Booze and Violence

Watching the last instalment of the Howard Year’s tonight, I was struck by the comment that the problem in the indigenous community was due to the “violence they’d been subjected to and it was, it was report without number of how alcohol was at the heart of the destruction of these Communities”. And then I thought back to comments made in the program by former cabinet members.

Joe Hockey:

You know, every day was a case of strapping on the jacket, the bulletproof vest, loading up the guns and hoping that you don’t come back with too many holes.

Tony Abbott:

But it’s one thing to pledge undying love late at night after lots of booze, another thing in the cold light of day to actually do some of these things.

Fran Kelly:

Back in 2003, deep in the corridors of Parliament House over a late night drink even John Howard’s most loyal lieutenant, Tony Abbott, assured him that this term there would be a handover, that Peter Costello would soon be King.

Now I know that Hockey was just using an analogy, but the Abbott comment just shows that drink is all the way through the community. Why is it OK for politicians to be drunk, making promises that they do not intend to keep whilst running the country, while at the same time they take the drink away from others?

In parliaments around Australia recently we have had politicians from both sides forced to either apologise or resign from office because of disgraceful behaviour while drunk.

Perhaps we need to have a breathe test on all politicians? If they are over the legal limit for driving, then they should not be conducting any parliamentary business?

joni

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96 Responses

  1. Comparing a night on the piss, with all the “OMG” moments that come with that, against a systemic, community wide, mass alcoholism problem doesn’t make any sense to me

  2. Drug testing too!

  3. I don’t understand what you mean scaper.. do you think all Pollies should be drug tested or breath tested?

  4. another girl – another planet

    I think scaper has taken a shine to you. Lol.

    But your point is a good one. As joni suggests the link between alcohol and violence is much more pronounced on aboriginal communities that elsewhere.

  5. Nature 5

    It is creepy, but a girl learns to deal with these types

    I guess it’s some kind of late night, bottom-of-the-bottle type thing 😉

  6. “do you think all Pollies should be drug tested or breath tested?”

    I suggest intelligence tested.

  7. “Why is it OK for politicians to be drunk, making promises that they do not intend to keep whilst running the country, while at the same time they take the drink away from others?”

    Gee I don’t know, maybe because there were 6 year olds getting raped by packs of teenagers. I must have missed the news – has this been happening in parliament recently? There must be some reason for such a stupid comment. No doubt you were one of the people calling it an invasion ! I’m happy for the politicians to make whatever rules were necessary to stop such disgusting abuse of poor kids.

    As for politicians getting drunk – well that shouldn’t be happening either when they’re making decisions that affect everyone.

  8. I agree politicians should not get drunk especially at parliament.

    However unless you have lived in Abiriginal communities and towns you cannot comment from experience. I relieved for the Bank in Brewarrina for over 12 months in a row and witnessed the horrific damage alcohol does to aboriginal communities. The violence against each other, the violence against any memeber of the community, the depravation of food and medical assistance for the children so alcohol and gambling can happen. The demand of pension money from the old by the young through intimidation and threats.

    We had Aboriginal staff and some of my best friends are aboriginal. Two of them even stated they cannot drink alcohol as it makes them violent. As I am a white man I was not even permitted to go to the assistance of any aboriginal customer who had fallen over or hurt themselves in the public space as it could be perceived that I was going to hurt them. Only the aboriginal staff could go out and assist. This was at the instruction of our aboriginal staff for our safety.

    Our aboriginal staff could not even attend the Aboriginal medical Service in Brewarrina as they were NOT of the same clan. They had to drive over 100kn for medical attention for themselves and their children.

    I am sick to death of do gooders in this area. It is a matter of trying to stem the out of control self destruction of communities.

    For heaven sakes crackers were banned because a few children were injured, yet we continue to allow the consumption of alcohol in communities that are imploding from within.

  9. Shane,

    I have no problems in admitting that there is a problem of grog in the community, not just the indigenous one. Just that our politicians seem to be a bit hypocritical saying that one section of the community has a problem.

