this because I hung out with what I thought were a group of cool Australians and I so desperately wanted to be Australian, even though I was born here, after seeing what happened to mum and dad as I grew up.

    The group I hung out with were from Clayton, and Oakleigh was fast turning into a wog area at the time where you could go down shopping strips without a single English sign anywhere and Italian and Greek newspapers all over the place. The racist bunch I was with were by no means a minority either, I regularly came across like thinking youfs at school and socially.

    One of the taunts to get fights started was to go on about oil slicks left by wogs at Oakleigh swimming pool, a favourite hang out of ours, as was Chadstone Shopping centre, then the first and only big dedicated shopping mall in Australia.

    The first turnaround came when I was sat next to an Italian girl in school and took a shining to her. We started going out and she had three brothers, one of whom would chaperone us for any dates. They weren’t happy about a skip dating their sister, but gradually I became friends with the brothers and I started hanging out with them more than my previous group, eventually going around their place for the great Italian meals their mother used to whip up.

    That is how I went from racist to being tolerant and understanding. Plus it was a lot kinder on my body having less bruises and broken bits through fights. I was once seriously hurt by whipping from a fishing rod when we picked on the wrong group of wogs. I still have a tooth missing and a slightly crooked nose.

    That’s the real world Min and how it actually was.

  60. Adrian,

    For somebody that feels my ideas are so “old” you completely lack the ability to reason out why? Throwing insults is easy, much like your “humanitarian” stance but why not put some of your own “rationale” out on the table for a change? In short, because you have none, you have passion but what use is it if you cannot formulate them into functional policy? It is all good to demand better treatment for “refugees” and look like the “good guy” but what does that mean exactly? What kind of treatment would you advocate then and how could it be implemented? For a change, before you respond try working out why you disagree with me on policy and less so on the personal front.

  61. My late Dad’s theory is that you know when the wogs/dago/Itis etc have integrated when they start playing real footie (aka Aussie Rules).

    With due respect Sparta, one thing that I’ve always wondered about is why Americans choose to specify their citizens by type, for example, Native Americans, Hispanic Americans, African Americans.

  62. Sorry Sparta I have stated policy in the past, usually along humanitarian lines. I have stated I agree wholeheartedly with Rudd’s way and policy as against Howard’s racist policies and easy way out in this. So if you want to know what I advocate then just look up the current government’s policy.

    Yes as you say it is easy to throw insults and harder to formulate functional policy, but you have never formulated functional policy either, just defended current neocon and Howard failed policy whilst lambasting any alternative policies that don’t fall into your narrow scope of oppressive solutions.

    For instance there was a complete non-violent way to solve the Saddam problem. I backed that and was debating for it fiercely, giving the history of success in doing things that way. This policy was fully fleshed out and tabled, only to be ridiculed by the Bush administration, and you would have have been one of those ridiculing it at the time.

    There are better more humanitarian ways for handling asylum seekers including solving the sources for refugees, which in some cases are caused by the very countries they seek asylum to. Just one example is a flood of Iraqi refugees that was caused by the US invasion, but you would have us believe we should indefinitely lock these people up in horrendous detention centres and treat them like utter dirt for running away from the war your country created.

    So much more Sparta and I’ve argued all this points over and over but I might was bang my head against the wall. I spent many days/weeks arguing against the Iraq war before the invasion and quoted reams of sources and alternatives only to have ridicule, nationalism and the same old straw men arguments you still bring up thrown in my face. I along with so many others said it would be a disaster that would eventually fail (which it will no matter how things are perceived to be going now), to be proved right, yet these same proponents who were proven so wrong still advocate the same course of action and the same failed ways to solve everything.

    You say I said your ideas were ‘old” but that is twisting what you originally stated. You stated I had no new ideas, and I don’t as the old proven ideas are in some cases ancient, yet countries like yours continue to advocate the failed old ideas or find new ways to fail whilst ridiculing the proven successes. Anyway that is all you are doing is advocating existing ideas and not offering anything new yet expect me to become a world problem solver with new ideas sprouting out of every post. That is being disingenuous unless you can advocate something new that can work.