    Andy

    I do not deny the abuse of children at all, just the fact that grog affects all, but nice attempt at deflection.

  10. joni

    It is a fact that the level of alcohol related violence in aboriginal communties is much higher, even our own aboriginal staff stated the same. I agree there is good and bad in all communities but denying reality and pandering to do gooders does nothing to arrest the situation in those communities where the alcohol related violence is up to 100 times the average for the rest of Australia.

  11. I was trying to explain to a friend the other day just how bad some Aboriginal communities can be. I’ve only seen a few in the NT but was totally shocked by what I saw there. It’s hard to get across to people just how bad things are, lamely “Third world” was the best I could come up with. Alcohol was clearly a major contributer the awfulness and something must be done. Whether the answer is these total bans that I don’t know. I have a big problem with one rule for blackfella’s and another for the rest but I have a big problem with what I saw as well.

  12. I also have a conscience issue regarding rules for one town and rules for another yet the violence and self destruction I witnessed in Brewarrina, Bourke, Cobar, Walgett and others has overridden my conscience on this occasion.

    I witnessed women with bones broken and cigarette burns all over their bodies from violent partners who tortured them to get the womans money who was trying to keep it to feed the kids.

  13. I hear you shaneinqld, it really can be appalling eh, problems problems problems but very few answers

  14. I tend to accept the opinion of some indigenous leaders such as Noel Pearson and Warren Mundine. They don’t seem to see it as different rules for different groups in society.

    They see an alcohol fuelled crisis that is a cause for much of the social dislocation in some indigenous communities. Rape, violence and loss of heritage.

    Mundine and Pearson see rape and violence as problems that require immediate action, they’re not among the issues that can wait for a longer term solution.

  15. Tom of Melbourne

    Agee 100%

  16. Tom – I guess I do defer to their better judgment (Pearson, Mundine) as they obviously have a far better understanding then me. I was just having a look around the web for any other Koorie leaders of similar status who disagree but cant seem to find any who are against the grog bans.(there might be some, I didn’t delve too deep)

    There is a number who are not happy with other aspects of the Intervention but none seem to be against grog bans. I guess that says it all really

  17. The alcohol issue is a big problem at these communities, but so too is it in some other communities. These were simple living hunters and gatherers and the white man did a George Dubbyas on them, imposed the white man way of life (capitalism). The were subject to tribal law, and predominately the were a peaceful people. We took away the structures and the powers of the tribal elders, deeming their punishment unacceptable by our standards, but failed to help out with a replacement authority to keep the peace. If we get any group of teenagers and men with nothing to do, mix it with alcohol and no authority to answer to, then we get the picture. All colours of Government have just thrown money at the issue as a feel good measure, but the Rodent was the closest to a racisist PM we have seen, he was worse than Pauling Hansen. That he did this intervention at the last minute, was a tactic only. A tactic to try to show that 12 years of pure racism and hatred for the Murrays was a figment of our imagination. He was so inwardly focused that he thought the Australian people would blindly believe him.

  18. another girl

    It was not only appaling it was heart breaking as there was absolutely nothing I could do.

    Feeling helpless while your heart weeps for others in trouble is not something I enjoy at all.

  19. Just to be clear on this, my post was not about the intervention – it was the fact that our politicians seem to think that it is OK for them to be working whilst pissed.

  20. joni

    It is NOT OK for anyone to be pissed while working. Others would be sacked for drinking alcohol and politicians should also be sacked unless it is after hours. No ifs not buts

  21. And to clarify my own opinion – I think it is a disgrace for politicians to lack such self control that they attend parliament under the influence.

    Who do they think they are, marketing executives??

    It is also highly unusual (unbelievable?) for anyone to be so drunk that they cannot recall whether they saw a naked woman at a strip club!!

  22. Sorry joni, I know, we just kinda went of on a tangent – apologies

  23. Tom

    Was he at parliament house when he went to a legal strip club?

    Please let me know what laws he broke? Otherwise we might suspect that you are trolling.

  24. I don’t think I care if the pollies have had a drink or two while they go about their business. I certainly would have a problem if they’re drunk. Perhaps as scaper suggested we should drug test em, if only for a laugh every now and then when one of em gets caught

  25. One of the biggest problems is the lack of safe houses. Imagine a situation where if there is violence, that women and children have no alternative but to return to the house where they have been abused.

    This is problem enough in white societies, and so multiply this situation of nowhere to go in indigenous communities.

  26. How very true Min and quite a scary thought

  27. Min,

    I remember as a boy of 7 or 8 years old, running away from home cos I was afraid of my abusive father when he was drunk. I used to run away to the reverand’s house across the road who would take me in for the night.

    It’s not a pleasant experience, being terrified of your own father at that age.

  28. Me, trolling?

    Kevin is in New York with a few mates, has too much to drink, and goes to a strip club. Nothing wrong so far, in fact many would suggest that this is at the higher end of good behaviour for a politician when overseas – as Kevin even managed to retain his trousers!

    The problem is what happened next. He called Therese, and owned up, but said he could not recall seeing a stripper!!! He’s since assured us all of this!!

    Now, I’m all in favour of drinking, particularly when the drinking involves me and lots of it. Despite this I’ve never been so drunk that I an unable to remember whether or not I saw a naked woman gyrating in front of me.

    We used to have a blokey, beer drinking champ for PM, now we have this. When I say Australian standards are in decline, this is yet another example.

    Nothing illegal, just something that is highly odorous. Smells like BS, probably tastes like it too.

  29. “We used to have a blokey, beer drinking champ for PM”

    Yeah, his name was Bob Hawke.

    How you could possibly use ‘blokey” in the same sentence as “Kevin Rudd” is beyond me.

    “Prissy” I’d be prepared to accept, but “blokey” come on Tom, pull the other one…

    🙂

  30. Give it a break Tom. Can you imagine the salivating from certain sections of the media if Rudd had said that Yes he remembered a stripper. And did you see (heavy breathing from the journo) nnnnippples…and what color were they and did it turn you on…

    Wise choice from Rudd, just say that you can’t remember.

  31. Of course I was referringto Hawke, tose were the days…

    Politicians as role models…wistful sigh

  32. So Min, it’s OK for a politician to tell a white, or other coloured, lie, as long as it keeps the journalists and opposition from annoying them?? Fine as long as we all understand that we are setting this standard.

  33. david | December 9, 2008 at 10:23 am

    Good post david.

    Without being racist (or at least trying not to be), it is the effect that alcohol has on the metabolism of the large majority of aborigines that is the real problem.

    While caucasians have had 40 thousand years (or longer?) to adapt to alcohol, this was thrown at the aboriginal community after developing in isolation without anything comparable. Their biology cannot cope. There are similar reactions amongst cauacasians (the cheap drunk) but only in small minorities, whereas within the aboriginal community it is in the majority.

    Ideally, plenty of community support and education ‘should’ provide avenues for the safe consumption of alcohol. Unfortunately, we are well beyond that. So restrictions really are the only viable answer.

    This was one good thing that came out of the intervention. Everything else the government did begs the question, what was the real incentive?

    So back to your question Joni, we cannot lump everyone in the same basket. Call it racist if you must, but there are clearly specific problems targetted to specific communities.

    Habitual lying is something we should be targetting to politicians, irrespective of race, colour or creed.

  34. Tom re: While caucasians have had 40 thousand years (or longer?) to adapt to alcohol…

    Soo, alcohol is a substance that one can adapt to??

    So this is why the white fella can handle the booze but the black fella can’t?

  35. From a man whom I respect greatly, Mick Dodson.

    Healing body, mind and spirit – it’s about time we took a stand:
    http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=1042&page=0

    …Notwithstanding complicating factors such as diminished life expectancy and high levels of incarceration, if we want to do the proper inter-generational thing we must take seriously our responsibility to pass on our cultures and traditions down the generations. And we must reject the nonsense that violence, the objectification of women and other anti-social behaviours are the “Aboriginal way”.