    My point is there are proven ways that work and Bush/Howard were presented with these more humanitarian ways that in the long run have a history of giving better outcomes, but these are not populist, don’t stir up the people, take a long time, don’t make headlines, open the door for the shock jocks to have a go at you and in most cases don’t win extra votes. Howard above all was all about winning the next election and nearly every policy he implemented had that tenet underpinning it. His immigration policy was all about that, and it did win him two elections, especially one where he was almost certain to lose until he pulled the race card. Did it in the end make good immigration policy? Of course not. It was highly prejudicial, threw away human rights, damaged children, was inefficient and cost an unbelievable amount of wasted money to implement and run (in fact obscene amounts).

    So there has to be better ways than that, but to try to support and annunciate them is to be called soft, a PC advocate and wanting to open the floodgates to rooination. I’m just so sick of that when those accusing you just advocate policies that destroy human lives yet are worse failures than the humanitarian route at a greater monetary and human cost to boot.

  63. Sparta:

    “Poor Reb, all comments know substance”

    Why thank you Sparta. I’ll take that as a compliment.

    Whereas in your case, it’s “all comments – no substance”.

  64. Oh Adrian you mean like Chamberlain’s solution. Sure, passive resistance can work against a country like England as in the case of India, but give us some of your proof against the likes of Sadam or Idi Amin, the Generals in Burma or the murdering animal in Zimbabwe. How many millions die before your solutions kick in. Military solutions do not always work either but it sure worked to free your ancestral homeland with the help of some of my ancestors & in the end will be shown to have saved lives in Iraq.

  65. “in the end will be shown to have saved lives in Iraq.”

    Really? And how will that ‘be shown’? Is there a parallel universe where these claims can be tested? If so, can you provide a link?

    IThat claim is in the same category as ‘interest rates will always be lower under a Liberal Government’. Truth is we will never know. But it seems clear to me that the Bush invasion caused any number of unnecessary deaths. And you can see how appreciative the locals are by reading this link.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7793457.stm

    BTW, are you the same Carlyle that claimed Nelson was going to destroy Rudd? Lol.

  66. 66. Nature 5 . Rudd will self destruct. Unfortunately he will cause a lot of pain first.
    It will be years before there is an honest assessment re Iraq & now it is up to the Iraq people. They have choices they never had before. All the lies about the oil being taken over by the US & the US setting up a permanent military base plus many other claims are conveniently being forgotten.

  67. No not Chamberlain’s solution, now you really show your ignorance on commentating about something it appears you know little about. I suggest you go back and read up on the options given to the Bush administration other than invasion, especially since it was known Saddam wasn’t a threat and had a decimated military.

    As to stealing oil, corrupt US companies purloining Iraqi and US funds and the permanent US bases along with the largest by a long way embassy every built, sorry they will not be forgotten at all. That is just your wish and how can something be “forgotten” when the Iraqi people will wake up with the presence of these things for as long as they exist in Iraq.

    Carlyle how many millions die because of the interference and military interventions gone wrong. How much long term damage and instability is caused by these “just” campaigns.

    Have a look at history Carlyle and see how democracies and stability comes about. Apart from Japan, which has some complex mitigating circumstances, there has been no successful forced democracy, and Iraq will not be another exception.

  68. Carlyle

    ” Rudd will self destruct.”

    You mean he won’t be destroyed by Nelson as you originally predicted? Lol!

    As for:

    “They have choices they never had before”

    You are correct. They can now “Shoewhack”

    “Shoewhack (v.) To assault someone with footwear in such a way as to humiliate that individual, especially at a moment of supposed triumph or obvious hypocrisy.

    A shoewhacking generally involves an element of surprise.

    It is especially appropriate for individuals guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors who have for reasons of wealth and power nevertheless escaped any other punishment for their iniquity.”

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