    Let’s just get this absolutely straight. Violence is not ‘blackfella way’. We simply have to stop corrupting our cultures in this way. Culture is a safe, sustaining thing – not a site of misery and woe for our women and girls.

  36. Min

    I would hazard a guess that that is true.

    Generally, people who inbide a lot can build up a sort of resistance; I used to spend every night at the pub, and I could drink till stumps and still be fine.

    These days, a six pack has me going 🙂

    Without any emperical evidence to back this up, I would guess that over a period of time, a similar resistnance is ingrained into communities that have had a long exposure to alcohol.

    As I said, I am only assuming, but now that you mention it, I might google and see what I find.

  37. Absolute garbage Tom. I kin ‘olds me drink. Right-O. You had better ask the wife and kids.

  38. Min

    Haven’t found anything that relates directly to the Aborigines, but this paper relates to the American Indian, who have suffered a similar fate.

    “It appears that the development of alcoholism is not a case of genetics versus the environment; it is one of genetics and the environment,” says Dr. Ting-Kai Li,

    http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v17n3/p18.html

    As I said, it verges on being racist, but, I think when a community has been isolated for so long, it can affect the entire community similarly.

  39. @comment #3

    My comment was alluding to that the politicians should not only be alcohol tested but also drug tested…did anyone here hear about the incidents in 2006 concerning a certain government minister or what was found when the young libs trashed their offices after the election loss???

    Drug use is rife in society and my personal opinion is that a person has the right to take whatever in his or her own time as it is their body…I draw the line at people being under the influence whilst at work for obvious reasons.

    What is this bottom of a bottle thing you talk about?

    I was partaking in a glass of milk and a couple of Tim Tams when I wrote my comment and to Human Nature…I don’t take a shine to the person at all…being happily married for nearly twenty years, thanks.

    As for the other person that took yet another chance at a pathetic snipe…as expected from such a spineless bastard!!!

  40. MIn

    I was in Moree relieving for the Bank when a visiting group of Native American Indians visited for a cultural night at the showgrounds to interact with the local aboriginal population. I was one of only 4 whites who attended as I was invited by an aboriginal member of rotary.

    Hundreds of aboriginals arrived and we were circling an area lit with fire and indians in their native headress.

    The sad thing was once the Indians tried to talk to the aboriginals to try and explain they have been there with the alcohol and violence and how they need to start taking responsibility themselves for their culture over 90% of the aboriginals left. It seemed they were there to simply protest and scream about land rights and blame the white fella for everything.

    When I went up and spoke to the indians they were so down hearted at the response and told me it will need to come from within the indigenous community before things will change and they need to get past the balme game. The indians were wonderful people and spoke of their long battle with liquor and violence as well.

    It was just so very sad that so many left when it wasn’t going to be the battle ground they expected it to be.

    Mind you I was on tender hooks being 1 of only 4 whites and seeing the crowd drinking and lusting for a land rights and blame speech.

    I know this is not all aborignals at all, just an experience of mine.

  41. re 39

    Strange days indeed, I suggest that politicians should be intelligence tested, and apparently this is spineless!!!

    My mistake, no need to test them after all, the result is entirely predictable.

    No need to test some of our more odd contributors either, for exactly the same reason.

  42. Tom, I think that one can scrub the furphy of ‘genetics’ and place the blame fairly and squarely at the the foot of ‘community’. At present society is struggling with a teen drinking problem..where is this different from the obvious and severe problems within indigenous communities. It’s teen, black, blue or brindled, therefore community and nothing to do with the racial heritage any particular teenager.

    Being a family historian I think of the abuse hurled at the Irish who were supposedly pre-disposed to the demon drink. Reason given at the time: the Irish are racially inferior and can’t hold their drink like a true English gentleman. Many scientific tests were conducted such as phrenology to prove this theory. And it was agreed, the Irish are an inferior race of people. With due apologies to all who have Irish ancestors (as per hubby).

  43. No need to test some of our more odd contributors either, for exactly the same reason.

    What did i do? (runs)
    🙂


    Booze only brings out how you really feel inside. But it is easy to blame everything around you but yourself.

  44. Min

    A lot of the reading I have been doing is saying the same thing, that it is the sociological and not biological influence that is heaviest here.

    The fact that the Aborogines did not have a sociological equivalent to the ‘local pub’ or friendly drink, it is a foreign concept to them.

  45. And so we continue with the blame game. It’s the white fellas fault, it’s the black fellas fault. And so what is the solution?

  46. I don’t know what the solution is I honestly have no idea, I look forward to the day when these problems are behind us all and we can truly call ourselves a community of equals in all aspects.

  47. Shane @ 40, I think you’ll find that American Indians that travel to represent their culture and to observe others, have an interesting story to tell.

    Many/most have exactly the same sense of dispossession as our own indigenous people. There are many Australian aboriginals that travel in the same way, they engage very effectively with other cultures.

    The Americans have managed to develop more learning centres, there are more role models, as the population is greater.

    Many indigenous Americans have a great sense of heritage, and they are very compelling in how they relate it. They have a sensational musical, dance and artistic heritage.

    The key is to assist the development of similar compelling leaders in Australia.

    Suppressing alcohol consumption is a good first step, but it won’t resolve the problem, this can only come from a sense of heritage, respect and self worth.

  48. whether people “think” they can “hold” their drink better than others (or not) is a moot point.

    The reality is, that the excessive consumption of alcohol will still have the same physiological and pyschological effects (and associated health risks and problems) regardless of one’s “tolerance” to consume more drinks than someone else.

  49. Tom of Melbourne

    Very true.

  50. Am thinking of a lecture in criminal law by David Heilpern. David put it: how do you reduce criminal behaviour? What effect is there in increasing penalties, for example additional years inprisonment or even the death penalty. Answer: more severe penalties have little or no effect on the crime rate. What effects the crime rate is the likelihood of being caught.

    So we need more policing (as distinct from harsher penalties) thereby increasing the likelihood of being caught. We need safe houses for women and children. We need the perpetrators removed from the communities, and not just for a couple of days in the clink but removed to ‘elsewhere’. We need strong support services for women so that they are not bullied into having to take the person back again for fear, fear of being bashed, for fear that they will have no money to feed and clothe their children.

    And that’s for starters.

  51. Tom of Melbourne:

    “Suppressing alcohol consumption is a good first step, but it won’t resolve the problem, this can only come from a sense of heritage, respect and self worth.”

    hear-bloody-hear! As ANY professional that has experience in helping people withdraw from any form of substance abuse/addiction will tell you without fail, if you take away the alcohol – voluntarily or otherwise – it hs to be replaced with some other form of behavioural activity to avoid the person relapsing into their old ways.

    Personally I can see no better alternative than for a downtrodden group of people to take renewed pride in their culture, in particular reigniting their interest in language and the arts.

    This could become the “shining light” of Australia if only politicians would look for long-term workable solutions IN A CONSULTATIVE manner, rather than just enforcing an anglo-based paternalistic, opportunistic vote-grabbing populist form of “intervention.”

  52. Min

    I agree with you but where is ‘elsewhere’ ?

  53. Thanks reb. This is one of the few political issues that I have a genuine concern about, and it must transcend political boundaries. There are some issues that are too important to be political, and this is one.

    I think study of indigenous cultures (not just Australian) should be an important part of the education curriculum. While there is some attention to it, it is light. There should be a program where elders visit all schools and provide a perspective of our indigenous heritage, performers and artists should tour schools each term. There should be exhibitions and performances in shopping centres…etc There should be an indigenous version of the Archibald prize.

    AND THE TAXPAYER SHOULD FUND THE LOT.

    We’d get far better value for this than a range of other programs.

    We should replace the Queens Birthday with a public holiday recognising and supporting reconciliation, a celebration of indigenous culture (and by the way, we should replace 26 January with a “Federation Day”)

    Out of this, some would say we are creating an “aboriginal industry”. I think these types of policies would create an appreciation for our unique heritage, we would develop empathy among us whites, and self respect among indigenous people.

    I think the next generation will be proud of us if we developed these policies. Certainly they will scorn us if we don’t.

  54. Good point Shane. I would suggest that ‘elsewhere’ might need to be a regional centre and the same conditions such as AVOs enforced. I’m not certain about this one, but from reading it seems that very few AVOs are given as court orders due to the difficulty of enforcing them as almost always the perpetrator is returned to the community. Plus there is a suggestion that courts do not treat violence against indigenous women with the same seriousness.

  55. Totally agree Tom.

    I saw Archie Roach and Ruby Hunter in concert a few months ago, reciting songs and stories from their childhood, and I reckon I learned more about the real aboriginal experience during those two hours than anywhere else.

    It was quite heartwrenching.

  56. Hello Tom. A number of years ago my crew were lucky enough to have local Auntie’s visit their school where the Aunties provided children with instruction via dance and chalk drawings depicting reasons of ‘this is why we are here…and this is the reason about why the country is to be respected’.

    If we don’t develop some sort of ‘industry’ then all this will be lost.

  57. Min

    Once again I agree there seems to be major difficulty in enforcing AVOs. You are correct the perpetrator is returned to the community. I think the courts may treat it seriously however there seems to be this stigma that violence is part of the culture ( which it is not ) and as such a lesser sentence seems to be imposed.

    I have seen perpetrators removed from the community and placed in other communities with disastrous results as the actions continue against new vistims. This is why I asked where ‘elsewhere’ is as I comletely agree with you but to expose a peaceful community to the actions of these perpetrators is to create a climate of fear and violence in 2 communities whereas it previously existed in only 1.

  58. Shane. The only reason that the 2nd community would be subject to violence or the threat of violence is because the 2nd community is unable to protect itself.

    For example, a white bloke is the subject of an AVO and can’t come within say 5kms of his family moves to another suburb. Does this then mean that he then is able to commit violence in Chermside instead of in Toowong? Of course not, because the good residents of Chermside have the backup of the constabulary.

    It’s all to do with lack of resources and lack of backup for the residents.

  59. Min

    I have seen perpetrators and I am speaking of white ones as well here who move to another town and hook up with another woman and repeat the same behaviour. This is what I mean by the 2nd community suffering as well.

  60. “being happily married for nearly twenty years, thanks”
    The evidence abounds! And from your own posts!

    Talk about delusional. Personally, I pity the wife and child.

  61. If this was in the press, it would read …**Drunk MILF’s boozy Friday shame*, .. every Friday, week after week, this boozer risks her life and others by getting tanked and the DRIVING home. Once home she gets angry with her daughter despite the pleading of her husband and daughter.

    Repentant on Sunday, re-offending on Friday.. Kids cringe in FEAR!!…

    Father says… we love her, but we dread Fridays!

    Imagine the outrage

    :

  62. Now thats a ramp but it’s based on the presented facts by the victims themselves … I’m sure there would be calls for DoCs intervention across the board

  63. Let me see…so far on this thread you and that other blow in cast doubt on my ability as an income earner, a husband and a father!!!

    I put up my email as a challenge to you and the other pissant to have a go at me via this means than this blog but you are too gutless as suspected…just like to abuse people that you don’t even know to justify shortcomings in your own personality…quite pathetic actually!

    I challenge you again to put your gripes on an email and we can meet and sort it out…I’m sure my family would like your pity too you funking hero…more like a gutless mangy dog in my opinion.

    If you don’t like the way I post then too bad as I’m not changing for anyone…in fact if it offends you then don’t read them or better still piss off somewhere else…waste of space!

  64. “just like to abuse people that you don’t even know to justify shortcomings in your own personality”

    That statement brings to mind a certain old cliche. Something along the lines of pot, kettle, black.

    And now even resorting to threats of violence. Pathetic, very, very pathetic.

  65. When I started contributing to Blogocracy, I copped a lot of harsh commentary from those that found it inconvenient to believe that I’d ever been an ALP member (very active in fact).

    Following a particularly annoying exchange, Tim Dunlop said that people could only judge a contributor on the basis of what they posted.

    Very fair point. If you post a view advocating continued limitations on militant union activity, many people will assume a particular political orientation. This may be unfair.

    When others post dim-witted, self important opinion some will consider them a dickhead. This may be fair.

  66. Careful Tom. You may miss the opportunity to become Hon Mayor of that new outback town. And I know how much you’d miss that.

    BTW, there’s one aspect of outback tavel you didn’t in – the flies. Lol. But then again I suspect that there are no flies on you. Lol.

  67. Don’t get me started on the flies!!

    They’re so big some barbeque them!! A blowie drum stick, it is a favourite of many Territorians.

    It is preferable to some of the so called food I’ve had there.

  68. Violence…really?

    I suppose in your world if two people that have a problem with each other meet face to face to sort it out is violence that in some cases touches on slander…pathetic!

    But I suppose that is the nature of blogging…people like to hide behind their monitors and slag off at other people instead of their message and I always wondered if the people are as ugly in real life as their petty demeanor on the blogosphere…makes men out of mice…LOL!!!

  69. “makes men out of mice…LOL!!!”

    Yes, we can tell.

  70. You and your ilk are prime examples!

  71. Well I should hope it doesn’t make a man out of me.

    BTW Been man enough to show Mrs Mack what you wrote about her for anyone to read forever and anon?

  72. Yep…she acknowledges that she has a problem after her operation and she is real impressed with the comments here too!

    This thread was about alcohol and the abuse, there is not many people out there who are not affected in some way by this.

    I was going to bring the issue up that most of these people have had a parent or grandparent with a problem and I believe it could be hereditary opposed to the possible influence by actions witnessed by one when in childhood…a posible cause of this black dog thing.

    I will discuss the topic or deflect the constant stream of abuse…I’m easy.

  73. If anyone is seeking to teach me a lesson, I’ll be in Jimmy Watsons at 6. I’ll be the one already full, I look like Sir Les Patterson, but bald, fatter and my teeth aren’t as good.

    If I look like I’m getting lucky, please don’t interrupt.

    And wait your turn, there’s usually a queue of people seeking some form of retribution.

  74. A queue eh?

    On a good week I can fill a stadium with people who want to have a go at me.

    Just how I like it!

  75. Sorry I’ve been away for 48hrs…

    Wow! Scaper.. I’ve never seen truth hurt so much!

    Your post’s are the angriest I’ve seen for a long while. On blogs flames are common but your reactions to any repudiation of your own views are something to be hold!

    You need to settle guy, you need to step back and THINK about the reasons you get such responses. You need to think about why, with all the comments that get posted your’s often attract criticism. You need to think about why it is that you feel it’s OK for you to state your POV on others thoughts, yet your so defensive about others doing the same with yours. You need to think about all of this…

    You need to step back, listen and think

  76. Another Planet, you might have a valid point or two, however…I will not bend to other’s point of view concerning my wife or how I decide to raise my child.

    I remember how you tried to castigate me because I choose to monitor my daughter’s Internet traffic!

    I just could not believe what I was reading so posted the link at Jack’s and there was a couple of interesting observations to say the least.

    http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/jacktheinsider/index.php/theaustralian/comments/book_burning_in_the_digital_age/P250/

    Anyway, now that I’m taking a few months off to recharge I should imagine that my outlook will be more relaxed.

    I therefore withdraw my offensive post.

  77. Fair enough scaper – for what it’s worth I have already seen the responses, I’m not bothered by them in the least. That’s what blogging is all about. You mentioned you policy with your daughter, I disagreed and said so and that is how it should be. Your certainly not under any obligation to agree with my thoughts in the same way I’m not with yours.

    I still think running off to get back up was wel, high-schoolish but enough of that.

    I here many people say good things about you, although a fair number express concern or shock or something about your writings lately. Perhaps a break is in order

    Looking forward to reading your contributions when you return. Most likely we will go head to head all over again on some matters, and surely agree on others

  78. No probs…likewise.

  79. ZOMFG! Tom ,what have you done!?

    The flies will crawl across your eyeballs before you ever become mayor.
    BTW, I was waiting for you at 6 & you didn’t show, what gives?
    Didn’t you see me in the corner in my seedy raincoat?

  80. 76. scaper

    If I recall, a number of us supported your position re, scapette, and the net? Yet on Jack’s you talk about “these people, on blogocrats”…not “some of the posters”…you implied everyone posting as being against you…not everyone reads all the posts on a thread…might need to be a tad more diplomatic, ‘ole mate!

    …not having a go, just pointing out…

  81. TB, I did not realise that it looks like it was aimed at everybody.

    Oh well…it wasn’t but was a heads up for this site at least.

    Did not draw Elise unfortunately.

  82. scaper, I knew that – and trusted our history that you would take it as meant – bloody pity about Elise though, its almost like old times with Tony and Carlyle and JMc firing on the China thread!

  83. “If I recall, a number of us supported your position re, scapette, and the net? Yet on Jack’s you talk about “these people, on blogocrats”TB

    Yep, on rereading my own statements on the thread in question, after following it back from scaper’s link to Jack’s thread, I think it’s pretty clear that I too supported scaper’s position in that instance.

    From the responses (reflexive & unsubstantiated) at Jack’s I’d say that neither Jack, nor some of the others, read the thread in full. Unsavoury generalising.

    I have a lot of respect for Jack & his general objectivity, I should say.

  84. TB, come to think of it I used the same tactic to get Tony and Carlyle over here at Bolt’s place…”I’m copping stick and I want more balance.”

    A bit sneaky I’m afraid.

  85. Sneaky but an effective tactic apparently. Can’t argue with that.

  86. T-boss, Jack is a great bloke…I’ll leave it at that.

  87. scaper@86

    Agreed.

  88. Ah, so you had a cunning plan all along eh scaper?

    interesting

    I was being honest with my comment to you earlier today and silly me, I believed yours.

    Ok then – no problems

  89. No, not a plan at all…it just happened and I did mean my post to you today, looking forward to your posts here.

  90. TB, come to think of it I used the same tactic to get Tony and Carlyle over here at Bolt’s place…”I’m copping stick and I want more balance.”
    A bit sneaky I’m afraid.

  91. This is normal, at this time of year people have there lives upturned buy christmas demands and then blogging with the online friends so many types of personalities mixed.

    I hope when we have a lapse and let the stress out we arnt so judged on a person level. Over defending yourself dosnt help either.

    I believe there is a special sexual tension building up here and scaper and another girl seem to be at the center of this mysterious
    encounter. I like to see you two get drunk and fight in a tub of jelly.

    Now group hug ( i need to steal someone wallet. im broke)

  92. I like to see you two get drunk and fight in a tub of jelly.

    Aw shucks sweetness, for me to do that with anybody is not totally out of the question I suppose(hell, anythings possible)

    But it would take way more money then you”ll even earn this year, let alone have the discretionary to spend after your clinic bills an all 😉

  93. awwww . forgot to close a tag – dammit… ruined the whole thing :pout:

  94. (hell, anythings possible)

    Making a list. we will talk later.

  95. lol- ok kitten

    Once you’ve finished the whole course (no skipping dose’s now!) 😉

    get back to me 😀

  96. Well Human Toilet @79, I don’t know how you could have missed me either.

    I had my botoxed forehead buried in the surgically enhanced cleavage of a peroxide blond.

    In front of me was a reasonably orderly queue of politically correct union apologist types, all of whom had taken offense at something or other I’d said. Probably my occasional display of common sense – very occasional.

    I think botox is a marvellous medical innovation. Injecting poison into ones head to kill some nerves and turn back the ravages of time!. In many cases the only problem is that the poison isn’t stronger, and it doesn’t kill off more nerves.

    Devoting ones medical education into this worthy endeavour does illustrate the outstanding values of our community, doesn’t it? Injecting poison into wrinkles is so much more fulfilling than looking after complaining ill people.

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